Monday Morning blues....advice needed

[Linux_cat]

Morning all, hope all is well.

I have to share my experience this morning i had with a ticket inspector as im still realing about it.

I caught the train this morning, with a friend it was her first time travelling into london for around 2 years or so. Prior to her meeting me she had already bought her return ticket using her railcard from a ticket kiosk, she showed her railcard to the woman behind the counter and got given what she thought was the correct ticket.

We boarded the train, about 5 minutes into the journer a ticket inspector comes along and checks everyones tickets he looks at hers and states that she had an invalid railcard as it had expired on in october, so the ticket was not valid and she would have to purchase another, this is when it starts to get a bit hairy.

We try to explain to the inspector that the ticket was sold to her, by a rail representitive who accepted the railcard as valid, he was having none of it, took the railcard and defaced the ticket so it could not be used.

We then asked if she could have the railcard as proof to get a refund on her old ticket as she would effectivly being paying twice for the same journey, he refused to do this and started to become very rude, like totally ignorning what i had to say, looking the other way and humming etc....this made me extremely angry.

At this point i took the railcard from his hand, in a swift motion and put it in my back pocket. He then started to pay me attention and ask for the railcard back, but by this point he had wound me up no end so i refused. He then proceeded to call an off duty police officer, who came over but said nothing apart from 'we will sort this out when the train stops'.

When we arrived at the station all four of us, me, my friend, the ticket inspector and policeman attempted to resolve the situation, the policeman asked to give the railcard to him which I did (im not arguing with a policeman not first thing in the morning).

Our point was falling on deaf ears, they did not care who sold my friend the ticket, even if it was representitive of the train company, the discussion got a bit heated, my friend ended up paying and i was threatned with being arrested. So that was that.

What i need to know, is what are my friends rights in this situation?

If im walking away from the an off duty british transport police officer, does he have any right to touch me (tugging on my jacket and saying that i can only go when he decides i can go).

 

[First class]

You acted entirely unacceptable by snatching the railcard of him. That is HIS property (as a servant/representative of the railway). You/Your Friend does not OWN that railcard. You also refused to comply with the instructions of a railway representative by refusing to hand it back, therefore another bye-law offence.

Your friend had an out of date railcard, she has the responsibility to ensure her tickets are correct and in order before boarding a train. She agrees to this when she signs her railcard application form. What he did was charge her for a new ticket, which is a common procedure, as she boarded a train without a valid ticket. The ticket clerk sells you a ticket based on what you ask for, you don't actually need to show a railcard to get a railcard discounted ticket, but you do need to carry a valid one on your journey. Your friend can get a refund on the original ticket minus the appropiate admin fee of £10. If the ticket cost less than £10, you're wasting your time. You should send the ticket with a letter to the Train Company that sold it to her. Allow 28 days. You do not need the railcard.

The fact that the BTP were required suggests that you were acting in an entirely inappropriate way. The fact that BTP had to physically move you suggests your behaviour was appalling. They have the legal right to use appropriate force against an offender, (you), and if you call tugging on your jacket unreasonable, you're nuts. He's probably done you a favour by getting you out of the way so you don't end up getting locked up.

You should not have got involved. Your friend should have paid up and if she didn't like it, had the right to complain to the train company.

If you had snatched something out of my hand (that wasn't even your's in the first place) and then proceeded to become 'extremely angry' at me- I'd find myself pressing charges against you. It seems that BTP were considering arresting you if you persisted.

Sorry if you think I've been OTT, but the fact BTP were requested, and your language in the post said "extremely angry", "defaced the ticket", "I refused", etc...
It does not paint a very good picture of you and I would be embarrassed to be accompanying you at that time.

 

[royaloak]

Dont worry though, Yorkie will be along soon and say its all the railways fault.

 

[Linux_cat]

Fair enough First Class.

In all honesty, I have been trained to control my anger as I have been doing Thai boxing for 5 years now, I rarely get angry but today the inability of the inspector to even listen or be reasonable to what we had to say made me mad.

Yes i was very angry, especially when someone is trying to ignore me (a paying customer), and also being very patronising....

I did snatch it out of his hand, I then proceeded to ignore his pleas of handing it back, I replied with simple 'No's', I did not shout but i guess my face said it all.

