Scotrail collects 2nd improvement notice

[Highlandspring]

Forres Loop is no longer ‘officially a thing’. Welsh’s Bridge is the junction between the Highland Main Line and the East line at Inverness. Dunrod Loop is a crossing loop between Inverkip and Branchton on the Wemyss Bay branch. This data set is a good example of something that is meaningful (to a certain extent) in its own context within the railway industry but of little actual value and ripe for misinterpretation outwith that setting.

 

[GusB]

Forres Loop is no longer ‘officially a thing’. Welsh’s Bridge is the junction between the Highland Main Line and the East line at Inverness. Dunrod Loop is a crossing loop between Inverkip and Branchton on the Wemyss Bay branch. This data set is a good example of something that is meaningful (to a certain extent) in its own context within the railway industry but of little actual value and ripe for misinterpretation outwith that setting.

I suppose it could be argued that there is still a passing loop at Forres, and it is now actually in the station, therefore "Forres Loop" isn't that wildly off the mark...

Where's my coat?

 

[Esker-pades]

Few of the stations on the list have numbers that represent a full day's service. 166 trains skipped Drumry! How many trains stop at Drumry in a day? 143, I think. Number of services in a week? 924. 52 weeks in a year gives 48,048. That's 0.35% of trains. OK, there aren't quite 52 weeks in a year, but that error accounts for a different in the order of hundredths of one percent.

 

[Highlandspring]

I suppose it could be argued that there is still a passing loop at Forres, and it is now actually in the station, therefore "Forres Loop" isn't that wildly off the mark...

Logically yes but as a location in railway IT systems ‘Forres Loop’ - as in STANNOX 01128, STANME FORRES LP, TILOC FORRESL - is defunct as a seperate entity to ‘Forres’ (01127, FORRES, FORRES). It still exists but is no longer used.

 

[GusB]

Logically yes but as a location in railway IT systems ‘Forres Loop’ - as in STANNOX 01128, STANME FORRES LP, TILOC FORRESL - is defunct as a seperate entity to ‘Forres’ (01127, FORRES, FORRES). It still exists but is no longer used.

Hmm, I've just had a quick look on RTT (I was wondering where the last Inverness-bound train was), and Forres loop doesn't appear as a location any more, nor Elgin SB. These must have been removed fairly recently (ie within the last couple of weeks).

 

[Highlandspring]

Well they’re still there in the various internal IT systems but they are no longer used as timing points in schedules so you won’t see them on realtimetrains and similar sites. Sorry for dragging this off topic.

 

[Deltic1961]

Because of the position of Aberdeen station it's not one that can be skipped.

 

[47271]

Considering the number of Scotrail services cancelled or part cancelled over the past three months, a far more serious issue, you'd think that the Greens could've focused on the stats and reasons around that for preference. There's plenty to report.

And as others have pointed out the errors, they could've got someone with some network knowledge to clean up the list to give it some credibility. Usan was skipped once in the year apparently for example...

There are major failings at Scotrail but in my view this piece of work helps let them off the hook and encourages a further deterioration of service by obsessing about hundreds of small operational decisions that can have a positive outcome for the majority of passengers in a given situation. There's no positive side to a train cancelled due to the operator not employing enough staff in the first place, or incompetently managing a process of change. Politicians really need to spend their time questioning that.

 

[Highlandspring]

Because of the position of Aberdeen station it's not one that can be skipped.

There’s no reason why Aberdeen couldn’t be skipped; operationally it’s extremely unlikely you’d wish to do so but there’s no reason why a passenger train which is booked to call can’t pass through without stopping. For example imagine if there was an incident of some sort at Union Square that might require the closure or evacuation of the station. In that case, although it’s very unlikely, an Inverurie - Edinburgh (or vice versa) service may be instructed to run straight through without stopping and therefore be recorded as a fail to call on the statistics. That’s exactly how a small proportion of the numbers for Partick station (and a number of the low level Glasgow stations) have been caused but surely the politicians aren’t calling for passengers to be let off a train into a station which has been evacuated because the fire alarm is sounding? That’s the danger of trying to interpret these data without knowing all the facts behind them.

