Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?

[driver_m]

The only viable ones would have to be those empty spaces near to existing lines. I can only think of Central which is owned by the council I believe now, plenty of opportunity there, and Exchange which appears to be imminently disappearing under some scheme to introduce a Manchester spinningfields style of office block, so not there. I can't see a terminal at the end of the disused tunnels being a good option they seem too far out from the centre, however it could be a catalyst for growth in those parts around Gt Howard Street oroeven Crown Street. Ideally the best thing that could happen is something that could offer a through line opportunity for long distance services, but that would probably be ruinously expensive or destroy vast swathes of land, but Liverpool actually does seem to be massively on the up and it thought big in the past, so why not now?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would looking at things the other way around help? Could Lime Street physically take substantially longer trains? Just possibly it could, if it had only a couple of platforms, extending into the tunnel.

So this would mean everything else at Lime Street would have to go somewhere else. But everything else is a lot of fairly small trains: platform length is less of an issue, but number of platforms matters.

It seems to me that for small trains, options emerge. If we beat the office-builders to it, a new Exchange station would be possible, as might reinstating some high-level platforms at Central. Or could an additional pair of underground lines (plus platforms) from Moorfields to Central provide capacity? Then the Blackpool train wouldn't have to terminate at Liverpool: instead it could become the Birmingham train.

 

[Bevan Price]

Would looking at things the other way around help? Could Lime Street physically take substantially longer trains? Just possibly it could, if it had only a couple of platforms, extending into the tunnel.

So this would mean everything else at Lime Street would have to go somewhere else. But everything else is a lot of fairly small trains: platform length is less of an issue, but number of platforms matters.

It seems to me that for small trains, options emerge. If we beat the office-builders to it, a new Exchange station would be possible, as might reinstating some high-level platforms at Central. Or could an additional pair of underground lines (plus platforms) from Moorfields to Central provide capacity? Then the Blackpool train wouldn't have to terminate at Liverpool: instead it could become the Birmingham train.

Lime Street: You would probably need to double the width of the cutting to make space for longer platforms -- and not easy as there are buildings in the way. The alternative would be to extend at the "city end" - but that would require a bridge or embankment crossing Lime Street, (and probably knocking down St. John's Market across the road from the station.)

Central High Level - that was quite small, anything much longer than loco plus 7 or 8 coaches was a problem. Also the former approaches to Central High Level are now mostly used by the Merseyrail Electrics services to Hunts Cross.

Ideally, I think that any station to accept decent length HS2 tains would need a space up to 300 - 350 metres long. If you lose connectivity with other lines, the transfer time between stations negates much of the time gain you get by having high speed railways.

 

[AndrewE]

Was it in this thread or another where we discussed the possibility of diverting some of the locals which currently terminate at Lime St to run from Edge hill into Central (northbound) for Southport, or wherever? There is a cavern south of Central station waiting for a grade-separated junction to be installed in it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is little point in Exchange - Moorfields has completely replaced any need for a station pointing that way.

Central High Level could be an option, the land is still spare (though a development is planned), though changes to the Merseyrail junction would be needed.

If you want to move some local services out of Lime St, the Wapping Tunnel is probably the best bet. You've got 8tph terminating at Central from the north - sending those on elsewhere using dual-voltage stock (Wigan and Warrington Central would be two good options, and the latter wouldn't even require Wapping Tunnel) would actually increase capacity, though you may still want to do a rebuild to two island platforms while there's nowt but a run-down shopping centre on top of it, as otherwise the additional passengers may make it all look a bit Picc P13/14-like.

 

[AndrewE]

If you want to move some local services out of Lime St, the Wapping Tunnel is probably the best bet. You've got 8tph terminating at Central from the north - sending those on elsewhere using dual-voltage stock (Wigan and Warrington Central would be two good options, and the latter wouldn't even require Wapping Tunnel) would actually increase capacity, though you may still want to do a rebuild to two island platforms while there's nowt but a run-down shopping centre on top of it, as otherwise the additional passengers may make it all look a bit Picc P13/14-like.

Agreed, but why not make one service a Crewe stopper?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, but why not make one service a Crewe stopper?

Crewe strikes me as a bit far for the Merseyrail Northern Line?

