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TRIVIA: Operators that use the 12-hour clock

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AY1975

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How many operators do you know of that use the 12-hour clock (rather than the more usual 24-hour clock) for their timetables?

Offhand the only one I know of that currently does so is TrentBarton. I'm sure there are several others, though. In fact, some operators produce an inconsistent mixture of 12- and 24-hour clock timetables.

TrentBarton prides itself in listening to what its customers want, rather than believing that the company knows best. They claim that their passengers have consistently shown preference for the 12-hour clock (IMO that's a bit like saying our passengers would rather still pay their fares in Pounds, Shillings and Pence, though!). Even the digital clocks on board TrentBarton buses are in 12-hour format.

I think Trent Buses (now TrentBarton) first changed to using the 12-hour clock at the time of bus deregulation in 1986, and has done so ever since. Before that, Trent was part of the National Bus Group (which presumably required all its operators to use the 24-hour clock).

Most other operators in Derbyshire are happy to leave timetable publicity to the County Council, which uses the 24-hour clock, but TrentBarton insists on putting up its own 12-hour clock timetables at the stops that it serves. This means that at stops served both by TrentBarton and by other operators, passengers will find a bewildering mix of 12- and 24-hour clock timetables.

I seem to recall that Nottingham City Transport used to be 12-hour until about the early 2000s, but then saw the light and changed to 24-hour. Also, until about that time Merseytravel PTE (unlike all other PTEs) used 12-hour for both bus and rail timetables (and for rail services this meant going against the nationally agreed standard, so Merseyrail produced its own timetables in 24-hour clock).

I also remember that in Cumbria in the early 2000s some bus stops had 12-hour and some had 24-hour timetables.
 
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Busaholic

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TrentBarton are rather like those greengrocers who used to insist on still pricing everything in pounds and ounces, often so they could get the free publicity when their local council intervened, and quote Magna Carta in their defence. Very boring for the rest of us. The 24 hour clock offers no opportunity for confusion about a.m. and p.m. times and, as such, should be used by every public transport operator. What next, an operator who only recognises Greenwich Mean Time?! Barry Doe, in his columns in bus and train magazines over decades now, used to rail against the 12 hour clockists, and was the person most successful in getting virtually all in the transport industry in the UK to adopt a common standard. Shame on TB!
 

Hophead

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Not forgetting Transport for London.... The bus stop summaries show columns such as "7pm to 9pm".

Brighton & Hove's "Bus Times" publication helpfully translates other companies services into 12-hour as well (so the book is at least consistent throughout). Sister company Metrobus, meanwhile, use 24-hour in what looks, to me, like a fairly traditional London style, in that hours are in bold, (so far as I remember from 30-odd years ago).
 

radamfi

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Barry Doe, in his columns in bus and train magazines over decades now, used to rail against the 12 hour clockists, and was the person most successful in getting virtually all in the transport industry in the UK to adopt a common standard. Shame on TB!

He still does a list of best timetables and any timetable in the 12 hour clock is automatically disqualified. Brighton and Hove would probably win if they didn't persevere with the 12 hour clock. So the prize usually goes to Metrobus.
 

dazzler

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East Yorkshire Motor Services (EYMS) based in, well, East Yorkshire, still use the 12 hour clock. If I remember correctly, they are the only operator around York to do so.

As well as East Yorkshire and Kingston upon 'Ull, EYMS also serve York, as well as Scarborough and the Vale of Pickering through their Scarborough and District subsidiary.
 

Andyh82

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He still does a list of best timetables and any timetable in the 12 hour clock is automatically disqualified. Brighton and Hove would probably win if they didn't persevere with the 12 hour clock. So the prize usually goes to Metrobus.

A very stubborn view in my opinion

He refuses to even recognise any publicity published in the 12 hour clock however good it may be

Meanwhile whilst he continues on this crusade many bus companies and councils are stopping publicity altogether.
 

Busaholic

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A very stubborn view in my opinion

He refuses to even recognise any publicity published in the 12 hour clock however good it may be

Meanwhile whilst he continues on this crusade many bus companies and councils are stopping publicity altogether.
But that last sentence isn't a consequence of his refusal, is it? I can see why he maintains that position, even though I wouldn't personally be so draconian.
 

Robertj21a

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But that last sentence isn't a consequence of his refusal, is it? I can see why he maintains that position, even though I wouldn't personally be so draconian.

It's just a silly approach from him. The likes of Brighton & Hove do it in response to the wishes of their customers, a point that Doe won't accept. There is no such need in the Metrobus area - which has the same management as Brighton.
 

Deerfold

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It's just a silly approach from him. The likes of Brighton & Hove do it in response to the wishes of their customers, a point that Doe won't accept. There is no such need in the Metrobus area - which has the same management as Brighton.

Do they? Is there really a huge demand for this?
 

ag51ruk

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I have no problem with 24 hour clock, but look at the companies mentioned above that use the 12 hour clock - Trent Barton, Brighton & Hove, Reading, all widely regarded as some of the best operators in the UK.

If their timetables are so difficult to understand, you would expect the buses to run empty and enough people to complain that they would change their policy
 

Busaholic

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I have no problem with 24 hour clock, but look at the companies mentioned above that use the 12 hour clock - Trent Barton, Brighton & Hove, Reading, all widely regarded as some of the best operators in the UK.