 

[Highlandspring]

Considering the number of Scotrail services cancelled or part cancelled over the past three months, a far more serious issue, you'd think that the Greens could've focused on the stats and reasons around that for preference.

I am very surprised that so far no politicians have apparently made the mental link between the number of fail to calls dropping to negligible levels and the number of part or full cancellations going through the roof.

 

[Sirius]

I am very surprised that so far no politicians have apparently made the mental link between the number of fail to calls dropping to negligible levels and the number of part or full cancellations going through the roof.

Indeed. Milngavie has never been skipped (it physically can’t) so reading those stats you’d come to the incorrect conclusion it gets a good service.

 

[68000]

These station skipping figures for a year are absolutely tiny and should not even warrant a press release

 

[Deltic1961]

But from a customer's point of view every single one of them is an inconvenience. If a timetable exists with designated stops then the train should stop there.

I would be mighty peed off for example if I bought a ticket to Dyce Then got on the train and it went straight through to Inverurie. Surely the conditions of carriage are broken if you buy a ticket for a specified station, get on a train in good will then it decides not to stop.

No excuse.

 

[Esker-pades]

But from a customer's point of view every single one of them is an inconvenience. If a timetable exists with designated stops then the train should stop there.

I would be mighty peed off for example if I bought a ticket to Dyce Then got on the train and it went straight through to Inverurie. Surely the conditions of carriage are broken if you buy a ticket for a specified station, get on a train in good will then it decides not to stop.

No excuse.

So, how would you recover delays? It isn't a spontaneous decision, the train will have to be X minutes late before control considers skip-stopping (X will vary from route to route, and even train to train). Considerations vary (things like turnaround time, knock-on effects to other services, frequency of services etc.).

Skip-stopping should (and in all my experiences is) announced before it happens so that passengers are not overcarried (unless it is a faster way home).

In the event of such a situation that you describe, you would not be penalised at any point under the National Rail Conditions of Travel (which replaced the conditions of carriage).

It's all well and good saying "this is awful", but an alternative solution to the problem has to be put forward.

 

[68000]

But from a customer's point of view every single one of them is an inconvenience. If a timetable exists with designated stops then the train should stop there.

I would be mighty peed off for example if I bought a ticket to Dyce Then got on the train and it went straight through to Inverurie. Surely the conditions of carriage are broken if you buy a ticket for a specified station, get on a train in good will then it decides not to stop.

No excuse.

A customer has more chance of missing the wanted service waiting to cross the road to the station. The figures are tiny and is noise with everything that is happening on the railway

 

[47271]

But from a customer's point of view every single one of them is an inconvenience. If a timetable exists with designated stops then the train should stop there.

I would be mighty peed off for example if I bought a ticket to Dyce Then got on the train and it went straight through to Inverurie. Surely the conditions of carriage are broken if you buy a ticket for a specified station, get on a train in good will then it decides not to stop.

No excuse.

Okay, let's put it this way, and let's assume you live in Inverurie rather than Dyce. This is a purely theoretical example and has no basis in fact.

The Aberdeen to Inverurie service runs very late and carries 100 people to their final destination, but in order to do that it skips Dyce and 50 passengers are inconvenienced because of that. It then goes on to carry another 50 passengers back from Inverurie and skips Dyce again, inconveniencing a further 20 passengers. It has to skip Dyce twice otherwise the later Glasgow service requiring the set would depart so late that it would have to be cancelled, inconveniencing a total of 300 people during the course of that journey.

So 70 Dyce passengers are inconvenienced or 220 Dyce and Inverurie passengers have their train cancelled, or 300 Aberdeen to Glasgow passengers have their train cancelled. Which is best?

None of the options are in any way satisfactory but are based on the use of a finite stock and crew resource. It's Scotrail's lack of organisation and resource that we need to be upset over rather than skip stopping, which is no more than a symptom of the underlying problem. At the risk of repeating myself, focusing on skipping lets them off the hook, we have to move the discussion on from it.