 

[AndrewE]

Crewe strikes me as a bit far for the Merseyrail Northern Line?

Crewe and Southport are both about 40 mins from central Liverpool by stopper... why not? Why send all the Northern line trains to Warrington when some could provide through journeys to somewhere else? Anyway, what is the point of sending a train from Southport to Wigan?
Put the other way, why not give people in a wider area through trains to Bootle and up the coast to Southport? It would save me a couple of changes (or a walk between trains) when I go for some sea air!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crewe and Southport are both about 40 mins from central Liverpool by stopper... why not?

They are quite different stoppers - Southport is a low speed all stations line, Crewe is a "fast stopper" more like the south WCML. I don't know what the top speed of the Merseyrail FLIRTs will be - but it won't be 110mph!

Why send all the Northern line trains to Warrington when some could provide through journeys to somewhere else? Anyway, what is the point of sending a train from Southport to Wigan?
Put the other way, why not give people in a wider area through trains to Bootle and up the coast to Southport? It would save me a couple of changes (or a walk between trains) when I go for some sea air!

It's not about convenience, it's about removing trains from Lime St.

 

[AndrewE]

They are quite different stoppers - Southport is a low speed all stations line, Crewe is a "fast stopper" more like the south WCML.

So what? I must admit i was thinking of 319s now though.

I don't know what the top speed of the Merseyrail FLIRTs will be - but it won't be 110mph!

How fast can Flirts be made to go?

It's not about convenience, it's about removing trains from Lime St.

So sod the customer... Anyway Wigan still seems a silly destination to choose. If you are going to run trains into the centre of a region and out to another place on the edge, why double back to nearly the same place when you could use the same stock and paths to go from one side to the other? Wigan to Chester I could accept...
And why not remove 2 Crewe trains an hour from Lime St?

 

[ABB125]

Sorry for the slight topic deviation, but I keep hearing here and elsewhere of a tunnel under Liverpool that was built as a future 3rd stage (or somesuch scheme) to the "Loop and Link" of the 1970s/80s. Could someone please shed some light on this: where does it go to/from, is it ever likely to be used etc?

 

[driver_m]

Sorry for the slight topic deviation, but I keep hearing here and elsewhere of a tunnel under Liverpool that was built as a future 3rd stage (or somesuch scheme) to the "Loop and Link" of the 1970s/80s. Could someone please shed some light on this: where does it go to/from, is it ever likely to be used etc?

At the South end of Liverpool Central, there is a stub heading from the existing line to Hunts Cross .This was deliberately grade separated and designed to link to a reused Wapping Tunnel which is currently disused but intact. The idea being that the city lines could connect up with the rest of the Merseyrail Network, however due to cuts it never came off, but is now being reconsidered. I'm sceptical of it ever happening as the cost of widening Central to a 4 or 5 platform station will be huge, it can't cope with just 2 now., but it is a good idea as it could free up Lime St for more medium and long distance services The length of trains will always be a problem with Lime St, but it can take a conventional 12 car train now or an 11 car pendo. I'd be sceptical as to why Liverpool needs a 400m long platform to accommodate a HS2 train when it would be 'easier' to go for a 200m double deck option. However it gives Steve Rotheram what he needs to justify his job as the city region mayor.

 

[Polarbear]

For info, this is what was originally proposed for the Liverpool area in the 1970's.

 

[ABB125]

At the South end of Liverpool Central, there is a stub heading from the existing line to Hunts Cross .This was deliberately grade separated and designed to link to a reused Wapping Tunnel which is currently disused but intact. The idea being that the city lines could connect up with the rest of the Merseyrail Network, however due to cuts it never came off, but is now being reconsidered. I'm sceptical of it ever happening as the cost of widening Central to a 4 or 5 platform station will be huge, it can't cope with just 2 now., but it is a good idea as it could free up Lime St for more medium and long distance services The length of trains will always be a problem with Lime St, but it can take a conventional 12 car train now or an 11 car pendo. I'd be sceptical as to why Liverpool needs a 400m long platform to accommodate a HS2 train when it would be 'easier' to go for a 200m double deck option. However it gives Steve Rotheram what he needs to justify his job as the city region mayor.

