My idea to abolish seat reservations

[bramling]

Instead of having one unreserved coach on many trains, perhaps it would be better to have just one reserved coach.

And when they're gone, they're gone!

Sounds like a good idea. And abolishing reservations on everything other than ex Intercity routes. So in other words no reservations on 2-car DMUs.

 

[Master29]

Going against the grain a bit here but I`m in favour of reservations. What happens if you get on trains at regular points where seats would have always gone had there been no reservations?.

 

[squizzler]

Under the Rail Delivery Group's proposed fares reform the reserved seat will, I believe, become the overwhelming norm except for urban networks.

 

[whhistle]

If seat reservations were abolished, I'd rather fly from Edinburgh to London than risk having to stand for four and a half hours.

There seems to be some sort of rumour that suggests if you don't have a reservation, it means you will HAVE to stand.
I don't understand why this exists.

If there were no reservations and you boarded at Edinburgh (were more than likely the train originated from), you wouldn't have to stand.

I've only ever had to stand on heavy commuter services, or XC.

 

[whhistle]

The issue is that ultimately the TOC's run a horrendously antiquated & restrictive system of reserving seats.

I understand a little where you're coming from. However:

1) You shouldn't expect people to be able to talk to you.
It's a bit sad, but some people just aren't comfortable. Society shouldn't make them feel bad about their feelings - that just leads towards a lot more mental health problems.

2) You should have approached the Train Manager rather than got off. But I understand sometimes the way people can make you feel is that you want to just escape.

3) Charging for reservations will only be bad. The railway can suggest it's to encourage people to use the reservation they have, but the public will onyl see it as yet another way the railway can overcharge.

Some very valid thoughts though.
Fits in with a dicussion I've been having with others about trans-gender people and whether it's okay to not be able to accept them (especially if you're married to them!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like a good idea. And abolishing reservations on everything other than ex Intercity routes. So in other words no reservations on 2-car DMUs.

2-car DMUs should not be being used on any reservable services in the first place.

 

[al78]

If seat reservations were abolished, I'd rather fly from Edinburgh to London than risk having to stand for four and a half hours.

Is the London to Edinburgh train really that busy all the way at the times you use it?

The worst I've had is a combination of standing and sitting on the floor near the door (with many others and luggage piled up) from Reading to Manchester in the late 1990's on a Friday evening.

 

[al78]

Instead of having one unreserved coach on many trains, perhaps it would be better to have just one reserved coach.

And when they're gone, they're gone!

Virgin London-Manchester do it the other way around, have a couple of unreserved coaches and every other seat reservations available. Perhaps a compromise of 50-50 reserved and unreserved would work better.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I often find myself reserving seats simply because everyone else has. If there were no reservations, I do think it would be better. I also think people on flexible tickets would be more flexible as they don't need to travel on their booked train, as they don't have a booked seat on any train any more

 

[Llanigraham]

2-car DMUs should not be being used on any reservable services in the first place.

Why not?
Seems to work perfectly well on the Cambrian.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Actually there aren't trainloads of people willing to pay Virgin's peak time prices. Have you been on the trains? You won't have a problem getting a seat!

Agreed - though there are some who manage to board at "peak" times with good value tickets.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The Times has other ideas https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-promises-end-to-overcrowding-with-booking-app-sckm6wxsd

The same article could be written about any railway service that has required reservations.

Didn't the WCML have a system of boarding cards for walk-ups at very busy holiday times?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same article could be written about any railway service that has required reservations.

Didn't the WCML have a system of boarding cards for walk-ups at very busy holiday times?

It did, but I am very, very disappointed if a "Romance" style operational model is to be chosen for HS2. It will simply mean I will not use HS2.

Fortunately the primary benefit of HS2 for me is not HS2 itself, but improved south WCML services including more classic line fast services calling at MKC.

 

[anme]

It did, but I am very, very disappointed if a "Romance" style operational model is to be chosen for HS2. It will simply mean I will not use HS2.

Surely it wouldn't be that bad?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it wouldn't be that bad?!

I near enough exclusively travel walk-up and do not wish to change this (other than to car travel).

 

[gordonthemoron]

Actually there aren't trainloads of people willing to pay Virgin's peak time prices. Have you been on the trains? You won't have a problem getting a seat!