 

[Deltic1961]

I get your point, but the average punter doesn't know about knock on effect etc. and doesn't really care.

I agree the stop skipping is a consequence of other more serious issues at Scotrail. So many promises but personally in it's current state I can't see things getting better any time soon.

In Dyce and Inverurie there are many people who have just deserted Scotrail because they are genuinely sick of cancellations and delays. The £170 million A2I project is a great idea but we need an operator who can support the new infrastructure and sadly Scotrail in it's current form isn't it. the new redoubled line is just a waste of money right now.

 

[Christmas]

I’ve heard a rumour that drivers who have recently left ScotRail to go to Virgin, LNER, Transpennine etc.. are getting cold calls out of the blue to let them know that if they find the grass isn’t greener and they ever want to come back then there will be a job waiting for them.

I'm told that morale is at an all time low amongst not just drivers but all traincrew. Do Scotrail seriously think that those staff who have been fortunate enough to escape to other rail firms would cone running back for less pay and the same hassle they just left? Guards now leaving for TPE, Virgin and GBRf as well as scores of drivers.

At a time when drivers are leaving left, right and centre Scotrail decide to impliment more rules and disciplinary tools to beat them with. The latest being a crackdown on delays and attribution. They are quickly losing any goodwill that is still there, result being fewer rest days worked and more cancellations. Amateurish handling of an impending crisis.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm told that morale is at an all time low amongst not just drivers but all traincrew. Do Scotrail seriously think that those staff who have been fortunate enough to escape to other rail firms would cone running back for less pay and the same hassle they just left? Guards now leaving for TPE, Virgin and GBRf as well as scores of drivers.

At a time when drivers are leaving left, right and centre Scotrail decide to impliment more rules and disciplinary tools to beat them with. The latest being a crackdown on delays and attribution. They are quickly losing any goodwill that is still there, result being fewer rest days worked and more cancellations. Amateurish handling of an impending crisis.

Can you provide more details of this ‘crackdown’ as it affects drivers. Given that performance is so poor it is obviously necessary to get as good a handle on the reasons for every delay as possible.

 

[Deltic1961]

I just had a look at the now removed PDF with the figures for stop skipping.

What I don't understand is that the evening service from Edinburgh Waverley to Inverurie arriving at 18:45 (on the previous timetable) was repeatedly terminated at Aberdeen on the way up. It never ever got as far as Dyce or Inverurie so that's stop skipping. It says on that sheet 0 for Dyce ???????

 

[Sirius]

I just had a look at the now removed PDF with the figures for stop skipping.

What I don't understand is that the evening service from Edinburgh Waverley to Inverurie arriving at 18:45 (on the previous timetable) was repeatedly terminated at Aberdeen on the way up. It never ever got as far as Dyce or Inverurie so that's stop skipping. It says on that sheet 0 for Dyce ???????

It only counts skips where it continues in passenger service to an advertised destination.

For example a Helensburgh/Milngavie to Edinburgh terminated and started back at Bathgate doesn’t count as a skip for Livingston North, Uphall, Edinburgh Park, Haymarket or Edinburgh in either direction. It’s officially cancelled for those stations, not skipped.

It has to run express in passenger service to Edinburgh to count as a skip for the intermediate stops eastbound.

 

[47271]

I just had a look at the now removed PDF with the figures for stop skipping.

What I don't understand is that the evening service from Edinburgh Waverley to Inverurie arriving at 18:45 (on the previous timetable) was repeatedly terminated at Aberdeen on the way up. It never ever got as far as Dyce or Inverurie so that's stop skipping. It says on that sheet 0 for Dyce ???????

No, I think that's a part cancellation.

We were plagued with these on the Highland Main Line during the staff training shambles. An Edinburgh to Inverness train would only start out from Perth for example. I'd only call it skipping when the service makes the full distance but misses intermediate stops, but others may have a more accurate definition.

 

[Highlandspring]

There are three types of Reliability Events recorded in TRUST; these are termed Full Cancellation, Part Cancellation and Fail to Stop. The latter can be broken down further into two types.

A Full Cancellation is where a service does not start its scheduled journey and does not run at all, even in part.