I just dont understand how someone working in a customer facing industry can be so rude? especially to someone that spend over 4k a year on their trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
just thinking back he could of simply said

'Sorry miss, but the railcard you is invalid so im going to have to charge you for a new one. You can probabally get a refund if you keep this ticket, in fact ill write/make a note of what you said and you can use my name as reference. I know its not ideal but i have to do this its my job, really sorry to ruin your morning and sorry for the mix up you have experienced at the ticket kiosk'

common courtesy and manners, thats all people ask for.

 

[LondonLarry]

The retailer does have a responsibility to check that the railcard is valid for the journey being made. At the very least, she should be refunded the full cost of the railcard discounted ticket by the company who sold her the ticket.

I do agree with First Class's comments that your behaviour may not have been appropriate for the situation. Ultimately, the matter is between your friend and the train company, and not you as a third party.

 

[Greenback]

Afternoon Linux Cat. Welcome to the forum.

To answer your questions, your friend has the right to complain to the company that issued the ticket. The company will be able to identify the ticket office and window from the information on the ticket, but I don;t know what the response will be

The BTP officer, whether off duty or not, has the right to lay hands on you or your jacket as part of a request to stay where you are. It is advisable to comply with such requests, in some parts of the world you may get shot rather than have your jacket pulled should you continue to move away!

It is diffcult to believe, but some people have been known to get someone with a current railcard to buy their ticket for them and then rely on their own railcard not being inspected on train. This is one of the reasons why on train inspections are so necessary, and it is also meant to be a deterrent to those who want to try such scams to save a few pounds.

Naturally, I am not for one minute suggesting that your friend was doing this sort of thing. Having said that, it is primarily the railcard holders responsibility to ensure that their railcard is valid before commencing a journey. As has bene stated, tickets can be bought over the web and from machines without a railcard ever being shown to railway staff.

 

[First class]

Fair enough First Class.

In all honesty, I have been trained to control my anger as I have been doing Thai boxing for 5 years now, I rarely get angry but today the inability of the inspector to even listen or be reasonable to what we had to say made me mad.

Yes i was very angry, especially when someone is trying to ignore me (a paying customer), and also being very patronising....

I did snatch it out of his hand, I then proceeded to ignore his pleas of handing it back, I replied with simple 'No's', I did not shout but i guess my face said it all.

I just dont understand how someone working in a customer facing industry can be so rude? especially to someone that spend over 4k a year on their trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
just thinking back he could of simply said

'Sorry miss, but the railcard you is invalid so im going to have to charge you for a new one. You can probabally get a refund if you keep this ticket, in fact ill write/make a note of what you said and you can use my name as reference. I know its not ideal but i have to do this its my job, really sorry to ruin your morning and sorry for the mix up you have experienced at the ticket kiosk'

common courtesy and manners, thats all people ask for.

I wasn't there so can only go with what you say, but generally, if you get defensive with somebody, they get defensive with you and vice versa.

You effectively "butted in" to a discussion between your friend and him, which was rude. You should have had no say on the matter- he's dealing with a different passenger. You've paid- showed him your ticket and it's fine. Your friend however did not have a ticket and required a remedy to which you took objection to.

When he's trying to inspect several hundred tickets- he wants it to go smoothly- any discrepancies being resolved easily. He doesn't want a slanging match- extra reports to write etc... My guess would be that if you'd sat there mindlessly staring out the window why he deals with your friend, he probably would have been more inclined to take time to explain and be 'customer focused', yet when met with abuse, he simply thinks "f*ck this, charge her and I'm off'.

 

[Linux_cat]

Understood.

but she showed the the lady behind the ticket kiosk the railcard who processed it with the code on the ticket!.

retrospectively, i should of acted more mature i shouldnt really stoop down to the inspectors level.

Understood about the policeman, thats why i didnt even attempt to argue.

 

[First class]

The retailer does have a responsibility to check that the railcard is valid for the journey being made. At the very least, she should be refunded the full cost of the railcard discounted ticket by the company who sold her the ticket.

And sorry to disagree with you in this thread too, but the retailer does not have the responsibility to check the date. From a customer service point of view, it would be beneficial to point out that it's expired, but if you claim to have a valid railcard when you don't that's only your own fault...

She could have just as easily went to an automatic ticket machine, or bought online/telesales, where nobody asks for proof of a railcard.

