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Naming and Shaming Fare Dodgers

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Stigy

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Either of which they could have been issued with after starting at a station without visible, or without any, ticketing facilities, respectively. So again, people who have done nothing that warrants being prosecuted.
Which would make a mockery of the PF system surely? If you get a PF because of a ‘legitimate mistake’ and fail to pay or appeal (or both), surely it’s right to be prosecuted for a Byelaw offence?

Even more so regarding a UFN surely, as these amount to the TOC saying there’s no offence been committed? Failure to pay a UFN amounts to fare evasion (in most cases), it’s just that all that can reasonably by proved is a Byelaw.
 
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221129

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People keeping stating this, but that doesn't make it true.
But it is true. Whether it should be or Not is a different matter, but that fact is it is an offence to join a train without a ticket where facilities to purchase one exist.
 

Bletchleyite

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Theft is theft, be it £2.20 or £20000.

Fare dodging is not theft. Your statement is about as accurate as people who keep spouting "software piracy is theft".

Neither is theft. Theft is defined as taking something with the intention to permanently deprive.

Fare dodging is its own offence under the Byelaws and RoRA. Software piracy is copyright infringement. It really does help to describe the offences correctly.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Which would make a mockery of the PF system surely? If you get a PF because of a ‘legitimate mistake’ and fail to pay or appeal (or both), surely it’s right to be prosecuted for a Byelaw offence?

Even more so regarding a UFN surely, as these amount to the TOC saying there’s no offence been committed? Failure to pay a UFN amounts to fare evasion (in most cases), it’s just that all that can reasonably by proved is a Byelaw.
So perhaps the railways ought to move to taking up Penalty Fares and Unpaid Fares Notices in they way they are designed to be taken up, namely in the County Court - appropriate, given both are resolutions to what should be nothing more than a civil dispute! Failure to pay a civil parking charge from the Council doesn't result in you being prosecuted, unless of course you are a serial miscreant in that respect.

And again, if failure to pay a UFN represents fare evasion, then prosecute it as such. If there isn't the evidence to prosecute it as fare evasion, then there's no point in making such an unfounded accusation/suggestion!

There can be no doubt that you, as an RPI, encounter many people who are unpleasant, fare evaders and everything in between. But there is no point in tarring everyone with the same brush.
 

Stigy

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There can be no doubt that you, as an RPI, encounter many people who are unpleasant, fare evaders and everything in between. But there is no point in tarring everyone with the same brush.
And there lies the irony (tarring everyone with the same brush), as I’m not an RPI ;)

I think we can agree to disagree. Sometimes one just knows when something is fare evasion, they just can’t prove it. Sometimes a member of staff will report a person whom they know full well is intending to avoid their fare, but because they chose to walk off or not stick around for questioning, there’s onky enough evidence for a safe charge of a Byelaw. Experience counts for a lot in this industry.
 

sheff1

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But it is true. Whether it should be or Not is a different matter, but that fact is it is an offence to join a train without a ticket where facilities to purchase one exist.

If it is true, can you you please state under what legislation an offence is committed if, tomorrow morning, someone travelling from Doncaster to Kings Cross joins the 0930 train without a ticket ?
 

221129

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If it is true, can you you please state under what legislation an offence is committed if, tomorrow morning, someone travelling from Doncaster to Kings Cross joins the 0930 train without a ticket ?
Railway Bylaw 18(1)
 

sheff1

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Railway Byelaw 18(3) is clear that no person is in breach of Byelaw 18(1) if they join the 0930 at Doncaster without a ticket .
 

Fawkes Cat

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Railway Byelaw 18(3) is clear that no person is in breach of Byelaw 18(1) if they join the 0930 at Doncaster without a ticket .
Ok. I'll bite. (Edited to add - and I now see that someone else has taken you up on this too.)

