My idea to abolish seat reservations

[Indigo Soup]

Precisely. "Business Travellers" isn't top execs travelling around in first class.

If anything, it's predominantly middle-management/professional-types travelling to meetings with their laptop in tow (being a bit stereotypical).

The idea that business travellers go First Class seems to date to an era when only very senior people travelled on business, perhaps with an underling in tow to handle the admin and luggage. Since there were few of them, and I suspect travelling less than nowadays, the perk of First Class travel didn't cost the company much.

Nowadays, the underlings (and I count myself in their number) get sent away without the very senior people, and more often. That's a much more substantial cost that no responsible company will put up with, especially with First Class fares hiked to eyewatering levels to extract as much as possible from business travellers.

I'd be sad to see First Class go away entirely, but I think that the freebies need to go away - they must be disproportionately expensive. Mind you, it's not like operators would drop fares if they cut service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be sad to see First Class go away entirely, but I think that the freebies need to go away - they must be disproportionately expensive. Mind you, it's not like operators would drop fares if they cut service.

I think they need to - in particular reasonably-priced upgrades, particularly off-peak, will attract self-upgraders. Also look at airline loyalty schemes which commonly offer upgrades etc.

 

[aar0]

Is the London to Edinburgh train really that busy all the way at the times you use it?

The worst I've had is a combination of standing and sitting on the floor near the door (with many others and luggage piled up) from Reading to Manchester in the late 1990's on a Friday evening.

I've stood from London to Newcastle in the recent past, and been on GWR HSTs with a reservation but no way of physically getting to it for over an hour.

 

[anme]

I think there's a slow race to the bottom in company travel policies too. When times are bad, perks like first class travel are cut. When times are good again, they do not get re-instated.

 

[Esker-pades]

Is the London to Edinburgh train really that busy all the way at the times you use it?

The worst I've had is a combination of standing and sitting on the floor near the door (with many others and luggage piled up) from Reading to Manchester in the late 1990's on a Friday evening.

Unless one travels at antisocial times, standard class tends to be mostly fully seated.

 

[Esker-pades]

My previous employer would allow first class if there was a valid business reason for it, and if you could get a good deal on it, so my boss had some discretion in the matter - for example, I had to travel to Peterborough, work all night and then travel home to Edinburgh in the morning, so he was happy for me to travel in first so I could get some rest.

My current employer absolutely won't budge on it - standard class only, unless you're very senior. As a result, most people here prefer flying to travelling by train to our various UK locations.

And that is the problem with a blanket ban of first class on all trains. First class on short distance - pointless. First class on long distance - there is a point.

 

[route101]

On hourly Glasgow to London trains reservations are probably a good idea but on Birmingham and Manchester to London , trains are every 20 mins , id imgaine only at peak they would be a good idea.

 

[VT 390]

On hourly Glasgow to London trains reservations are probably a good idea but on Birmingham and Manchester to London , trains are every 20 mins , id imgaine only at peak they would be a good idea.

I don't know about Manchester but whenever I travel on the Birmingham route it is busy all day.

 

[6Gman]

They aren't. 2-car DMUs are for branch lines. Demand has increased such that there are almost no reservable services (other than the oddities like the Far North Line) for which they are appropriate.

Well, exactly. They are inappropriate. Except where they are appropriate.

 

[6Gman]

On hourly Glasgow to London trains reservations are probably a good idea but on Birmingham and Manchester to London , trains are every 20 mins , id imgaine only at peak they would be a good idea.

Unless you're travelling as a family group. Or you have appropriate medical issues. Or are travelling with somebody with appropriate medical issues. Or ...

 

[RailWonderer]

Unless the train is completely packed then I wouldn’t sit in my reserved seat anyway. Whatever it says on your ticket should apply, the digital display above the window is prone to error. Inspectors don’t mind, but they should vouch for whatever it says on the ticket. This is Virgin of course, other ToCs I don’t know.

