New departure rule in Belgium since June 2018

[Groningen]

I am not so sure if someone has this already posted, but since June 2018 the departure rule in Belgium has changed. The guard on the train closes all doors of the train 30 seconds before the advertized departure time. Even the door of the guard.

 

[306024]

Witnessed this in action at Brugge today, although the guards door only closed 10 seconds before departure. Guard of our train (running 5 mins late) announces connection, only for guard of connecting train to shut the doors to ensure a right time departure. Connecting train departed on time to the second but without connecting passengers, who needn't have bothered running. Next train 59 minutes later.

 

[geoffk]

Witnessed this in action at Brugge today, although the guards door only closed 10 seconds before departure. Guard of our train (running 5 mins late) announces connection, only for guard of connecting train to shut the doors to ensure a right time departure. Connecting train departed on time to the second but without connecting passengers, who needn't have bothered running. Next train 59 minutes later.

Just like Britain then. Performance targets come first. There is greater reliance on connections on the continent, often cross-platform, and from my experience they seem to work. Unreliability of connections here is probably one of the reasons for through services, e.g. to Manchester Airport from everywhere.

 

[paddington]

I was on a train at Liege-Guillemins towards St Lambert a few days ago. The guard had locked the doors and was ready to go, but the signaller said no and we waited for 15+ minutes; meanwhile people were arriving on the platform and wanted to get on. I decided that I wanted to get off but the guard said it was not possible to unlock the doors until we had gone to the next station.

After another 10 minutes the doors mysteriously opened but the guard hadn't done anything - perhaps it was the driver

 

[bahnause]

Just like Britain then. Performance targets come first.

Performance is passengers arriving on time, not trains leaving on time.

 

[yorkie]

Performance is passengers arriving on time, not trains leaving on time.

Not on the railway, it isn't. At least not in the UK.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

I was on a train at Liege-Guillemins towards St Lambert a few days ago. The guard had locked the doors and was ready to go, but the signaller said no and we waited for 15+ minutes; meanwhile people were arriving on the platform and wanted to get on. I decided that I wanted to get off but the guard said it was not possible to unlock the doors until we had gone to the next station.

For some reason the Belgian dispatch procedure is to close the doors (except for the local door), give the AVG (station duties complete) by means of a key switch which sets off a light in the box, close the local door and when the signals is open and (I belive) 10 seconds have elapsed, a orange circle of dots will appear, giving the driver permission to depart.
The reasoning is that otherwise stations like Brussel-Zuid would have problems with routes set for trains not ready to depart blocking others. It is probably one of the strangest things about Belgian railways.

 

[306024]

Performance is passengers arriving on time, not trains leaving on time.

A very profound statement. In Switzerland my experience is that trains do wait the odd minute or two for connections, yet in many cases seem to have just that slight bit of slack in the schedules (no I won’t call it padding) to absorb such minor delays.

In Brugge today the unlucky passengers were running from platform 10 to platform 7 via the subway, so stood no chance.

 

[yorkie]

.... In Switzerland my experience is that trains do wait the odd minute or two for connections...

Switzerland are better than most other countries in this respect, based on what I've seen.

For some reason the Belgian dispatch procedure is to close the doors (except for the local door), give the AVG (station duties complete) by means of a key switch which sets off a light in the box, close the local door and when the signals is open and (I belive) 10 seconds have elapsed, a orange circle of dots will appear, giving the driver permission to depart.
The reasoning is that otherwise stations like Brussel-Zuid would have problems with routes set for trains not ready to depart blocking others. It is probably one of the strangest things about Belgian railways.

Yes I saw this in action last weekend. The button has similarities with our 'TRTS' (Train Ready To Start) buttons, except TRTS can be pressed before the train is actually ready and always before the doors are locked! So the concept of how it works in Belgium is very different indeed. @maniacmartin told me about it about a week before I went, so it wasn't a surprise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Switzerland are better than most other countries in this respect, based on what I've seen.

Yes I saw this in action last weekend. The button has similarities with our 'TRTS' (Train Ready To Start) buttons, except TRTS can be pressed before the train is actually ready and always before the doors are locked! So the concept of how it works in Belgium is very different indeed. @maniacmartin told me about it about a week before I went, so it wasn't a surprise.

Doesn't sound massively different to bat and flag, where the green flag is shown to the dispatcher with the train not ready to go.

 

[bahnause]

A very profound statement. In Switzerland my experience is that trains do wait the odd minute or two for connections, yet in many cases seem to have just that slight bit of slack in the schedules (no I won’t call it padding) to absorb such minor delays.

Switzerland (or at least SBB) changed the performance targets from measuring the punctuality of the thrains to measuring the punctuality of passengers. Breaking a connection or cancelling a train will make passengers 30 minutes or an hour late and will affect the statistics accordingly.

