My idea to abolish seat reservations

[Llanigraham]

They aren't. 2-car DMUs are for branch lines. Demand has increased such that there are almost no reservable services (other than the oddities like the Far North Line) for which they are appropriate.

So 2 car DMU's that run up and down the Cambrian, or along the Marches line, are not appropriate for a service with reservable seats?
Sorry but I cannot understand where you get that (strange) idea from!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Get rid of first class, and the railways have lost me as a long-distance passenger for good.

Edinburgh to London in first class can be done for £60. At that price it's an absolute no-brainer.

I think the role of 1st is changing - it will become less of a premium product for business travellers, and more of a leisure/self upgrade product. I would however see it as likely to be abolished on all commuter services and local services, and away from the South East they haven't had it for years anyway.

 

[Parallel]

To be fair, many trains on the Cambrian line run as 4 coaches rather than two. I don’t mind 2 or 3 car trains having reservations. A credit to GWR is their Pompey 158s use reservations but I know coach C is an unreserved coach. So really, as long as a coach or an area is unreserved, I don’t see the problem. The same with the middle coach on 175/1s that work on the Marches.

When the whole train has reservations like on many XC trains, that’s the problem.

 

[185143]

I'm quite happy to confront people over that particular selfish and lazy behaviour. It's best done politely, though. "Can I help you put your bag in the overhead so I can take that seat, please?" An unfavourable response results in it being moved anyway. And "have you paid for that extra seat?" is a good sarcastic response if they carry on ranting.

I said that once. The selfish bas... err passenger produced a ticket, to which I told her a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat-so get it shifted. Was rather taken aback by the response "Exactly, so stand!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I said that once. The selfish bas... err passenger produced a ticket, to which I told her a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat-so get it shifted. Was rather taken aback by the response "Exactly, so stand!"

As in she'd bought a second ticket and showed you both?

While there's no actual entitlement to that, I think at that point I'd decide I couldn't be bothered.

 

[185143]

As in she'd bought a second ticket and showed you both?

While there's no actual entitlement to that, I think at that point I'd decide I couldn't be bothered.

Yep, she had 2 tickets.

 

[JetStream]

I find it so weird when people don't look at reservations - last week I was heading to Cardiff, and sat in a seat that had a reservation from Colwyn Bay to Shrewsbury. People just saw the ticket, and ignored it.

 

[trainophile]

I find it so weird when people don't look at reservations - last week I was heading to Cardiff, and sat in a seat that had a reservation from Colwyn Bay to Shrewsbury. People just saw the ticket, and ignored it.

Too much trouble (and too difficult) to scrutinise every paper ticket, and would hold up anyone trying to get through the aisle behind you.

 

[Journeyman]

I think the role of 1st is changing - it will become less of a premium product for business travellers, and more of a leisure/self upgrade product. I would however see it as likely to be abolished on all commuter services and local services, and away from the South East they haven't had it for years anyway.

You're right - it is indeed becoming more of a leisure product, as most companies will now only pay for it if you're very senior. You tend to get a lot more families in it now than you used to. That may well have implications for the level of freebies, if almost everyone in first is on a cheap Advance ticket. They're cheaper than a lot of standard class fares.

 

[Ianno87]

I said that once. The selfish bas... err passenger produced a ticket, to which I told her a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat-so get it shifted. Was rather taken aback by the response "Exactly, so stand!"

As in she'd bought a second ticket and showed you both?

While there's no actual entitlement to that, I think at that point I'd decide I couldn't be bothered.

I just can't grasp why some people have such an irrational problem with somebody sitting next to them. They must be a barrel of fun.

I find it so weird when people don't look at reservations - last week I was heading to Cardiff, and sat in a seat that had a reservation from Colwyn Bay to Shrewsbury. People just saw the ticket, and ignored it.

Too much trouble (and too difficult) to scrutinise every paper ticket, and would hold up anyone trying to get through the aisle behind you.

Some people also have no idea of geography and where the train has already been!

 

[bramling]

I just can't grasp why some people have such an irrational problem with somebody sitting next to them. They must be a barrel of fun.

I can, it's entirely rational. As with most things in life, the vast majority are no problem. However end up with the wrong person in the adjacent seat and the journey can become a highly unpleasant experience, as a result of issues such as behaviour, personal hygiene or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can, it's entirely rational. As with most things in life, the vast majority are no problem. However end up with the wrong person in the adjacent seat and the journey can become a highly unpleasant experience, as a result of issues such as behaviour, personal hygiene or whatever.