I believe that some TOC's have a policy is to refuse to sell a discounted ticket without a valid railcard, but there's no particular rule on this, except that they must possess one when they do travel.

but she showed the the lady behind the ticket kiosk the railcard who processed it with the code on the ticket!

What do you mean? The railcard has no code on it, only a photocard number which is only used to compare the photocard to the date card. Why don't you tell us:

1) Where she bought the ticket
2) How much did the ticket cost
3) What type of ticket it was
4) Where it was To/From

And we might be able to figure out why she didn't spot this.

 

[Linux_cat]

k ill find the pricing information and get back to you.

 

[313103]

Cant wait for Surrey Traveller to get his teeth into this, no doubt he will say that the member of rail staff was wrong, and that you should claim a refund and ask the company to sack their employee. However i dont know whether he rise to my bait, he is very selective in replying to the comments that get put to him.

It would appear that you had an attitude with the railway official, Did he swear at you? Probably not, by your own assertion that you was very angry does that include swearing at him and showing signs of threatening behaviour? I dont know i wasnt there but i if i was a betting man i would offer evens for either one of them.

Your beef with him was such that you even think he is below you, you even say that you should have acted more mature i shouldnt of stooped to his level. Pray do tell do you know what level he was at? It could also be argued that he was reduced to your level.

 

[Linux_cat]

no i didnt swear, in fact i made a mental note not too as it gives them the moral high ground.

Well ignoring someone and saying things like 'Do you hear something? whats that annoying sound?'

thats pretty immature to me, but i proceeded and took the bait by snatching the ticket then ignoring him, so yes i beleive he was behaving at a low level of intelligence but i guess im even stupider for following him down that path.

 

[313103]

That is the bit i dont like and railway staff are more then often accused of it, when things start to go wrong staff are often accused of having the moral high ground. Your speaking like its a them and us situation. Its not about moral ground or im right and your wrong, its about everything trying to be in some semblance of order. I am a member of staff and i am also a big user of the public transport system as a passenger and believe me as both ive seen lots of things wrong and things quickly get out of hand, most problems come along because staff especially in dealing with tickets have heard the same old tired stories about why a passenger does not have or does not want to pay for the fare.

It is not a battle of wills, i would rather go through the day and have a peaceful work day, but more then often things go wrong and before you can explain, passengers have already taken the moral high ground by saying things that they think will get a reaction from me, most of the time i ignore it, unless it is directed at me personally.

You may not like this but you should have left the railway personal and your friend to sort the problem out, your interjection has made matters worse. Your friend even if she didnt like having to pay extra could go through the channels and get the money back, provided she was in the right.

Do not think for one minute that railway companies back their staff up, 9 out of 10 would discipline their staff purely on the basis of a letter that a member of public has put in. It is easier for the company to do such thing then trying to prove that a member of public was in the wrong. For staff they dont have redress after such things, and are supposed to just get on with it.

Perhaps if you feel that unhappy how about contacting the Company concerned in the first instance, if your are then not happy try contacting a travel watchdog, contacting the local press and contacting your MP. If the train has cctv request a copy of that as well it may not have sound but it will certainly have the all important body language.

 

[Linux_cat]

But why are staff so rude, it seems like a common trend im sure their are exceptions to the rule but is it part of your job description?.

Seriously, you lot are worse than traffic wardens with your little ticket machines. Its like you get major enjoyment from finding ticket discrepencies and shouting it out in front of the whole carraige....

You lot have to realise that people spend serious money on the trains i spend almost 4k a year, you should be treating us like royalty and in return im sure you would get the same level of respect back!.

My gym membership is way less than that, i get a smile when i walk in and tips on how to improve my fitness.....

Hows about a smile from you guys, maybe even comment on how good im looking in my new shoes....giving advice on how to make my journey more comfortable and cost effective I know is out of your remit.

 

[LondonLarry]

And sorry to disagree with you in this thread too, but the retailer does not have the responsibility to check the date. From a customer service point of view, it would be beneficial to point out that it's expired, but if you claim to have a valid railcard when you don't that's only your own fault...

