EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

It's incredible you even have to make these posts to rebut conspiracy theories!

The poster's real.

It's the politicians who are fake.

 

[furnessvale]

So whilst it doesn't explicitly say, vote leave and we'll spend £350 million a week extra on the NHS, it is certainly implied.

So was the "implication" in the oft repeated remainer statement that a vote for remain was a vote for the "status quo".

Despite what remain say, this was taken by many to be a statement that nothing in the EU would change, whereas remainers say it means remaining in the EU, which is constantly evolving and will eventually become the United States of Europe.

Technically, remainers were correct, just like the red bus was technically correct.

 

[furnessvale]

It's exactly the same with the no-deal stuff now - many of the people behind vote leave are trying to convince people that no-deal is exactly what we voted for, and they never suggested that staying members of the single market would be a good idea. Even though there is tons of evidence with Farage / Johnson / Gove all saying our single market membership is not at risk, or that a Norway style membership would be a good option, plenty of people are now believing they never said anything like that and it's only the remoaners trying to take Brexit away that are suggesting they did. It's almost cult like behaviour!

Can anyone tell me what "deals" we have with all the other countries in the world with which we "deal"?

 

[NoMorePacers]

So was the "implication" in the oft repeated remainer statement that a vote for remain was a vote for the "status quo".

Despite what remain say, this was taken by many to be a statement that nothing in the EU would change, whereas remainers say it means remaining in the EU, which is constantly evolving and will eventually become the United States of Europe.

Technically, remainers were correct, just like the red bus was technically correct.

You say that like a United States of Europe would be a bad thing...

 

[furnessvale]

You say that like a United States of Europe would be a bad thing...

That is your opinion which I respect. I would have even more respect if such ideas had been more clearly laid out at the time of the referendum.

 

[EM2]

whereas remainers say it means remaining in the EU,

True.

which is constantly evolving

True.

and will eventually become the United States of Europe.

No evidence.

 

[EM2]

Can anyone tell me what "deals" we have with all the other countries in the world with which we "deal"?

Our trade arrangements with those countries are those that we have as part of the EU.

 

[furnessvale]

True.

True.

No evidence.

A comparatively short time ago there was no evidence the EU wanted its own army, finance minister, taxes or foreign minister. Have patience, all will be revealed, but in small steps.

 

[furnessvale]

Our trade arrangements with those countries are those that we have as part of the EU.

The "deal" is not a trade deal, the EU will not even open discussions on that until after we have left, thanks to the bumbling agreement of our remainer PM.

 

[EM2]

The "deal" is not a trade deal, the EU will not even open discussions on that until after we have left, thanks to the bumbling agreement of our remainer PM.

So what other kind of deal do we need with other countries?

 

[404250]

Wow. Some of you really need to calm down. All I said was that the photo looked photoshopped. I accept it wasn't, just commented that it looked it on 1st glance.
I voted remain and you're shouting at me as if I'm head of UKIP. Chill out.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is the banner to his side and not behind him? Photoshop?

Oh yeh. Certainly looks like it though. Not saying the banner wasn't ever used but even the ITV photo looks altered in some way.

are you for real? Our society is in so much trouble. People have gone completely crackers and will believe any old guff they see on the internet as if it is a credible source.

It's exactly the same with the no-deal stuff now - many of the people behind vote leave are trying to convince people that no-deal is exactly what we voted for, and they never suggested that staying members of the single market would be a good idea. Even though there is tons of evidence with Farage / Johnson / Gove all saying our single market membership is not at risk, or that a Norway style membership would be a good option, plenty of people are now believing they never said anything like that and it's only the remoaners trying to take Brexit away that are suggesting they did. It's almost cult like behaviour!

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

 

[404250]

are you for real? Our society is in so much trouble. People have gone completely crackers and will believe any old guff they see on the internet as if it is a credible source.

Yeh, I thought the photo looked odd. Not sure what you're trying to get at here.

 

[DarloRich]

Yeh, I thought the photo looked odd. Not sure what you're trying to get at here.

really? I am getting at the fact that youngsters seem to be serious lacking in critical thought and simply accept things they see on the internet as truth. But that was fairly obvious wasn't it?

 

[404250]

Got that point, but wasn't sure why you asked if I was for real. The photo I initially questioned is genuine.