In 3+2 seating the person sitting next to me will be pushing against me, this is not comfortable. 3+2 seating is not wide enough for an average adult to be contained within their seat, which is why I dislike it. It's fine (to a point) in countries like China with a wider loading gauge.

 

[shredder1]

Get rid of first class, and the railways have lost me as a long-distance passenger for good.

Edinburgh to London in first class can be done for £60. At that price it's an absolute no-brainer.

I think they`ll survive with the loss of your £60 seriously though first class is fine as long as there isnt a shortage of ordinary seats, seeing elderly people standing in second class while first class seats are empty is surely wrong and they may not have the opportunity to book in advance, a death in the family or other reasons can be difficult to plan for at times.

 

[PeterC]

In 3+2 seating the person sitting next to me will be pushing against me, this is not comfortable. 3+2 seating is not wide enough for an average adult to be contained within their seat, which is why I dislike it. It's fine (to a point) in countries like China with a wider loading gauge.

I agree about 3+2 seating and so do a lot of other people judging by the way you can get a busy train crush loaded with standees while there are still middle seats free.

I don't have a problem with somebody sat next to me generally but I do if they ignore perfectly empty seating pairs (or triplets) in order to squeeze up against me. I usually leave a bag on the seat next to me if other groups of seats are free.

 

[al78]

I said that once. The selfish bas... err passenger produced a ticket, to which I told her a ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat-so get it shifted. Was rather taken aback by the response "Exactly, so stand!"

Yes, not everything can be justified in purely monetary terms, and putting bags on seats is one of them. It is not about how much you have paid for a ticket or whether holding a ticket entitles you to a seat, it is about good manners and thought, not being a space hogger, that taking up two seats with a bag on a train with finite seating and high demand is an incredibly selfish thing to do. The danger is, if you try and use capitalism principles to justify a moral standpoint, the prime reason for the standpopint is lost, i.e. consideration and thought for other people, and you could end up with situations where selfish people wave their wallet as a justification for being selfish, rather than being encouraged to do the right thing because it is the decent thing to do.

 

[al78]

I just can't grasp why some people have such an irrational problem with

It is not completely irrational. I've had very large (obese) people sit next to me literally squashing me up against the window. Some of them seem to think that a thin person only needs an infinitesimal amount of space, so taking up half my space is fair game.

It is extremely rare I've had someone sit next to me who was genuinely unpleasant in one way or another, and because it is very unlikely I don't worry about it. Trains are public transport and part of that involves having to mingle with members of the public. If you really can't stand being next to someone else, that is what a private car or a taxi is good for.

 

[Journeyman]

I can, it's entirely rational. As with most things in life, the vast majority are no problem. However end up with the wrong person in the adjacent seat and the journey can become a highly unpleasant experience, as a result of issues such as behaviour, personal hygiene or whatever.

This is precisely why, if I can get it at a decent price, I will seek to reserve a single airline first class seat if I'm travelling a long way. No need to sit next to or opposite anyone, and I'm happy to pay a premium for that.

I'm an introvert and it doesn't take much for me to feel that my personal space has been violated.

 

[Esker-pades]

I think they`ll survive with the loss of your £60 seriously though first class is fine as long as there isnt a shortage of ordinary seats, seeing elderly people standing in second class while first class seats are empty is surely wrong and they may not have the opportunity to book in advance, a death in the family or other reasons can be difficult to plan for at times.

Abolishing first class on long distance services alienates business travelling. London to Edinburgh has intense competition from the plane. Remove the first class service, and *bang*, all your business custom has gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Abolishing first class on long distance services alienates business travelling. London to Edinburgh has intense competition from the plane. Remove the first class service, and *bang*, all your business custom has gone.

That would be true in the 1980s and 1990s. In the 2010s, most business travellers are not permitted First Class. I'm not, though I was in the past.

 

[Esker-pades]

That would be true in the 1980s and 1990s. In the 2010s, most business travellers are not permitted First Class. I'm not, though I was in the past.

By "not permitted" do you mean "the business will not pay for it"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

By "not permitted" do you mean "the business will not pay for it"?