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.
(Source:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw39AxUgygq_DrBTrJSz8z8t&cshid=1552861228003)

Which of 18(3)(i), (ii) or (iii) is going to be our salvation at Doncaster tomorrow morning?
 

sheff1

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Because an "authorised person" gave permission to travel [18(3)(iii)].

It is also likely that a notice [18(3)(ii)] will be at Doncaster but that is not essential as the authorised person test is passed.
 

AlterEgo

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So, I was browsing the news lately and came across this article:
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/names-naughty-fare-dodgers-devon-2651503

It highlights some of the names of the people who were stopped in the region for fare dodging, with their home address Street, where they were stopped, and fine including ticket cost.

I was wondering, despite the fact we all realise fare dodging is wrong, should we demonise people actively in the (local) media for a £2.20 fare dodge, as this is their reputation being tarnished.

Further, is this a part of a partership between GWR and the paper to prevent fare dodging, as say a deterrent or just a cheap score for a slow Newsday story, which is of course legal for any journalist to use courtroom details in the press in this sense.

Anyone seen this in other regions? I honestly felt more sad for the people in this article ending up with £800 costs over a tiny fare.

Many people think being prosecuted for ticket offences is a myth. The aim of naming those convicted is to highlight that it's definitely very real.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Because an "authorised person" gave permission to travel [18(3)(iii)].

It is also likely that a notice [18(3)(ii)] will be at Doncaster but that is not essential as the authorised person test is passed.
Who is this authorized person? And will their authority be of any use to the convicted criminals of Cornwall which this thread started with? Because if not, we can probably all find individual occasions when byelaw 18 will be a dead letter, but unless there's anything universal I don't really see how it progresses the argument here.
 

najaB

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Who is this authorized person?
Presumably the CEO of Grand Central who decided to go with a 'buy on board' policy instead of staffed ticket offices.
And will their authority be of any use to the convicted criminals of Cornwall which this thread started with?
Very little. But one should never let facts get in the way of Internet crusades.
 

sheff1

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And will their authority be of any use to the convicted criminals of Cornwall which this thread started with? Because if not, we can probably all find individual occasions when byelaw 18 will be a dead letter, but unless there's anything universal I don't really see how it progresses the argument here.

Of course it is of no use to the people mentioned in the article who are most unlikely to be reading this forum anyway. However, the post to which I originally replied made a 'universal' statement which, as I said, is one which is often made. Indeed, follow up posts confirmed that point.

Obviously, in most cases joining a train without a valid ticket where ticketing facilities were available is an offence, but there of plenty of circumstances where it is not and I think that people who are reading this forum would prefer to see the truth regarding ticketing matters rather than an abbreviated version which does not tell the full story.
 
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sheff1

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But one should never let facts get in the way of Internet crusades.

Posts which, with regularity, put forward the myth that anyone joining a train without a valid ticket where ticketing facilities were available is automatically committing an offence do, indeed, have no basis in fact. I would not, though, necessarily consider such posts to be part of a crusade.
 

Puffing Devil

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And being in breach of Byelaw 18 is theft?


Does breach a breach of Byelaw 18 constitute fare evasion? Do all stations have obviously located ticketing facilities? Until the answer to both is yes, it's fare from simples.

Byelaw 18 has no place in society, and no-one in breach of it should have their name smeared. If it's fare evasion, prosecute it as such under RoRA. If there isn't sufficient evidence to prove it, you can't call it evasion, so just issue a PF!

Feel free to split hairs. Of course, Byelaw breaches are not theft in the true legal sense, allow me a little hyperbole on an internet forum. The Railway is a public service, funded by public money. Whether or not that service is now operated on a for-profit basis is a matter for another discussion, much like the privatisation of Prisons and the Probation Service, is another discussion for another thread.

Failing to pay for that service takes money from the public purse and there needs to be a legal endpoint to the matter. I'm happy to see that as a Byelaw, which has a limited impact for many people's future, though there still needs to be a final sanction to prevent those who won't pay from taking advantage of those who do pay - either through fares or taxes.