 

[RailWonderer]

I don't know about Manchester but whenever I travel on the Birmingham route it is busy all day.

Yes I can confirm, Birmingham - London trains I’ve seen consistently packed, whether it be 10-11am or 1pm. Glasgow trains I’ve seen half empty twice late afternoon to London and evening northbound.

 

[route101]

Unless you're travelling as a family group. Or you have appropriate medical issues. Or are travelling with somebody with appropriate medical issues. Or ...

True , maybe advance was optional reservations for seats

 

[sheff1]

I find it so weird when people don't look at reservations

Not nearly as weird as those who look at reservations and then sit there anyway. At Edinburgh - a group of four approach a table "These are reserved from Edinburgh, we will probably have to move". A couple of minutes later the people with reservations arrive - Group of four "no problem, we have just been bumped from the next coach". After departure I walked though and spotted the group of four at an unreserved table - as they had arrived well before departure and were clearly aware of reservations why not just look for a unreserved table in the first place ??

 

[route101]

Unless the train is completely packed then I wouldn’t sit in my reserved seat anyway. Whatever it says on your ticket should apply, the digital display above the window is prone to error. Inspectors don’t mind, but they should vouch for whatever it says on the ticket. This is Virgin of course, other ToCs I don’t know.

Mostof the time i move , last time i had someone else on advance sit next to me so i moved as the train was quiet , common sense for more space

 

[route101]

Not nearly as weird as those who look at reservations and then sit there anyway. At Edinburgh - a group of four approach a table "These are reserved from Edinburgh, we will probably have to move". A couple of minutes later the people with reservations arrive - Group of four "no problem, we have just been bumped from the next coach". After departure I walked though and spotted the group of four at an unreserved table - as they had arrived well before departure and were clearly aware of reservations why not just look for a unreserved table in the first place ??

See that all the time , i avoid sitting at tables on my own as your gonna have to move and unfair on groups.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I think they need to - in particular reasonably-priced upgrades, particularly off-peak, will attract self-upgraders.

They certainly need to drop fares to get bums on seats, but I can't see them actually doing it. The perception that First Class is a cash cow seems too firmly engrained.

 

[anme]

They certainly need to drop fares to get bums on seats, but I can't see them actually doing it. The perception that First Class is a cash cow seems too firmly engrained.

But filling the seats is not the aim. Maximising profit is the aim.
For example, selling one ticket for £100 is better than selling three tickets at £30.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But filling the seats is not the aim. Maximising profit is the aim.
For example, selling one ticket for £100 is better than selling three tickets at £30.

And I suppose there is that it being half empty is *actually* a selling point for 1st.

But if people stop buying First Anytimes...

 

[Esker-pades]

But filling the seats is not the aim. Maximising profit is the aim.
For example, selling one ticket for £100 is better than selling three tickets at £30.

Basic economics:
The maximum price does not necessarily equal the maximum profit. One has to find the highest price that doesn't deter significant numbers of people. On some services, selling £100 might work because it's a popular service. But, selling £100 tickets for trains at more "antisocial" hours may not make sense because it means people have no economic incentive to use the later, less crowded trains.

 

[Indigo Soup]

But filling the seats is not the aim. Maximising profit is the aim.
For example, selling one ticket for £100 is better than selling three tickets at £30.

And selling two tickets at £55 - the missing point on that curve - is better than either.

One Anytime ticket at £100 and two Advances at £30 would of course be better still!

 

[anme]

Basic economics:
The maximum price does not necessarily equal the maximum profit.

Yes... but no-one here has suggested increasing the prices of first class tickets.

One has to find the highest price that doesn't deter significant numbers of people.

You can deter as many people as you like, if a few are prepared to pay a high enough price to compensate.

I think the premise of many of the posts here is that rail companies should cut their prices for first class, so that they would fill more seats. However, rail companies employ some clever people to set their prices and maximise their profit. I am sure these people have already thought of the "drop the prices to fill more seats" strategy, and they have settled on the current balance.