Yes, I'm at liberty to upgrade myself if I wish (Weekend First or excess), and have done a few times - same for any flight upgrades, the business will pay for Economy but if there's an upgrade I want to pay for myself I can. This is why that VTWC fixed price upgrade scheme might do well, and I see that sort of thing as the future of 1st.

In some cases public sector workers are actually banned from travelling 1st on business because of the image they wish to portray.

 

[anme]

Abolishing first class on long distance services alienates business travelling. London to Edinburgh has intense competition from the plane. Remove the first class service, and *bang*, all your business custom has gone.

Many members of this forum have a rather inaccurate view of business travel.

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed. I am thinking of longer journeys. I was astonished at how quiet the trains often are.

That doesn't tally with my observations: For six months, I travelled daily on the 07:30 Birmingham - London Euston (the non-stop service), and 17:23 return. Both commonly ran with most or (Though admittedly not all) seats occupied. The 06:27 Manchester - London Euston via Birmingham, 08:10 departing New Street, is generally full and standing with an 11-car Pendolino between Wolverhampton and Coventry, and comfortably busy south of there. I'm not entirely sure how busy standard class gets on the 06:35 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston (arriving 08:46) as I'm usually in first class, but the impression I get is that it loads well.

On topic, I think that seat reservations perform a valuable function that makes rail travel more attractive to many prospective passengers and provides reassurance that they will have a seat on the frequently overcrowded railway. They certainly shouldn't be abolished, but I do think that operators should keep at least 25% of standard class seating capacity unreserved, preferably in a large block clearly identified on the train's exterior, rather than Transpennine Express' and Crosscountry's approach on their 4 carriage Voyagers of almost every seat on the train being reserved.

Where unreserved seats are available elsewhere in the train when the full quota of reservable seats hasn't been utilised, then I think that the train diagrams displayed on the platform information screens at the likes of London Euston that identify the level of reserved seats per carriage are a very helpful indicator and should be used more widely.

 

[PeterC]

Where unreserved seats are available elsewhere in the train when the full quota of reservable seats hasn't been utilised, then I think that the train diagrams displayed on the platform information screens at the likes of London Euston that identify the level of reserved seats per carriage are a very helpful indicator and should be used more widely.

I haven't used Euston for a long while so I don't know what they are like there. When I looked at the boards at Kings Cross a couple of months ago it wasn't at all clear if you were being show the proportion of seats booked or the proportion free.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I haven't used Euston for a long while so I don't know what they are like there. When I looked at the boards at Kings Cross a couple of months ago it wasn't at all clear if you were being show the proportion of seats booked or the proportion free.

at Euston, it's the proportion reserved, which is why an 11 car Pendolino shows no reservations in coach U

 

[Mag_seven]

Many members of this forum have a rather inaccurate view of business travel.

Feel free to tell us what the accurate view is then.

 

[anme]

Feel free to tell us what the accurate view is then.

I've posted on this subject many times in various threads.

Specifically here, I was referring to the claim that all business travellers travel in first class. That is not true. I don't have statistics to hand, but certainly the large majority of business travellers use standard class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Feel free to tell us what the accurate view is then.

That most now use Standard Advances, not First Anytimes.

Most businesses now have more frugal travel policies than a good many individuals do for their private travel. For instance I will travel First Class out of my own pocket but work will not pay for it.

 

[Journeyman]

Most businesses now have more frugal travel policies than a good many individuals do for their private travel. For instance I will travel First Class out of my own pocket but work will not pay for it.

My previous employer would allow first class if there was a valid business reason for it, and if you could get a good deal on it, so my boss had some discretion in the matter - for example, I had to travel to Peterborough, work all night and then travel home to Edinburgh in the morning, so he was happy for me to travel in first so I could get some rest.

My current employer absolutely won't budge on it - standard class only, unless you're very senior. As a result, most people here prefer flying to travelling by train to our various UK locations.

 

[Ianno87]

I've posted on this subject many times in various threads.

Specifically here, I was referring to the claim that all business travellers travel in first class. That is not true. I don't have statistics to hand, but certainly the large majority of business travellers use standard class.

Precisely. "Business Travellers" isn't top execs travelling around in first class.

If anything, it's predominantly middle-management/professional-types travelling to meetings with their laptop in tow (being a bit stereotypical).