Taking the matter to the County Court would reduce the burden of proof from reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities, making it easier for a TOC to secure a conviction, reducing some of the checks and balances in the current system. The redress would only be the costs of the action and the fare avoided - there would be no punitive element and nothing to stop repeat offenders. Collection would then fall to bailiffs appointed by the TOC - is that something you would want to see?

The system as it stands is not perfect, though pretty simple:

1) Buy a ticket as soon as you can or are obliged to
2) If caught out, pay the penalty fare or engage constructively with the TOC
3) Do not bury your head in the sand.

I'd be very surprised to see anyone in court who has followed steps 1-3. In fact, the majority of passengers seem to manage step 1.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Feel free to split hairs. Of course, Byelaw breaches are not theft in the true legal sense, allow me a little hyperbole on an internet forum. The Railway is a public service, funded by public money. Whether or not that service is now operated on a for-profit basis is a matter for another discussion, much like the privatisation of Prisons and the Probation Service, is another discussion for another thread.

Failing to pay for that service takes money from the public purse and there needs to be a legal endpoint to the matter. I'm happy to see that as a Byelaw, which has a limited impact for many people's future, though there still needs to be a final sanction to prevent those who won't pay from taking advantage of those who do pay - either through fares or taxes.

Taking the matter to the County Court would reduce the burden of proof from reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities, making it easier for a TOC to secure a conviction, reducing some of the checks and balances in the current system. The redress would only be the costs of the action and the fare avoided - there would be no punitive element and nothing to stop repeat offenders. Collection would then fall to bailiffs appointed by the TOC - is that something you would want to see?

The system as it stands is not perfect, though pretty simple:

1) Buy a ticket as soon as you can or are obliged to
2) If caught out, pay the penalty fare or engage constructively with the TOC
3) Do not bury your head in the sand.

I'd be very surprised to see anyone in court who has followed steps 1-3. In fact, the majority of passengers seem to manage step 1.
It's not even about splitting hairs. I meant the term "theft" in a general way - do you think that failing to use available ticketing facilities because you didn't realise they existed, for instance, is something that justifies being a criminal offence? Does that constitute anything malicious to you?

I would certainly favour more County Court based enforcement. For one, a CCJ is less of an issue to most people than a criminal conviction (even if non-recordable). And if someone does find themselves on the receiving end of a CCJ, they can eliminate it from their record and put the matter behind them by paying it up within the allotted time (usually 30 days or so). No such grace is given to honest individuals convicted under Byelaw 18.

If the TOCs truly used Byelaw 18 only to punish those who "seemed" up to no good, but where it couldn't be proven, I'd have a little more understanding. But that's simply not the case - it is used indiscriminately and in a way it simply wasn't intended to be used, as numerous posts in the Disputes & Prosecutions sections aver. Its previous sole purpose being to allow for the removal of ticketless passengers from the railway, it is only in relatively recent years that it has become a nice little earner, and a stick with which to beat the unwary, for the railways.

Ultimately, I agree that there ought to be sanctions, criminal if necessary, to discourage (fraudulent) fare evasion. But RoRA already exists for that, much as do a number of other laws (e.g. petrol station bilking). Byelaw 18 seeks to criminalise what is in almost any other industry or facet of life a civil matter between the two parties. There is no reason it can't be decriminalised if it doesn't reach the standards of RoRA, and instead dealt with by means of a predictable and fairer Penalty Fare, for instance.

I won't even go there about taxes and the like, as that has no relevance to the matter at hand. In terms of checks and balances, at least in the County Court there is a trained Judge (often a former solicitor/barrister), as opposed to some lay Magistrates in the Magistrates'. There is no reason the current system of Penalty Fares appeals can't interlace with the County Court system of recovery of unpaid Penalty Fares - and in fact, the current Regulations make (a currently pointless) provision for that. Penalty Fares are certainly punitive, or if they are not deemed sufficiently punitive then they can of course be increased.

