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Major Signalling Failure New St affecting Coventry Corridor

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Old Timer

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Network Rail advising major signalling failure affecting New St.

Wolves services reduced to hourly and diverted via Stafford.

National Rail Enquiries quoting 120 minute journey delays.

Extract from website.

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  • East Midlands Trains services between Nottingham and Derby
  • South West Trains services between London Waterloo and Bournemouth
  • National Express West Midlands buses between Longbridge, Birmingham and Sutton Coldfield
 
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The Planner

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Birmingham Gateway contractors cut a cable on platform 1 apparently. Massive TCFs all over the show. Took them long enough to decide to divert the Pendos via Stafford. Cross City north just isnt happening and locals out to Cov and Northampton scuppered too. 6600 minutes delay at around 3.30pm, probably over 8000 by now.
 

LTJ87

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There have been huge delays and cancellations at New Street all afternoon. I am now on the 17.03 to Edinburgh (which has been extended with two Voyagers coupled together). Unfortunately we managed to get out of New Street but have been stuck for the past 45 mins or so behind a freight train on the track that doesn't have a driver!

Fortunately we are now moving.
 
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dk1

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There have been huge delays and cancellations at New Street all afternoon. I am now on the 17.03 to Edinburgh (which has been extended with two Voyagers coupled together). Unfortunately we managed to get out of New Street but have been stuck for the past 45 mins or so behind a freight train on the track that doesn't have a driver!

Fortunately we are now moving.

Hope the shop is manned in your portion & well stocked with beer & wine. Thats the important thing now. :D
 

Geezertronic

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Makes me wonder how a contractor can cause so much disruption to a major transport interchange like Birmingham New Street by making what would seem like a very basic error. Surely a survey was done to identify cabling? I hope there are no gas mains nearby :|
 

Steel Wheels

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Makes me wonder how a contractor can cause so much disruption to a major transport interchange like Birmingham New Street by making what would seem like a very basic error. Surely a survey was done to identify cabling? I hope there are no gas mains nearby :|

Hello everyone by the way.. this appears to be my 1st post!

- I wish Bham city council and/or Network Rail would stop cutting corners ( and cables! )
I fear this is the first of many F' ups at Chateau New Street.

It would be interesting if we could find out who cut the cable. 100 Lashes on the main concourse!
 
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4 1/2 hours to get home 30 miles away<( No trains at all out on the Leicester line. XC did themselves no favours taking ages to decide to run a Leicester - Nuneaton shuttle and then only running hourly.

The replacement bus organisation was utterly abysmal.
 

mindfeeder

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Just seen a report on this incident on the local news. The reporter said "There is now an investigation under way to see if the adverse weather could have had an effect on the chaos" or words to that effect.

:lol:
 

TheBigD

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And the wisdom of not keeping the Driver and Guard together really helps during disruption. Driver trying to get to one depot and guard the other. The end result is that there is no crew to take the train anywhere!
 

LTJ87

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Hope the shop is manned in your portion & well stocked with beer & wine. Thats the important thing now. :D

Managed to get home without too much of a delay. I was lucky in picking the right train.

I was aware that there was disruption at lunchtime and thought the problem would have been fixed by the evening rush hour. I am very surprised that the whole station managed to be almost completely knocked out for so long.
 

Saltleyman

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Makes me wonder how a contractor can cause so much disruption to a major transport interchange like Birmingham New Street by making what would seem like a very basic error. Surely a survey was done to identify cabling? I hope there are no gas mains nearby :|

I think you will find that it's called "Privatisation" something to do with the "Tory" dogma of the John Major government of the 1990's,that just about sums it up really !
 

Bill EWS

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Royaloak: "Which of course was reversed by the incoming Liebore government as part of their manifesto"

Eh! Do you know somethiing that I don't! When was the railway re-Nationalised?
 

Old Timer

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Makes me wonder how a contractor can cause so much disruption to a major transport interchange like Birmingham New Street by making what would seem like a very basic error. Surely a survey was done to identify cabling? I hope there are no gas mains nearby :|
IT should be easy but then again it is not made easy, if that makes sense.

Firstly there are (were) cable route diagrams and details of the various surface and buried services.

Unfortunately Railtrack / Network Rail have reorganised that many times that a lot of records have been lost during transfers from one office to another, from one Zone/Territory to another. There is no will within NR to recreate these records.

The quiet policy adopted by NR of removing former BR people from their ranks has also resulted in an incredible loss of Corporate Memory, and the new burger bar managers and spotty faced Graduates have neither the knowledge nor the understanding of what they are dealing with, being simply concerned with playing around with virtual money. :roll:

A Competent Contractor will request details of all known services drawings and records, and when these are reported as lost will undertake site surveys to establish where these are. There are ways and means.