You obviously don't use VTWC between Milton Keynes and Euston

 

[Bletchleyite]

You obviously don't use VTWC between Milton Keynes and Euston

To be fair, those aren't VTWC's inflated Anytime fares, they are LNR's rather more reasonable ones. That's why the miserable so-and-sos won't give you a fry-up in 1st.

 

[AM9]

This is simply not how it works.

Advance tickets are sold, sometimes at cheaper prices, because that makes more money overall for the railways. "Sacrificing your flexibility" does not save the rail company any money. They are going to operate the same trains anyway. They can't decide to cancel a service because it won't carry enough people to make a profit. Offering the same seats at different prices is about extracting as much money as possible from the train service as a whole. As has been explained here hundreds of times, offering cheap tickets is actually a mixed blessing for a TOC. It is better for them to carry one passenger for £100 than four passengers for £20, even if that means three seats being empty. Simply dropping prices to fill more seats does not necessarily make more money, because it may result in people buying cheaper tickets than they would otherwise have done.

The TOCs do benefit from selling tickets for travel on trains with plenty of empty space. To do that the passenger get the benefit of a bargain fare but accepts restrictions: on which trains they can use, which times they can use them and a reduced or non-existent opportunity to get any refund even if they have no choice but to abandon the journey. If the TOCs didn't gain anything from these restrictions, then advance tickets wouldn't have any. That would also be true for off-peak and super off-peak tickets where by starting after 09:30, most buyers clearly aren't using them for travel to work.

As someone who travels on cheap tickets, you *need* the people who buy more expensive tickets to travel and buy those tickets. You pay less than your share for running the railways and they subsidise you. If they swap to the cheaper tickets, you will pay more. This is not a bad thing in itself, but please thank these people, don't patronise them with statements like "It's your lifestyle issue, you must decide".

Who subsidises who on the railways (apart from public fund subsidies) was discussed at length in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eturns-to-increase.178399/page-7#post-3885102 and it was generally agreed that most of the investment in services that originate of terminate in large conurbations are by and large required to satisfy the demand for peak time travel. The income form off-peak travellers is in effect sunsidising that so if the peak load was significantly reduced, there would be little need to invest such vast sums and the associated operational costs just satisfying that reduced demand. There is not a single major peak loaded railway anywhere that makes a profit in its own right.

 

[anme]

I near enough exclusively travel walk-up and do not wish to change this (other than to car travel).

You can walk up and travel on a TGV and I have done this many times. Tickets with seat reservations are available up to departure, and flexible tickets allow reservations to be changed (including at ticket machines). I'm not necessarily promoting such a system, and I also prefer the German approach, but let's not be dogmatic about this.

(For the record I believe some TGVs allow travel without reservations)

 

[anme]

You obviously don't use VTWC between Milton Keynes and Euston

Indeed. I am thinking of longer journeys. I was astonished at how quiet the trains often are.

 

[anme]

The TOCs do benefit from selling tickets for travel on trains with plenty of empty space.

Yes. But they benefit much more when someone buys a more expensive ticket!

Who subsidises who on the railways (apart from public fund subsidies) was discussed at length in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eturns-to-increase.178399/page-7#post-3885102 and it was generally agreed that most of the investment in services that originate of terminate in large conurbations are by and large required to satisfy the demand for peak time travel. The income form off-peak travellers is in effect sunsidising that so if the peak load was significantly reduced, there would be little need to invest such vast sums and the associated operational costs just satisfying that reduced demand. There is not a single major peak loaded railway anywhere that makes a profit in its own right.

These arguments were put forward in a somewhat self-serving manner by people who travel for leisure and don't want to pay more.

I am not saying that cheaper tickets with restrictions shouldn't be available. I buy them myself. But let's not deny the obvious point that someone paying £350 for a ticket is contributing far more to the railways than someone paying £50, and let's not insult the person paying £350 by sneering at their "lifestyle choices", as one poster did above.

If no-one pays for more expensive tickets, the cheap tickets would not be available!

 

[6Gman]

2-car DMUs should not be being used on any reservable services in the first place.

Why not if they are the appropriate unit to use?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not if they are the appropriate unit to use?

They aren't. 2-car DMUs are for branch lines. Demand has increased such that there are almost no reservable services (other than the oddities like the Far North Line) for which they are appropriate.

 

[AM9]

Yes. But they benefit much more when someone buys a more expensive ticket!



These arguments were put forward in a somewhat self-serving manner by people who travel for leisure and don't want to pay more.