The fact that most passengers manage step 1 is great. But then again, most passengers board at stations where the ticketing facilities are obvious, and don't require anything other than an ordinary A to B single or return. However, not all passengers come into that category. At many smaller stations ticketing facilities can be very non-obvious, or even if obvious, they may be inaccessible due to arrangements for crossing the line, or there may be a long queue. Alternatively they may not accept the payment method the passenger wants to use, or they may not sell the ticket the passenger is after. There are so many ways in which there might, for all practical purposes, be no ticketing facilities. It is OK for most, but there are a number of people who are entirely in the right (morally and/or legally) and yet who find their name smeared by an article such as the originally linked one. That simply isn't acceptable, and it wouldn't happen if it were all a civil matter.
 

Fawkes Cat

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. I meant the term "theft" in a general way - do you think that failing to use available ticketing facilities because you didn't realise they existed, for instance, is something that justifies being a criminal offence? Does that constitute anything malicious to you?

This does rather seem to be using a question that suits your argument. Let's try a different one instead:

- could any railway traveller reasonably believe that the intention was that they could make a journey without paying a fare for it?

If the answer to this is 'no', then anyone who has travelled without paying is trying to get an advantage that is not available to the law-abiding public. It is fairly obvious that this is unfair, and I think almost as obvious that this is immoral. So it's to be expected that it is legislated to be illegal, and that the law will be backed up with sanctions. Further (to get back to the OP's question) in British law the sanctions for being taken to court include your name and details being published.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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This does rather seem to be using a question that suits your argument. Let's try a different one instead:

- could any railway traveller reasonably believe that the intention was that they could make a journey without paying a fare for it?

If the answer to this is 'no', then anyone who has travelled without paying is trying to get an advantage that is not available to the law-abiding public. It is fairly obvious that this is unfair, and I think almost as obvious that this is immoral. So it's to be expected that it is legislated to be illegal, and that the law will be backed up with sanctions. Further (to get back to the OP's question) in British law the sanctions for being taken to court include your name and details being published.
But I don't think people are expecting the journey to be free. They just expect that they can pay onboard, for instance, if they don't see an obvious way to get their ticket.
 

najaB

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And if someone does find themselves on the receiving end of a CCJ, they can eliminate it from their record and put the matter behind them by paying it up within the allotted time (usually 30 days or so). No such grace is given to honest individuals convicted under Byelaw 18.
Byelaw 18 convictions are non-recordable so I'm not sure exactly what point you're attempting to make here?
Its previous sole purpose being to allow for the removal of ticketless passengers from the railway, it is only in relatively recent years that it has become a nice little earner, and a stick with which to beat the unwary, for the railways.
That's quite a serious accusation, do you have facts to back it up?
It is OK for most, but there are a number of people who are entirely in the right (morally and/or legally) and yet who find their name smeared by an article such as the originally linked one.
There are, and that's not good enough. But (and let's be generous here) if 1% of people who find themselves with a Byelaw 18 conviction are morally and/or legally in the right, that means that 99% are not. Which says to me, at least, that the problem isn't with the law itself but with the situations that lead to the edge cases. So what's needed isn't a wholesale change to the legislative framework but smaller, more customer-focused changes instead e.g. make electronic ticketing simpler and more accessible and increase the availability of ticket purchasing options. Which would help everyone, not just that 1% (and let's be honest, it's really a fraction of that).
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Byelaw 18 convictions are non-recordable so I'm not sure exactly what point you're attempting to make here?
Even a non-recordable conviction is a serious matter, that could prevent some people from having a career in their chosen field. A CCJ can be paid off with no further impact.

That's quite a serious accusation, do you have facts to back it up?
Look at it yourself - it's utterly implausible that it has directly costed GWR £160 to prosecute each of these cases, or to put it another way, that for 40 odd people it has cost them £6400. They are rattled off one after the next. There is no way it is costing them anything near that much - unless of course they are apportioning part of the cost of their revenue protection activities as a whole, which would be wholly inappropriate.