Unfortunately this does cost money, and usually NR refuse to pay for the necessary work that has to be done to establish where these services are, so the costs come out of our Contingency money.

A Contractor who is bidding a job cheap in order to win it, and Network Rail ALWAYS award to the cheapest bidder, will not have much if any contigency and these sorts of searches will have to come straight out of the bottom line if they are done. Generally the bottom line is thin anyway.

Network Rail Procedures as well as H&S Law require that before any ground is broken or any surface is pierced, it is scanned for the presence of cables and other services. Any live cables will thus be identified if this is done.

As an example in the differences in how the major Contractors operate, even on plain line renewals we still check for surface and buried services during the planning processs and run a CAT scan before the bucket breaks the ballast, even when this is out in the sticks.

Properly controlled and planned, no live cable should ever be struck, and in my Company to do so is an immediate disciplinary for those involved as they will not have complied with procedures.

One has to accept that NR have appropriate processes in place to take safety performance into account, however the continuing challenge we face is that of being undercut by others who maybe adopt shall we say, a less stringent, approach to safety processes than the major Infrastructure Contractors.

Good safety comes at a price, that is an inevitable fact of life. You cannot bid cheap unless you are cutting something somewhere, be it training, safety, salaries, PPE quality, or good quality staff.


As major Infrastructure Contractors we refuse to change our approach to safety and this will inevitably mean we will come in at a higher price. The quid pro quo is that we don't often create the massive losses that cable strikes can bring in terms of train performance. Sadly this counts for nothing at the tender stage.

Every single one of the major Infrastructure Contractors can give you an example of where they have lost a Contract on price, yet the final cost has been much greater and the quality of the work much worse than had the major Infrastructure Contractor been awarded the Contract in the first place.

Accountants however do not look at this, simply at whats on the table in front of them.
 

TDK

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I think you will find that it's called "Privatisation" something to do with the "Tory" dogma of the John Major government of the 1990's,that just about sums it up really !

and 10 years lated under the so called new labor government it is still privatised and will remain so,if it was such a crap idea by the Torys why aint the current government renationalised it with all the other privatised industries? I cannot see the link between a worker cutting through a cable and privatisation to be honest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IT should be easy but then again it is not made easy, if that makes sense.

Firstly there are (were) cable route diagrams and details of the various surface and buried services.

Unfortunately Railtrack / Network Rail have reorganised that many times that a lot of records have been lost during transfers from one office to another, from one Zone/Territory to another. There is no will within NR to recreate these records.

The quiet policy adopted by NR of removing former BR people from their ranks has also resulted in an incredible loss of Corporate Memory, and the new burger bar managers and spotty faced Graduates have neither the knowledge nor the understanding of what they are dealing with, being simply concerned with playing around with virtual money. :roll:

A Competent Contractor will request details of all known services drawings and records, and when these are reported as lost will undertake site surveys to establish where these are. There are ways and means.

Unfortunately this does cost money, and usually NR refuse to pay for the necessary work that has to be done to establish where these services are, so the costs come out of our Contingency money.

A Contractor who is bidding a job cheap in order to win it, and Network Rail ALWAYS award to the cheapest bidder, will not have much if any contigency and these sorts of searches will have to come straight out of the bottom line if they are done. Generally the bottom line is thin anyway.

Network Rail Procedures as well as H&S Law require that before any ground is broken or any surface is pierced, it is scanned for the presence of cables and other services. Any live cables will thus be identified if this is done.

As an example in the differences in how the major Contractors operate, even on plain line renewals we still check for surface and buried services during the planning processs and run a CAT scan before the bucket breaks the ballast, even when this is out in the sticks.

Properly controlled and planned, no live cable should ever be struck, and in my Company to do so is an immediate disciplinary for those involved as they will not have complied with procedures.

One has to accept that NR have appropriate processes in place to take safety performance into account, however the continuing challenge we face is that of being undercut by others who maybe adopt shall we say, a less stringent, approach to safety processes than the major Infrastructure Contractors.

Good safety comes at a price, that is an inevitable fact of life. You cannot bid cheap unless you are cutting something somewhere, be it training, safety, salaries, PPE quality, or good quality staff.


As major Infrastructure Contractors we refuse to change our approach to safety and this will inevitably mean we will come in at a higher price. The quid pro quo is that we don't often create the massive losses that cable strikes can bring in terms of train performance. Sadly this counts for nothing at the tender stage.

Every single one of the major Infrastructure Contractors can give you an example of where they have lost a Contract on price, yet the final cost has been much greater and the quality of the work much worse than had the major Infrastructure Contractor been awarded the Contract in the first place.