I'm afraid I disagree! If a retailer sells a railcard discounted ticket knowing it is out of date they are, in effect, assisting the customer to defraud the rail operator. If the tables were turned and you were the passenger, would you be happy to accept a Penalty Fare?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seriously, you lot are worse than traffic wardens with your little ticket machines. Its like you get major enjoyment from finding ticket discrepencies and shouting it out in front of the whole carraige....

You lot have to realise that people spend serious money on the trains i spend almost 4k a year, you should be treating us like royalty and in return im sure you would get the same level of respect back!.

My gym membership is way less than that, i get a smile when i walk in and tips on how to improve my fitness.

Sorry, but if you look at how much money you are saving compared to individual journeys, you are saving a fortune.

All customers should be treated equally, regardless of whether they have a first class season ticket or are travelling by rail for the first time on a cheap ticket.

 

[Max]

In all fairness Linux_cat, your ticket was invalid and the guard had every right to confiscate the railcard. However, I do completely empathise with you with regards to his attitude. I have several times come up against railway staff who are rude, unreasonable and think that it is completely wrong that passengers might be unhappy when things go wrong. Whilst his actions regarding the ticket were perfectly correct on paper, failing to listen to you was certainly very unreasonable, and being patronising towards you was, in my view, a step too far. It's almost as if he was winding you up to try and get a reaction, which is no better than something a child would do. Sadly, it really doesn't surprise me as I have witnessed similar incidents several times before. These staff need to remember that whilst on one hand they are protecting revenue, they are also representing their company on a customer service level. It is this latter point which I believe they frequently forget.

 

[Linux_cat]

Sorry, but if you look at how much money you are saving compared to individual journeys, you are saving a fortune.

Actually.......

I can travel by car or bus, both would be cheaper but take longer with the traffic.

So its not actually cheaper its faster. meaning i can have an extra hour in bed or stay up an extra hour to spend with the family.....

4k is alot dude, all im and probabally alot of people are asking for is some respect from train staff. Im not saying consumers are angels, far from it but in my experience if you treat people nicely they will do the same to you.

 

[LondonLarry]

Actually.......

I can travel by car or bus, both would be cheaper but take longer with the traffic.

So its not actually cheaper its faster. meaning i can have an extra hour in bed or stay up an extra hour to spend with the family.....

4k is alot dude, all im and probabally alot of people are asking for is some respect from train staff. Im not saying consumers are angels, far from it but in my experience if you treat people nicely they will do the same to you.

The comparison I was making was between an Annual season ticket and a day return. I don't know what journey you do, so I'll use Milton Keynes to London as an example.

Annual season ticket price: £3832
Based on a 240 working days per year, the daily cost is: £15.97
A Peak Day Return from Milton Keynes to London is: £33.90 (or £25.80 on Virgin Trains only)
Your saving is: £17.93 or 52.9% (£9.83 or 38.1% for Virgin only)

In many cases, public transport is comparable or better than cummuting by private transport, especially when you take into account depreciation, fuel, parking, time etc.

 

[scrapy]

I can't see how the retailer can be accused of helping the customer defraud the company. It is the passengers responsibility to have a valid ticket. Unless the ticket office clerk checks the ticket and says 'I am aware the ticket is out of date but it's OK you'll get away with it' then I can't see what they have done wrong. It's like suggesting the ticket office can be done for fraud if they sell a child ticket to an over 16 year old believing they are under 16.

It is likely Linux_cats' friend asked for a ticket to xxx with a yp railcard. In which case the ticket office will have assumed they had a railcard. Ticket office staff are not ticket examiners however they do have the right to check a person has the right to a discount. Busy ticket office staff may not have the time to check all railcards and rely on the passengers honesty (after all they could have purchased it from a machine). Rail staff are often in a no win situation and there have been articles on this forum complaining about ticket office queues and ticket office staff refusing to sell railcard tickets.

Even if the ticket office staff member did see the railcard, it will have been a quick glance and they may not have seen the date.

I agree that nobody should be rude to you no matter how much you spend a year on the railway but to say especially because I spend 4k a year is just a stupid comment, do you expect the ticket inspector to know much you spend, and give you special treatment???

There are very few rail staff I come across who are rude people, and there are a hell of a lot more rude passengers these staff have to put up with!!