 

[dosxuk]

Can anyone tell me what "deals" we have with all the other countries in the world with which we "deal"?

There are thousands upon thousands of deals, treaties and agreements that we have signed up to with other countries, both independently and as part of our membership of various international bodies, such as the UN, NATO, ITU, and obviously, the EU.

A few examples would be the The Antarctic Treaty, The Sino-British Joint Declaration or the Five Eyes Treaty. And only the other day we agreed a trade deal with Japan (although we may be abandoning that after all in a couple of weeks).

The EU is far from the only international body we deal with, whose membership requires us to abide by rules formed by the leadership of those bodies. Leaving the EU is not going to mean we can just do whatever we want without any foreigner influencing those decisions.

Despite what remain say, this was taken by many to be a statement that nothing in the EU would change, whereas remainers say it means remaining in the EU, which is constantly evolving and will eventually become the United States of Europe.

Yes, the EU will be continuing to evolve. Except you're forgetting, that as a member, we not only had a veto to stop then doing things we didn't agree with, and secondly we had agreed a specific opt-out from the "ever closer union" stuff. We literally had permission to stay outside of a USoE, while still remaining members! And don't go with "but they'll force us in anyway" because the evidence suggests otherwise (pound vs euro, schengen vs not-schengen).

 

[eotw]

By my reckoning every EU country has suffered, within living memory, at least one of invasion, occupation, civil war or dictatorship - except Sweden, Ireland, Malta (but it came pretty close) and the UK.

Ireland? Really? Where the "Troubles" not a civil war? Is the Irish Civil War of 1922-23 in living memory?

 

[Esker-pades]

A comparatively short time ago there was no evidence the EU wanted its own army, finance minister, taxes or foreign minister. Have patience, all will be revealed, but in small steps.

So, there isn't evidence, but it may exist at some point in the future?

Inside the EU we have the power to limit or outright block things. Outside, we have no ability to influence EU policy, which we will be affected by one way or another whatever kind of Brexit we have. 40-45% of trade is still with the EU, and we will have to follow their rules, for example. The spillover effect is not negligible.

 

[Ianno87]

Ireland? Really? Where the "Troubles" not a civil war? Is the Irish Civil War of 1922-23 in living memory?

And Malta's WWII experience was bad enough to warrant the entire island being awarded the George Cross!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, there isn't evidence, but it may exist at some point in the future?

Inside the EU we have the power to limit or outright block things. Outside, we have no ability to influence EU policy, which we will be affected by one way or another whatever kind of Brexit we have. 40-45% of trade is still with the EU, and we will have to follow their rules, for example. The spillover effect is not negligible.

A comparison worth some thought is how we've had to follow US laws like Sarbanes-Oxley just to do business with them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose this coming Tuesday will see actuality overtake conspiracy theories when the votes are cast for the options on offer.

 

[Esker-pades]

I suppose this coming Tuesday will see actuality overtake conspiracy theories when the votes are cast for the options on offer.

You appear to have much more confidence in MPs than I do!

 

[edwin_m]

Ireland? Really? Where the "Troubles" not a civil war? Is the Irish Civil War of 1922-23 in living memory?

There are good reasons to think that.

And Malta's WWII experience was bad enough to warrant the entire island being awarded the George Cross!

And as I acknowledged in the previous post Malta had it very badly but wasn't actually invaded.

But if you take these ones too, it's fair to say that every EU member except Sweden has been directly affected by armed conflict within living memory - though England Wales and Scotland much less than most. And of course the Irish "troubles" continued well after both countries joined the EU, but EU membership was an important contributor to the Good Friday Agreement which largely marked an end to them. Despite claiming to be Unionists, the actions of some of the hardline Brexiters seem to be threatening that.

 

[Esker-pades]

There are good reasons to think that.


And as I acknowledged in the previous post Malta had it very badly but wasn't actually invaded.

But if you take these ones too, it's fair to say that every EU member except Sweden has been directly affected by armed conflict within living memory - though England Wales and Scotland much less than most. And of course the Irish "troubles" continued well after both countries joined the EU, but EU membership was an important contributor to the Good Friday Agreement which largely marked an end to them. Despite claiming to be Unionists, the actions of some of the hardline Brexiters seem to be threatening that.