Accountants however do not look at this, simply at whats on the table in front of them.

I am sure there is equipment to detect underground services such as pipes and cables? Why was this not used?
 

Max

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There have been huge delays and cancellations at New Street all afternoon. I am now on the 17.03 to Edinburgh (which has been extended with two Voyagers coupled together). Unfortunately we managed to get out of New Street but have been stuck for the past 45 mins or so behind a freight train on the track that doesn't have a driver!

Fortunately we are now moving.

I think this must have been the train I caught from Chesterfield this evening after work at around 1920 (should have been 1803?).
 

Old Timer

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I am sure there is equipment to detect underground services such as pipes and cables? Why was this not used?
There is, I would have expected it to have been used in compliance with the Law, and had it been then it is highly unlikely this would have happened.

At one point HMRI were Prosecuting for cable strikes but Government cuts to HMRI were made, and pressure was placed on the Inspectors to go easy. Presumably to prove that Privatisation was working. HMRI has now been sufficiently emasculated to such a point under its last leaders that all the Inspectors do now is to chase paper rather than their real job of enforcement.

As long as the paperwork is OK everyone is happy.

I am assured that under the incoming Conservative Government, HMRI will be in for a big shock to its system.
 

Saltleyman

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There is, I would have expected it to have been used in compliance with the Law, and had it been then it is highly unlikely this would have happened.

At one point HMRI were Prosecuting for cable strikes but Government cuts to HMRI were made, and pressure was placed on the Inspectors to go easy. Presumably to prove that Privatisation was working. HMRI has now been sufficiently emasculated to such a point under its last leaders that all the Inspectors do now is to chase paper rather than their real job of enforcement.

As long as the paperwork is OK everyone is happy.

I am assured that under the incoming Conservative Government, HMRI will be in for a big shock to its system.

Come on OT you and I are old Railwaymen (and in some circumstances adversaries) and we both know that this situation would not not have occurred when we had a joined up railway ? The rot set in as you know with the stupid idea ( a tory one at that) that you could run a railway the same as an airport or 'bus company. you know as well as I do that it doesn't work ! so why do you you try to defend it ?
The so called "privatisation " of the railways was/is a complete disaster,a few "fat cats" have made some obscene money out of it? but at the end of the day,has it improved the railway? certainly not ? and its cost the tax payer,and I'm one of them,more than it did to finance British Rail !
 

quarella

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Network Rail Procedures as well as H&S Law require that before any ground is broken or any surface is pierced, it is scanned for the presence of cables and other services. Any live cables will thus be identified if this is done.

Earlier this week I watched a contractor scan for cables between the platform lamp posts and then spray the route on to snow that had started to melt and was being walked on. Whoever is coming to work on the cable may have a wasted journey if they aren't there soon.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Indeed Network Rail saw under surface cables as so much of a risk that (another) safety film was made about it, encouraging staff to scan.

Far away from that NR seem to have imposed double standards on their staff, and on infrastructure staff making jobs harder for everyone.

This is how it links in with privatisation. If it hadn't happened, everyone would still work for the same company, and there would be much less of a paper trail, and therefore much less risk for something to go wrong in the planning stage. Records would be easier to access and keep, therefore staff would know of the cables before they arrived on site.
 

Wyvern

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Just a thought - Instead of renationalisation we got public-private partnerships.

Technical questions - would signalling cables be as important under H&S law as power cables?

What does the acronym CAT scan stand for in this context?
 

Old Timer

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Come on OT you and I are old Railwaymen (and in some circumstances adversaries) and we both know that this situation would not not have occurred when we had a joined up railway ? The rot set in as you know with the stupid idea ( a tory one at that) that you could run a railway the same as an airport or 'bus company. you know as well as I do that it doesn't work ! so why do you you try to defend it ?
The so called "privatisation " of the railways was/is a complete disaster,a few "fat cats" have made some obscene money out of it? but at the end of the day,has it improved the railway? certainly not ? and its cost the tax payer,and I'm one of them,more than it did to finance British Rail !
Old friend, I cannot argue that point with. How could I ?

I agree that Privatisation as it was performed is, and always will be a disaster, and indeed as you know I totally disagree with the way that the Railway has gone since the demise of Railtrack.

In another thread I bemoaned the lack of joined up thinking that can clearly be seen during these poor weather conditions.

I will respond more fully to you later on.

In the meantime, New Year greetings !

Old Timer
 

djw1981

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How can THIS problem be pinned on privatisation? Accepting Old Timer's comments regarding loss of data and NR awarding the contract to the cheapest, one would have thought that on such a major multimillion contract, the contractor would have either made their own plans or been using detection equipment. I hope NR takes the contractor or insurer to town for the delay minute compensation. And the contractor then disciplines the staff responsible.
 