For info, this is what was originally proposed for the Liverpool area in the 1970's.View attachment 60428

Thanks both of you

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the South end of Liverpool Central, there is a stub heading from the existing line to Hunts Cross .This was deliberately grade separated and designed to link to a reused Wapping Tunnel which is currently disused but intact. The idea being that the city lines could connect up with the rest of the Merseyrail Network, however due to cuts it never came off, but is now being reconsidered. I'm sceptical of it ever happening as the cost of widening Central to a 4 or 5 platform station will be huge, it can't cope with just 2 now., but it is a good idea as it could free up Lime St for more medium and long distance services The length of trains will always be a problem with Lime St, but it can take a conventional 12 car train now or an 11 car pendo. I'd be sceptical as to why Liverpool needs a 400m long platform to accommodate a HS2 train when it would be 'easier' to go for a 200m double deck option. However it gives Steve Rotheram what he needs to justify his job as the city region mayor.

There's near enough nothing on top of it (other than a run-down shopping arcade and a couple of Network Rail buildings) so opening it out and going to 4 platforms would not be disastrously difficult. An ideal time to do it would be as planning gain for a new shopping centre on top. I hear of precisely this being mooted at some point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be sceptical as to why Liverpool needs a 400m long platform to accommodate a HS2 train when it would be 'easier' to go for a 200m double deck option. However it gives Steve Rotheram what he needs to justify his job as the city region mayor.

Double deck is not an option unless and until HS2 was built all the way to Liverpool at UIC gauge, which is not happening any time soon. What would be an option would be to run 2 x 200m trains to Crewe and split them there for Preston and Liverpool. Instead of 1tph to each, you could have 2tph to each that way.

 

[driver_m]

Double deck is not an option unless and until HS2 was built all the way to Liverpool at UIC gauge, which is not happening any time soon. What would be an option would be to run 2 x 200m trains to Crewe and split them there for Preston and Liverpool. Instead of 1tph to each, you could have 2tph to each that way.

I think you'd still struggle a bit with 400m platforms at Central on a High Level. If this supposed NPR line does get built to those standards then why not make it double deck compatible? When I said 'easier' in quotes, I was implying that it would probably be less difficult than trying to open up Lime St as some are suggesting. Not to say impossible with both the track gradient and tunnels within cuttings that make a suggestion very hard to do.

 

[Polarbear]

There was an article about this in the Liverpool Echo last week (on mobile currently so unable to link/post). The suggestion was that any HS2 station/platform would be close to Lime Street.

Quite how that works, I’m not sure, though potentially, there is land in the general area that could conceivably be used, but would involve a lot of property acquisition/demolition.

 

[driver_m]

The only thing nearby is one of the tunnels which runs under London Road which nearby.. I'd say it would be impossible to clear a path above ground for a station now in the near vicinity.

The Echo isn't quite as poorly regarded as the Sun round here, but it's reporting is the pits these days, such as putting Ditton in Runcorn not Widnes. So I'd take whatever they say with a bucketful of salt .

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The only thing nearby is one of the tunnels which runs under London Road which nearby.. I'd say it would be impossible to clear a path above ground for a station now in the near vicinity.

Some space will open up when the Churchill Way flyovers come down. Space for Liverpool Hunter Street station perhaps?

 

[edwin_m]

The area just east of Lime Street is sandstone which is very easy to tunnel (it's where that Victorian philanthropist paid lots of unemployed people to dig lots of pointless holes). If some 400m platforms are needed, perhaps the answer is to divert the two easternmost existing platform lines into a new tunnel, which would include the northern end of the platforms, and either join them into a new high speed link or back into the existing line somewhere around Edge Hill.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/two-locations-being-considered-proposed-17827780

Two locations are under consideration for a potential new high speed rail station in Liverpool city centre, a committee meeting heard yesterday.

Plans for a new station in the city to serve potential link ups to HS2 and a proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail route were first given a boost last year when metro mayor Steve Rotheram announced a commission would be formed to look at options for the station.

The creation of the commission, chaired by Everton CEO Denise Barrett-Baxendale, was announced in March last year but its first meeting was put off after the government ordered the Oakervee Review of the HS2 project.

That review, which backed the first stage of HS2 but recommended changes to the structure and delivery of the project, was released earlier this month.