There are, and that's not good enough. But (and let's be generous here) if 1% of people who find themselves with a Byelaw 18 conviction are morally and/or legally in the right, that means that 99% are not. Which says to me, at least, that the problem isn't with the law itself but with the situations that lead to the edge cases. So what's needed isn't a wholesale change to the legislative framework but smaller, more customer-focused changes instead e.g. make electronic ticketing simpler and more accessible and increase the availability of ticket purchasing options. Which would help everyone, not just that 1% (and let's be honest, it's really a fraction of that).
But it's not good enough having 99% of convictions being safe. 100% must be, and if that cannot be guaranteed then we should not be letting companies like GWR prosecute cases. To redress the balance of power it is necessary either to abolish Byelaw 18, leading to an increase in more appropriate avenues of enforcement (e.g. the County Court), and/or it is necessary to make it a lot easier to obtain recourse for wrongful private prosecutions.
 

richw

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Look at it yourself - it's utterly implausible that it has directly costed GWR £160 to prosecute each of these cases, or to put it another way,

Isn’t that the flat court fee. Looking at other convictions at the same court for ‘normal’ crimes, the majority have received the same cost. Seems odd otherwise that assaults, robberies, harrassment are all getting £160 costs too!
 

Bletchleyite

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The fact that most passengers manage step 1 is great. But then again, most passengers board at stations where the ticketing facilities are obvious, and don't require anything other than an ordinary A to B single or return. However, not all passengers come into that category. At many smaller stations ticketing facilities can be very non-obvious, or even if obvious, they may be inaccessible due to arrangements for crossing the line, or there may be a long queue. Alternatively they may not accept the payment method the passenger wants to use, or they may not sell the ticket the passenger is after. There are so many ways in which there might, for all practical purposes, be no ticketing facilities. It is OK for most, but there are a number of people who are entirely in the right (morally and/or legally) and yet who find their name smeared by an article such as the originally linked one. That simply isn't acceptable, and it wouldn't happen if it were all a civil matter.

Or it's just not obvious how to actually use them. There are now about 4-5 different TVM UIs out there, and *none* of them are really that intuitive in the way the Swiss and Dutch ones are. You've then got idiotic designs of TVM that may be inaccessible to some people due to poor positioning of equipment (GWR, this means you - 18" off the floor is not the place to put the card machine - I can squat down to use it at 39 but I'm sure I won't be able to when I'm the same height and 79). Add to that the confusing fares structure...
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Isn’t that the flat court fee. Looking at other convictions at the same court for ‘normal’ crimes, the majority have received the same cost. Seems odd otherwise that assaults, robberies, harrassment are all getting £160 costs too!
I don't think there is any liability for Court costs in most criminal cases - these costs are costs applied for by the prosecutor.
 

Realfish

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Public record, sure. If you go looking, but this is a Google search away from any employer to match your name and home street for example and know it's you.

So, presumably these newspapers have a system in place which removes the archived story when the conviction is spent! Clearly not. The internet never forgets.
 

Puffing Devil

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Or it's just not obvious how to actually use them. There are now about 4-5 different TVM UIs out there, and *none* of them are really that intuitive in the way the Swiss and Dutch ones are. You've then got idiotic designs of TVM that may be inaccessible to some people due to poor positioning of equipment (GWR, this means you - 18" off the floor is not the place to put the card machine - I can squat down to use it at 39 but I'm sure I won't be able to when I'm the same height and 79). Add to that the confusing fares structure...

Which is why the first stage should be a Penalty Fare system, with a robust appeals system. If that fails, then there is the criminal court system to fall back on.

Making this a civil matter will do nothing as:
1) There is no punitive element
2) There is no increasing enforcement for persistent offenders
3) Monies owed in the County Court do not result in imprisonment if unpaid.
 

najaB

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So, presumably these newspapers have a system in place which removes the archived story when the conviction is spent!
The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act doesn't play any part here so the conviction being spent or unspent is a red herring.
 
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