Every timetable needs a bit of slack, otherwise the system would never be able to recover from major or minor incidents. In my experience the swiss infrastructure (and rulebook) is much more flexible. It‘s hard to find a line without bidirectional signalling these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Switzerland (or at least SBB) changed the performance targets from measuring the punctuality of the thrains to measuring the punctuality of passengers. Breaking a connection or cancelling a train will make passengers 30 minutes or an hour late and will affect the statistics accordingly.

It would be an excellent idea for the UK to move to that system - particularly as it's much easier to measure now far more people travel on train-specific tickets.

In essence I guess it would be a case of applying Delay Repay 15 as a penalty even if the passengers don't get that money.

 

[MarcVD]

The 'button' on the platforms is in fact a keyhole, that the guard manoeuvers with his Berne key, turn clockwise to activate, or anticlockwise to cancel. It's name 'IOT' for Indicateur Opérations Terminees'. The procedure used to be the following :
. Guard closes all doors but his own one
. Guard walks to the nearest IOT box on the platform and activates it
. Departure signals on the platforms turn red
. Guard walks back to the door he left open and embarks
. 7 seconds after activation, the red light is replaced by a crown of 6 white or yellow
. The driver starts the train
. Guard observes departure and closes last door when train leaves platforms

This procedure was already in place before IOTs were deployed, and is also still used on small stations where IOTs do not exist. In that case they are replaced by a hand signal or with a lamp at night. The IOTs make the communication between guard and driver way more reliable, at the price of some more seconds at each stop.

On large stations the activation of IOTs is displayed in the signal box so that signalmen can open the departure signals only when they are sure that the train is ready to leave.

The procedure was changed because of an increased number of conflicts between guards and passengers trying to board the train at the last minute through the only door that was still open. This led to some serious accidents, some of which ending up as court cases.

Now the guard does not leave his door open until the train starts but closes it immediately after he has boarded the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now the guard does not leave his door open until the train starts but closes it immediately after he has boarded the train.

So another country like the UK which has moved to a more dangerous departure procedure whereby the guard cannot watch for Passenger Train Interface (PTI) issues on departure.

 

[MarcVD]

PTI ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

PTI ?

Sorry, Platform Train Interface.

If the guard stands by a closed door during departure, they cannot see if e.g. someone falls between the train and platform as it departs, or somebody has a coat or bag or similar trapped in the door and is being dragged along.

 

[MarcVD]

Yeah, and if the guard observes anything like that, what will he be able to do anyway ? Pull the alarm signal ? Will most probably be too late anyway...

 

[Aictos]

Performance is passengers arriving on time, not trains leaving on time.

Actually I think you find in the UK it's Trains Arriving On Time that the performance measures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, and if the guard observes anything like that, what will he be able to do anyway ? Pull the alarm signal ?

Yes. Or in the UK (don't know if Belgium has the equivalent), on the buzzer until the brakes kick in.

Will most probably be too late anyway...

Depends how fast the train was moving.

 

[Segedunum]

Having witnessed a dispute at Brussels-Nord station around August 2017 where a passenger attempted to outpace an IC train and jump on, only to be stopped by the conductor, I'm not surprised this has changed.

It does however feel somewhat sluggish compared to other methods like the British two on the buzzer, the Czech waving of a disc, or the Swedish viciously waving your arm in a circle.

 

[urpert]

Interested to find this discussion. I had always considered the Belgian "ring of lights" to be the closest European equivalent to our CD/RA arrangement. Though it seems to be used even at very small stations (such as those on the Liège - Jemelle line).

 

[MarcVD]

The presence of IOT signals in very small stations is a remnant of the time when this station was served by rakes of cars hauled by diesel locos. With that kind of trains there is no communication mechanism available between the guard and the driver. With modern EMUs or DMUs those signals are absolutely unnecessary, as the driver can control the state of the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The presence of IOT signals in very small stations is a remnant of the time when this station was served by rakes of cars hauled by diesel locos. With that kind of trains there is no communication mechanism available between the guard and the driver. With modern EMUs or DMUs those signals are absolutely unnecessary, as the driver can control the state of the doors.

In old LHCS days in the UK, the driver would look back and the guard give a green flag out of his door.

CD-RA in the UK is used on DOO systems where it is felt better to have dispatchers than for the driver to dispatch on his own. You also get only RA used for guarded dispatch at a few stations e.g. Euston, the reason for this is because the RA is interlocked with the signals so "ding ding and away" accidents, where the guard erroneously dispatches a train against a red signal, cannot occur.

 

[MarcVD]

In old LHCS days in the UK, the driver would look back and the guard give a green flag out of his door.

Lots of that on the Belgian railways in the past too. Not easy when the driving seat is not on the side of the platform. Personally witnessed quite a lot of mistakes...