On some services, selling £100 might work because it's a popular service. But, selling £100 tickets for trains at more "antisocial" hours may not make sense because it means people have no economic incentive to use the later, less crowded trains.

Rail companies want you to take the most expensive available train. They prefer you to stand on a peak time train with an expensive ticket, than to sit on an offpeak train with a cheap ticket. Their income is not changed by your comfort. OK, obviously there is a physical limit to how many people can physically get on a single train, but up to this point, it's all good for the company!

Offering cheaper tickets is about attracting people who would otherwise not travel by train. Cheaper tickets are restricted to less popular trains and sometimes to limited numbers because otherwise everyone would buy them.

Selling cheaper tickets for some trains increases income by encouraging more people to travel. But it also reduces income because some people who would otherwise have bought a more expensive ticket will instead by the cheaper ticket. There is an optimal balance to be found.

 

[anme]

And selling two tickets at £55 - the missing point on that curve - is better than either.

One Anytime ticket at £100 and two Advances at £30 would of course be better still!

Selling one ticket at £200 beats all of those!
The question is what you can actually sell in the market... remembering that everyone will prefer to pay less rather than more.

 

[Journeyman]

I think the premise of many of the posts here is that rail companies should cut their prices for first class, so that they would fill more seats. However, rail companies employ some clever people to set their prices and maximise their profit. I am sure these people have already thought of the "drop the prices to fill more seats" strategy, and they have settled on the current balance.

Absolutely right - setting fares in what is, to some extent, a free market, is very complex. BR (at least on InterCity anyway) abandoned completely distance-based fares a long time ago, and I think they were one of the first railways in the world to do so, preferring a market-based approach of time restrictions and ticket types that would fill quieter trains and generate more income on the margins. It worked very well, even though the Apex/Advance system was pretty crude in its early days.

I think Midland Mainline were a very early pioneer of modern yield management techniques. I remember being very surprised back in about 2002 when I managed to get a London to Sheffield first class ticket for a tenner. The railways have taken the approach of the airlines in quotas for various price points, but obviously can't completely do that due to the requirement to offer walk-up fares. Having known people who have been involved in fare-setting and allocating quotas of Advances to particular trains, I can tell you it's a very sophisticated business these days, and a lot of expertise and computing power goes into working out the best mix.

 

[underbank]

Whether it's trains, football stadia or cinema, "some" people will always be arrogant and selfish and ignore reserved seats and just sit where they want. The staff really need to start helping people with reserved seats and make people move if they're in a seat someone else has a ticket for.

 

[6Gman]

See that all the time , i avoid sitting at tables on my own as your gonna have to move and unfair on groups.

If the seat is unreserved why are you "gonna have to move"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the seat is unreserved why are you "gonna have to move"?

Quite. There are many reasons for wishing to sit at a table, and not all of them involve the number of people travelling. If it is unreserved, it is first come first served. If you want to ensure a table, reserve one.

 

[Ianno87]

See that all the time , i avoid sitting at tables on my own as your gonna have to move and unfair on groups.

Quite. There are many reasons for wishing to sit at a table, and not all of them involve the number of people travelling. If it is unreserved, it is first come first served. If you want to ensure a table, reserve one.

On some trains (notably Class 170s), tables are the only seats I can easily use a laptop on for a sustained period (without feeling sick).

Otherwise, I avoid sitting at them when travelling solo for those who have a greater need to use them than me.

 

[trainophile]

I used to avoid table seats due to foot space wars, but as I prefer an aisle seat (can't stand strong sunlight in my eyes for one reason, don't like to be hemmed in for another) nowadays if I am going somewhere new I tend to request a table aisle seat (on those booking sites that permit selection) simply because the view from an airline aisle seat is usually restricted. I have moved before now to allow a family to sit together, but generally I can stay put - and the bonus is that people rarely request the window seat (although obviously if they do they are very welcome to take it).

Always reserve a seat where possible, the risk of having to stand at my age does not appeal.