We have only heard one side to this story, the fact that the ticket inspector was walking away and ignoring you suggests he was trying to diffuse the situation which staff are trained to do and not being rude. It may have been that the ticket inspector simply felt that the conversation was going round in circles. I am not suggesting at any point that there was any attempt to defraud the railway, however many others passengers do this, a ticket inspector is not a judge or jury and simply withdrew the railway property you had as it was invalid. A reciept should be provided however the ticket inspector will not risk his safety to give you one.

At the end of the day it seems that the ticket inspector has simply done his job, and Linux_cat (or friend) made an honest mistake, but wants someone else to blame, so commited an offfence, which ended up with in him dealing with the police.

 

[Linux_cat]

I agree that nobody should be rude to you no matter how much you spend a year on the railway but to say especially because I spend 4k a year is just a stupid comment, do you expect the ticket inspector to know much you spend, and give you special treatment???

The inspector does know as he checks my yearly ticket.

Sorry, but if you look at how much money you are saving compared to individual journeys, you are saving a fortune.

So, basically if anyone saves money they should expect rudeness from the provider?

I go back to the 4k as its not an invalid point, I spend my hard earned money to get to work, i expect not only that i get to my destination, but that i dont have to deal with ignorant and arrogant staff as well.

All customers should be treated equally, regardless of whether they have a first class season ticket or are travelling by rail for the first time on a cheap ticket

Ok, so that means everyone gets treated like sh** by staff, no matter how much they pay......?

Im pretty sure, if you did a poll on this forum on what the general public thinks of rails staff (non rail staff members only) you would find that majority feel that the customer service is not up to par.

Now that maybe hard medicine for rail staff members to swallow, and im sure as this is your chosen career you will try to argue and defend your rail company and staff.....but

if MAJORITY of the rail users in the UK are saying pretty much the same thing does that not tell you something?

 

[313103]

It appears i banged my head against a brick wall in my last message.

I said it is not a YOU & I situation but your remarks "YOU LOT" just sums it all it up really.

You are quite right their can absolutely no excuse with regard rudeness from staff, however the situation works both ways.

When someone calls me all the bar-stewards under the sun because they missed the train that was on time, im expected take it with nothing more than a cursory glance.

Rudeness is unacceptable no matter where it come from, be it me the member of staff, be it you the fare paying member of public.

I dont think you need for me to let you know whether your shoes are good or not, you made the decision to purchase them, if i really told what i thought about them you may not like the answer.

Actually the majority of rail users do not give a you know what about staff, as long as it runs, and frankly your comments appear' to sum that up in one tidy bag. Lets look at how people travel in the 21st century, Passengers moan that the trains are dirty, try using a London Overground service on one of our new class 378s in one trip it can look like a 35 year old 313, all down to the passenger. Papers, spilt coffee, left over food are all left by your fellow passengers and yet who gets it in the ear, that's right ME. Me as if it was my rubbish.

If you do however think i am going to call you SIR, you are going to have a rude awakening. I left school 30 years ago and the only person i would have called Sir then would have been my Father and he was called Dad and not Sir. I will be polite though.

 

[142094]

Im pretty sure, if you did a poll on this forum on what the general public thinks of rails staff (non rail staff members only) you would find that majority feel that the customer service is not up to par.

However on the other hand if you did a poll you may find that many people think railway staff do a very good job. Going back over the years I must have travelled on trains thousands of times and I can only say that I have encountered staff being rude less than 10-15 times, with most of these incidents being at times when services have been messed up. Apart from that I think they do a good job.

In your case it is your friend's obligation to ensure she had a valid railcard. As she didn't she has to buy another ticket. Fair enough you could expect the money already spent on the discounted ticket to be taken off the full price ticket, but the conductor doesn't have to do this. Plus as has been said it is not the fault of the person in the ticket office either. Therefore you should not have had a problem with this.

Also, you may pay £4k+ for your ticket but this does not mean you should get any different treatment to a person buying a ticket for £4.

 

[Linux_cat]

Also, you may pay £4k+ for your ticket but this does not mean you should get any different treatment to a person buying a ticket for £4.

no, and thats my point, rail staff are rude accross the board unless your in first class...but then i guess they have been told to treat passengers in this class differently?.

 

[313103]

no, and thats my point, rail staff are rude accross the board unless your in first class...but then i guess they have been told to treat passengers in this class differently?.