My emphasis.
What is "living memory" to you? What are you basing that from?

I do agree with your final point about the GFA and the actions of Brexiteers since then.

 

[Con]

A comparatively short time ago there was no evidence the EU wanted its own army, finance minister, taxes or foreign minister. Have patience, all will be revealed, but in small steps.

Sinn Féin used to bang that particular drum at every Europe related referendum in the Republic, until they became born-again Europeans. As far back as 1987 and the referendum on the Single European Act, they claimed that conscription into a EU Army was just around the corner. Spoiler - it wasn’t. My favourite bit of phooey during a referendum campaign, this time for the revised Treaty of Nice, was that it would only benefit military spending. Their poster had a particularly tasty looking tank, and royally had the mick taken out of it, by pro-Nice campaigners saying, more or less “why can’t the impecunious Irish Defence Forces have some nice ****-off tanks like Sinn Féin are saying we’ll be forced to have”. Spoiler - the Irish Defence Forces still don’t have any tanks, and there still isn’t a EU Army.

 

[tomglazed]

really? I am getting at the fact that youngsters seem to be serious lacking in critical thought and simply accept things they see on the internet as truth. But that was fairly obvious wasn't it?

Of all topics you can’t lump us “youngsters” into a the bucket of lacking critical thought is a discussion of Brexit. I can’t speak for all but we seem much more adept at applying critical thinking to any sources of news, especially online. Where I certainly saw many sad examples of older generations sharing a reposting anything on social media that suited their own Project Fear narrative.

Btw, when I say project fear. I think it’s time that be reclaimed because I find it absurd for people who voted to leave to call financial projects and other predictions from experts (who have a high accuracy rate but yes are human and get things wrong) project fear yet don’t see the ghastly material put out by Leave as also Project Fear but arguably on a far worst scale?

 

[404250]

I think everyone accepts the general info of project fear to some extent - the economy will be worse off initially and growth may stall. There will be additional delays at ports etc etc. More relevant now is whether people feel the initial negative aspects of leaving outway what they feel will be positive in the long term.

 

[404250]

Obviously some feel there will be zero positives in the long term

 

[edwin_m]

My emphasis.
What is "living memory" to you? What are you basing that from?

I do agree with your final point about the GFA and the actions of Brexiteers since then.

Loosely, I would say living memory is the period that a significant proportion of the population experienced at an age where they could remember it, so that most younger people could if they wished ask somebody who was there at the time. That puts it between 80 and 100 years, so I'd say WW2 was in but events in Ireland in the early 1920s are borderline.

 

[edwin_m]

I think everyone accepts the general info of project fear to some extent - the economy will be worse off initially and growth may stall. There will be additional delays at ports etc etc. More relevant now is whether people feel the initial negative aspects of leaving outway what they feel will be positive in the long term.

Obviously some feel there will be zero positives in the long term

Absolutely.

To make up for loss of trade with the EU there will be a rush to get agreements with the US in particular, where we will have no leverage as a desparate party against a much larger economy and will have to accept their terms. Among other things this will result in a flood of cheap but lower-standard agricultural products. More equal trading agreements with such as New Zealand would result in very little actual trade, because the direct and indirect costs of travel and transport would make it cheaper for the other party to trade with nearer countries (an opportunity we would have mostly foregone as our nearby market is the EU).

Though based in the UK I have worked on various engineering projects for countries across the globe. So this is quite possible today if you have a local presence or partner and a specialist skill that isn't available locally, or go the expat route that isn't affected by trade agreements but doesn't do much for the UK economy. But you aren't going to sell a lot of general engineering because you will never be cost-competitive against either local skills or outsourcing to low-cost economies such as China and India, and any number of trade agreements won't change that. I'd also point out that my employer delivers international engineering work from the UK, but relies on citizens from the rest of the EU being willing and able to work here as there aren't enough British engineers. The UK offices also work closely with others in the rest of the EU to supply the range of expertise needed. Not referring specifically to my employer, it's likely that if either of these become more difficult many businesses will move much of this type of work to other EU countries. That's entirely separate from the likes of Japanese carmakers moving their business out of the UK.

So basically it's all downside as far as I'm concerned.