A Part Cancellation is recorded where a train starts at a point on its schedule other than the booked origin, or terminates at a point on its schedule other than the booked destination.

A Fail To Stop is recorded in the system either a) where a train is diverted from its booked route and therefore cannot call at one or more booked stops or b) where a train runs through a station it is booked to call at but does not stop for whatever reason. These are what the media refers to as “skip stopping”.

 

[Deltic1961]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ld0595]

Scotrail are warning of at least 40 cancellations tomorrow - most if not all due to a staff shortage. Seems to be mostly on the Fife Circle and Edinburgh to Glasgow via Cumbernauld lines.

As someone who isn't too familiar with how the railways are operated, I really cannot understand why we are still having this over three months after the timetable change. The HSTs and 385s have been here for a number of months now, so why is this still happening? I appreciate that Abellio haven't had it easy with the 385 and HST delays, and especially with a number of HST failures over the past few days have thrown everything out of order. I'm sure there's other good excuses for it, but I find it mad how much disruption we are still having due to staff shortages. It also appears that the 365s are beginning to be withdrawn too despite diesels still running under the wires between Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane and Stirling and their lease not expiring for over a month at least. Why is this?

I hope someone can clarify it for me, but I just find it madness. I've personally been sympathetic to Abellio in the past, but the situation seems inexcusable by now.

 

[380101]

Scotrail are warning of at least 40 cancellations tomorrow - most if not all due to a staff shortage. Seems to be mostly on the Fife Circle and Edinburgh to Glasgow via Cumbernauld lines.

As someone who isn't too familiar with how the railways are operated, I really cannot understand why we are still having this over three months after the timetable change. The HSTs and 385s have been here for a number of months now, so why is this still happening? I appreciate that Abellio haven't had it easy with the 385 and HST delays, and especially with a number of HST failures over the past few days have thrown everything out of order. I'm sure there's other good excuses for it, but I find it mad how much disruption we are still having due to staff shortages. It also appears that the 365s are beginning to be withdrawn too despite diesels still running under the wires between Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane and Stirling and their lease not expiring for over a month at least. Why is this?

I hope someone can clarify it for me, but I just find it madness. I've personally been sympathetic to Abellio in the past, but the situation seems inexcusable by now.

365s are being withdrawn as there is more 385s coming into service which will take over the diagrams. They are also utterly unreliable units that have had multiple failures recently, which have caused major delays.

 

[Stopper]

Providing there is a sufficient number of 385s available (with no short-forming), this is the correct decision. In my experience the 365s have been utterly dreadful. Unreliable, unclean, loud/noisy and uncomfortable units. Which was a disappointment after the hype and good reports they arrived with. They effectively ‘did their job’ but the 385s are arriving more and more now and they’re far superior, more suitable units.

 

[Journeyman]

Providing there is a sufficient number of 385s available (with no short-forming), this is the correct decision. In my experience the 365s have been utterly dreadful. Unreliable, unclean, loud/noisy and uncomfortable units. Which was a disappointment after the hype and good reports they arrived with. They effectively ‘did their job’ but the 385s are arriving more and more now and they’re far superior, more suitable units.

I enjoyed the 365s and found them quite pleasant to travel in, and they seemed reliable enough when they arrived, but I agree, they were only meant to be a temporary stopgap, and if there's better and more suitable stock available, there's no point in keeping them. What they can do is extremely limited in Scotland anyway.

 

[Southsider]

Providing there is a sufficient number of 385s available (with no short-forming), this is the correct decision. In my experience the 365s have been utterly dreadful. Unreliable, unclean, loud/noisy and uncomfortable units. Which was a disappointment after the hype and good reports they arrived with. They effectively ‘did their job’ but the 385s are arriving more and more now and they’re far superior, more suitable units.

From my reading of various posts the problem seems to be a lack of crew for the new units, I would have thought their introduction should have been dovetailed with crew availability. This seems elementary so there must be more to it than that.

 

[InOban]

I wonder whether some guards are declining to work overtime/rest days in the run-up to the RMT negotiations over payment for these?