Old Timer

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How can THIS problem be pinned on privatisation? Accepting Old Timer's comments regarding loss of data and NR awarding the contract to the cheapest, one would have thought that on such a major multimillion contract, the contractor would have either made their own plans or been using detection equipment. I hope NR takes the contractor or insurer to town for the delay minute compensation. And the contractor then disciplines the staff responsible.
Most Contractors will either limit their liability for consequential damages, or will take out sufficient Insurance to cover most eventualities.

In many cases Contracts will limit the amount of damages liable from any failure by the Contractor, simply because many Contractors would go bankrupt if they accepted full liability.

Under previous Contract regimes, Railtrack / Network Rail operated under quite penal Liabilities clauses, until they realised that it was actually themselves who were losing out because many of the issues were down the their failure in the first place to provide information, drawings, etc.

WE then went through a recent period where Network Rail sought to completely limt their liabilities whilst requiring the Contractor to accept unlimited liability for consequential damages. This led to the Contractors then having to take action to protect their interests, such as obtaining greater levels of Insurance. The net result it that it simply put up prices such that it made the large Companies uneconomic.

As NR would not pay the costs that the larger Contractors were charging, it went to favour the smaller Contractors and Labour suppliers, who, as you would imagne refused to quote unless unlimited liability clauses were removed. We thus have a continuation of the unlevel playing field that applies to the major Infrastructure Contractors who have the greatest former BR staff and safety culture.
 

bengolding

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I was sooo glad I got the delayed 09:10 from New St to Euston on Friday morning. I missed the heavily delayed 08:10 and 08:30. The 08:50 was caoncelled due to an earlier broken down train at Hampton in Arden (the 05:30 from New St, apparently). I was told later that all VTs to Euston after the 09:10 were cancelled.
 

Old Timer

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I was sooo glad I got the delayed 09:10 from New St to Euston on Friday morning. I missed the heavily delayed 08:10 and 08:30. The 08:50 was caoncelled due to an earlier broken down train at Hampton in Arden (the 05:30 from New St, apparently). I was told later that all VTs to Euston after the 09:10 were cancelled.
0550 from New St reversed via Stafford and the rest of the services were diverted direct from Wolves to Stafford.

The 0750 was cancelled because the inwards working (0603 ex Euston) was about 120 mins late on the Down.

There was no London service from the 0550 until passengers were put on the 0752 to Nuneaton for the 0844 which itself was 20 odd late r/a a "level crossing problem" near Stoke.

The absence of Virgin staff at New St was made so much more obvious bearing in mind the place is normally swimming in them, and the Network Rail platform staff had no information forthcoming at any stage, only discovering a train was not appearing when the PSB told them it had not appeared at Dudley Port :roll::roll::roll:

The return in the evening was a complete disaster, with all Birmingham trains cancelled from Euston, and when I got there for the 1623 there were a number of passengers who had been waiting at Euston for over two hours for a Birmingham service. Seemingly nobody was able to advise them how to get there other than going to St Pancras and Derby.

The 1623 finally arrived at Wolves via Stafford at 1845, and those who were fleet of foot managed to catch the 1852 to New St otherwise having to wait a further 30 minutes for the next service.

Last week has been a week to forget as far as travelling to London was concerned. EVery day was a disaster of some description, not least Virgins insane insistence on running its full service when trains were restricted to 100/80mph running, rather than applying common sense and operating a special service which would at least have been more reliable and would have caused less annopyance and angst to those who did travel.

As far as I am concerned Virgin have come out of this poor weather very unfavourably and contributed predominantly to the truly appalling service that was operated.

Mr. Green will be receiving my views shortly.
 

bengolding

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I think Mr Green left VT a long time ago. You probably want Mr Gibb instead! :)

I was lucky in that I got on the 17:10 Holyhead as far as Nuneaton, which was on time, and First wasn't particularly busy. Nuneaton was in a mess with all XC trains cancelled.

At least I fared better than a friend who travelled from Scotland to Birmingham on Friday. Despite leaving 30 late, it arrived into New St 5.5 hours late :(. The Glasgow-Preston section seems to have fared particularly badly last week with lengthy delays. Let's hope my VT journey this morning fares better.
 

BlythPower

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Makes me wonder how a contractor can cause so much disruption to a major transport interchange like Birmingham New Street by making what would seem like a very basic error. Surely a survey was done to identify cabling? I hope there are no gas mains nearby :|

Funny you should mention gas mains - they've already hit one. The construction project has a work camp at Small Heath. During the course of setting that up they punctured a gas main on the canal bank. Quality project... :D
 
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