The first meeting of the station commission is now set to take place in March and a presentation to members of the combined authority’s transport committee yesterday outlined how the project could progress.

Combined authority interim director for integrated transport Shane Fitzpatrick said two station locations were under consideration along with five potential routes into the city for the track but said more of the “heavily sensitive” details on locations would not be released for some time.


He said: “There are a couple of routes in there that are under discussion and you can imagine the sensitivity of those routes to be honest with you.

“I touched on the number of routes. I didn’t go into any detail because quite honestly I couldn’t go into any details.”
Mr Fitzpatrick said it would likely be years before the final routes and station locations are decided given the scale of the project and how early on it is.

However he said the Integrated Rail Plan which is being developed by the combined authority could give more detail on some of the “high level” detail of the plans.


The proposed new lined across the North could cut journey times to Manchester down to around 23 minutes, with London journeys via HS2 down to 89 minutes.

Speaking at the time of the formation of the commission last year, metro mayor Rotheram said the development of more rail links into Liverpool were vital for the city’s future.

He said: “Connecting the Liverpool City Region to HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail will both cut journey times and increase capacity, boosting our economy by £15 billion.

“In order to make that connection happen we will need a new station in Liverpool city centre, capable of accommodating HS2 trains, NPR trains and linking in with our local transport infrastructure. Lime Street will simply not be able to cope.
“Building a new station is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to create a gateway to the Liverpool City Region that is fit for the 21st century.”

Two locations and five routes being looked at

 

[Polarbear]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/two-locations-being-considered-proposed-17827780



Two locations and five routes being looked at

Noted that they’re being very circumspect with regard to the two locations under review.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Wonder what sites they are that are under consideration

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think it really matters which 'direction' the terminal faces or even what side of the city it is on.

St Pancras springs to mind.
Should just build the terminal wherever they can fit it within the budget

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think it really matters which 'direction' the terminal faces or even what side of the city it is on.

St Pancras springs to mind.
Should just build the terminal wherever they can fit it within the budget

Exchange springs to mind in that sense.

but the other site could be the Lime Street area. The budget is £6bn

 

[MarkyT]

Exchange springs to mind in that sense.

but the other site could be the Lime Street area. The budget is £6bn

I think they'll want full 400m+ platform length, and ideally integrated with the current Lime Street so all longer distance trains are concentrated together. My money is on new terminal platforms alongside the north side of the existing station where there are some unremarkable office and parking buildings. A deep trench containing the east end of the platforms and a throat then a bored tunnel roughly parallelling the existing railway to somewhere in the Edge Hill/Wavertree area to join the selected corridor out of the city. For that part I'd suggest the WCML route going south via Allerton, taking over exclusive use of one pair of the existing underutilised four-track formation. Some residential demolition is unavoidable around the east end of the terminal I suspect.

 

[Chester1]

Diverting local services from Edge Hill to Central via additional underground platforms at Lime Street and expanding the existing terminal would be a better investment than a brand new terminal. If they did that then the HS link would only need to reach Liverpool South Parkway. There is spare capacity between LSP and Edge Hill and multiple services could be diverted away from the approach to Lime Street. The Birmingham service would become redundant and could be replaced with a Merseyrail service to Crewe (2tph), 2-4tph to Wigan NW, 1tph to Warrington BQ.

 

[Meerkat]

Does it really need 400m platforms? Are they planning on sending whole trains into Liverpool?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Diverting local services from Edge Hill to Central via additional underground platforms at Lime Street and expanding the existing terminal would be a better investment than a brand new terminal. If they did that then the HS link would only need to reach Liverpool South Parkway. There is spare capacity between LSP and Edge Hill and multiple services could be diverted away from the approach to Lime Street. The Birmingham service would become redundant and could be replaced with a Merseyrail service to Crewe (2tph)

No, no, no and no. Merseyrail is reliable because it's self-contained. Anything that's connected to the "spare" 8tph at Central (any more than that would need a new platform) needs to be something that becomes dedicated to Merseyrail. The only one I can think of that makes sense there is the CLC to Warrington, though that could be done as an extension of the present Hunts Cross service.

Merseyrail does NOT need turning into a Northern or LNR-style mess.

Unless you are proposing that the legacy WCML should become dedicated to Merseyrail?