I am not saying that cheaper tickets with restrictions shouldn't be available. I buy them myself. But let's not deny the obvious point that someone paying £350 for a ticket is contributing far more to the railways than someone paying £50, and let's not insult the person paying £350 by sneering at their "lifestyle choices", as one poster did above.

If no-one pays for more expensive tickets, the cheap tickets would not be available!

If there wasn't a ridiculous peaked demand for services over about four hours per day, the railway would be much cheaper to run. Those who think that even after the infrastructure has been extended at great cost and rolling stock provisioned that spends most of the day in sidings waiting for the next peak run (singular in many cases), that their discounted fares*, subsidise those that use trains that would otherwise be empty, is a total misunderstanding of the transport business. The same issue was prevalenmt in BR days, (when I commuted) and has also been covered elsewhere or other world cities where peak demand is provided at great cost. I don't know hwether the self-interest arguments of the subsidised commuters are as prevalent as here though. In the US, there are some routes where there are only services in the peak, - at least we have the common sense to encourage use of expensively provisioned assets to try and reduce daytime road traffic.
* given that most of them are travelling on season tickets

 

[anme]

If there wasn't a ridiculous peaked demand for services over about four hours per day, the railway would be much cheaper to run. Those who think that even after the infrastructure has been extended at great cost and rolling stock provisioned that spends most of the day in sidings waiting for the next peak run (singular in many cases), that their discounted fares*, subsidise those that use trains that would otherwise be empty, is a total misunderstanding of the transport business. The same issue was prevalenmt in BR days, (when I commuted) and has also been covered elsewhere or other world cities where peak demand is provided at great cost. I don't know hwether the self-interest arguments of the subsidised commuters are as prevalent as here though. In the US, there are some routes where there are only services in the peak, - at least we have the common sense to encourage use of expensively provisioned assets to try and reduce daytime road traffic.
* given that most of them are travelling on season tickets

£350 > £89. (prices of London to Manchester peak and offpeak returns)

 

[Bletchleyite]

£350 > £89. (prices of London to Manchester peak and offpeak returns)

I think he was referring to South East season tickets which, for a 5 days a week commute, cost about the same as off peak returns.

 

[shredder1]

Save a lot of time and messing about and get rid of all seat reservations and if your ticket is for that train then thats the train you have to be on and just find a seat. Its actually un fair if someone has bought a ticket months in advance and paid very little for there ticket as against buying one on the day from the station who has paid a lot more and then can,t get a seat is that fair? as all the seats are taken by the early bookers.
When did the £1 fee finnish? for seat reservations and how much would it be these days if it was still in force?
I wonder how many would be willing to pay for a seat reservation at todays prices as compared with the £1 years ago.

Yes totally agree. I think first class has also had its day.

 

[anme]

I think he was referring to South East season tickets which, for a 5 days a week commute, cost about the same as off peak returns.

We were actually discussing advance tickets. Nevertheless, unless someone is buying off peak tickets five times per week, their financial contribution to the railways is going to be less than a season ticket holder.

To come back to my original point on this thread - I am not against cheaper off peak or restricted tickets being available. In fact, I always try and avoid paying ridiculously high prices such as £350 return between London and Manchester, whether I'm travelling for business or pleasure. But please understand that expensive tickets obviously fund the service more than cheaper tickets. Or to put it another way, £350 tickets must be sold as well as £89 or £50 or £30 tickets or those cheaper tickets could not be offered. So let's not patronise those who buy expensive tickets by sneering at their "lifestyle choices". We need them! And sometimes I am them!

 

[Journeyman]

I think first class has also had its day.

Get rid of first class, and the railways have lost me as a long-distance passenger for good.

Edinburgh to London in first class can be done for £60. At that price it's an absolute no-brainer.

 

[Journeyman]

£350 tickets must be sold as well as £89 or £50 or £30 tickets or those cheaper tickets could not be offered.

Absolutely true, but I suspect that quite often it isn't a case of someone choosing between a £350 ticket and a £30 ticket. Most of the time it's someone choosing between a £30 ticket, and Ryanair or Megabus. I suspect most users of Advance tickets would choose a different mode of transport if their cheap train ticket hadn't been available. It's certainly a significant factor for me - I live closer to Edinburgh Airport than either of the stations in the city, and cheap flights aren't hard to find, even on supposedly "expensive" airlines. BA are often very cheap. I won't fly Ryanair, though, I've had horrible experiences with them and life is too short, however cheap they are.