PLEASE READ MY message regarding your attitude, what your saying is that i am rude, would you care to meet me then and prove your theory wrong. You need to stop being generalistic, put the boot on the other foot, is it ok for you to abuse me? because basically that is what you are doing here.

Actually i dont treat people any different whether they are in first class or cattle class.

 

[Linux_cat]

lol....im abusing you now....are you for real??

is this what you call abuse? please dont tell me your gonna call a member of the british transport police to intervene?....

cry baby!....lol

 

[glynn80]

When someone calls me all the bar-stewards under the sun because they missed the train that was on time, im expected take it with nothing more than a cursory glance.

Of course you are expected to take it! There is a clear distinction between you and the customer, you are paid to remain professional. If the customer becomes abusive, that is a job for BTP, at no point does a customers rudeness allow a member of rail staff to legitimately be rude in return.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Morning all, hope all is well.

I have to share my experience this morning i had with a ticket inspector as im still realing about it.

I caught the train this morning, with a friend it was her first time travelling into london for around 2 years or so. Prior to her meeting me she had already bought her return ticket using her railcard from a ticket kiosk, she showed her railcard to the woman behind the counter and got given what she thought was the correct ticket.

We boarded the train, about 5 minutes into the journer a ticket inspector comes along and checks everyones tickets he looks at hers and states that she had an invalid railcard as it had expired on in october, so the ticket was not valid and she would have to purchase another, this is when it starts to get a bit hairy.

We try to explain to the inspector that the ticket was sold to her, by a rail representitive who accepted the railcard as valid, he was having none of it, took the railcard and defaced the ticket so it could not be used.

We then asked if she could have the railcard as proof to get a refund on her old ticket as she would effectivly being paying twice for the same journey, he refused to do this and started to become very rude, like totally ignorning what i had to say, looking the other way and humming etc....this made me extremely angry.

At this point i took the railcard from his hand, in a swift motion and put it in my back pocket. He then started to pay me attention and ask for the railcard back, but by this point he had wound me up no end so i refused. He then proceeded to call an off duty police officer, who came over but said nothing apart from 'we will sort this out when the train stops'.

When we arrived at the station all four of us, me, my friend, the ticket inspector and policeman attempted to resolve the situation, the policeman asked to give the railcard to him which I did (im not arguing with a policeman not first thing in the morning).

Our point was falling on deaf ears, they did not care who sold my friend the ticket, even if it was representitive of the train company, the discussion got a bit heated, my friend ended up paying and i was threatned with being arrested. So that was that.

What i need to know, is what are my friends rights in this situation?

If im walking away from the an off duty british transport police officer, does he have any right to touch me (tugging on my jacket and saying that i can only go when he decides i can go).

I do see your point and have experienced the type of inspector who has a bad attitude problem (Not suggesting there all like that) but I think a Railcard is property of National Rail (If I am correct)as it states on the card, giving the inspector the right to take it off of you if he decides to for some reason (being invalid) but to be fair you should of checked the date (But we do all make stupid mistakes sometimes?).

As for the staff they can be very rude (As stated before not suggesting they are all like that) but when I have complained apparently they had never served me so dont worry about that as you will never win as I have experienced too.

 

[SquirrelJunction]

Does someone have a spare needle and thread? This conversation reminds me of the typical city commuter who thinks that a ticket is their right to act like a god and its cracking me up. Thank god I am not a bellmonkey anymore!

The inspector does know as he checks my yearly ticket.

For all the Guard/Ticket Inspector/TTI/conductor would know; your company could have paid for that ticket and you get it as a free perk of wherever you work.

Also. I am sure that as you spend £4k a year on your ticket, you would appreciate it if the same inspector was able to check as many tickets as possible to ensure that a passenger is not defrauding the train operator by purchasing tickets that they are not entitled to. If said inspector was to check more than the essential information on a ticket, then that would take much longer.

I for one never looked at the price of a ticket unless it was being sold from my machine at that particular moment.

 

[Linux_cat]

Does someone have a spare needle and thread? This conversation reminds me of the typical city commuter who thinks that a ticket is their right to act like a god and its cracking me up. Thank god I am not a bellmonkey anymore!

^^^^ says it all.....

WORSE THAN TRAFFIC WARDENS!!!!

 

[90019]

I can't be the only one who thinks this is a wind up.

Whatever it is, it's certainly got good entertainment value