If their timetables are so difficult to understand, you would expect the buses to run empty and enough people to complain that they would change their policy
How would you feel about some TOCs changing to a 12 hour clock, then?
 

ag51ruk

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How would you feel about some TOCs changing to a 12 hour clock, then?

It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as they indicate mornings and afternoons - I can cope with both.

I sometimes think that people look for things to complain about when there are so many real problems in the world
 

Busaholic

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It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as they indicate mornings and afternoons - I can cope with both.

I sometimes think that people look for things to complain about when there are so many real problems in the world
It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as they indicate mornings and afternoons - I can cope with both.

I sometimes think that people look for things to complain about when there are so many real problems in the world
Personally, I think we should return to local time, then a train leaving Paddington can reach Bristol before it's departure time. Eyes roll emoji.
 

Deerfold

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Personally, I think we should return to local time, then a train leaving Paddington can reach Bristol before it's departure time. Eyes roll emoji.

I'm not sure they quite reach those speeds! Unless you're suggesting Bristol is 20 years behind London? <D
 

jon0844

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Do they? Is there really a huge demand for this?

I can't believe people are actually demanding anything regarding how timetables are shown. Any more than people cared that much about the EU before the referendum.

I can only assume they were asked a question that associated the 24 hour clock as being the work of the devil or something.
 

ian1944

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As someone who is highly numerate in general, I've always had a strange problem with the like of 14.35, in that the 4 dominates my perception and instantly suggests 4 o'clock. Yes, subtracting 12 is trivial but the instant initial impression has to be overcome. Imagine my trouble with ferry times to/from France, with a different time zone.

24-hour times should make calculating durations easier, e.g. 11.35 to 21.25 is obviously 9h 50m, but I find it best to translate into am/pm so in effect calculate (12.00 - 11.35) + (21.25 - 12.00) = 0.25 + 9.25, with spot times on the LHS and durations on the RHS.

Off-topic, we all develop an approach to everyday arithmetic which works for us, but maybe not for everyone. For example, my technique for subtraction avoids working from R to L and sometimes borrowing/transferring value from the next position left. Work entirely from L to R, so that 9718 - 2836 would be treated as 7000 - 100 - 20 + 2, easily seen to be 6882. With practice, it can be done mentally, with successive values being 7000, 6900, 6880, 6882.
 

AY1975

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I can't believe people are actually demanding anything regarding how timetables are shown. Any more than people cared that much about the EU before the referendum.

I can only assume they were asked a question that associated the 24 hour clock as being the work of the devil or something.

Precisely, one wonders whether passengers on 12-hour clock operators approached the company of their own accord and told them they preferred 12-hour, or the operators chose to ask them which they preferred - if they hadn't been asked, most passengers probably wouldn't have given a damn either way as long as the timetables were presented in a format that was easy enough to understand.
 

AY1975

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Precisely, one wonders whether passengers on 12-hour clock operators approached the company of their own accord and told them they preferred 12-hour, or the operators chose to ask them which they preferred - if they hadn't been asked, most passengers probably wouldn't have given a damn either way as long as the timetables were presented in a format that was easy enough to understand.
As someone who is highly numerate in general, I've always had a strange problem with the like of 14.35, in that the 4 dominates my perception and instantly suggests 4 o'clock. Yes, subtracting 12 is trivial but the instant initial impression has to be overcome. Imagine my trouble with ferry times to/from France, with a different time zone.

24-hour times should make calculating durations easier, e.g. 11.35 to 21.25 is obviously 9h 50m, but I find it best to translate into am/pm so in effect calculate (12.00 - 11.35) + (21.25 - 12.00) = 0.25 + 9.25, with spot times on the LHS and durations on the RHS.

Off-topic, we all develop an approach to everyday arithmetic which works for us, but maybe not for everyone. For example, my technique for subtraction avoids working from R to L and sometimes borrowing/transferring value from the next position left. Work entirely from L to R, so that 9718 - 2836 would be treated as 7000 - 100 - 20 + 2, easily seen to be 6882. With practice, it can be done mentally, with successive values being 7000, 6900, 6880, 6882.

Yes, I'm sure there are people who aren't used to the 24-hour clock, and who perceive 14.00 as being 4pm, 17.00 as 7pm, etc. But for people like me who are used to the 24-hour clock (as I suspect most people in mainland Europe probably are) it becomes instinctive.

Surely the best solution to that problem is for all operators to display a dial showing the 24-hour clock in their timetable leaflets and on the timetable sheets at stops, as some operators do anyway.
 

AY1975

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Not forgetting Transport for London.... The bus stop summaries show columns such as "7pm to 9pm".

Yes, and the digital information displays on board London buses (which also show the name of the next stop, and "Bus stopping" if someone has pressed the bell) show the time in 12-hour clock even though TfL timetables are in 24-hour clock (albeit with the "7pm to 9pm" column headings on the departure summaries at bus stops).
 

Deerfold

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Yes, and the digital information displays on board London buses (which also show the name of the next stop, and "Bus stopping" if someone has pressed the bell) show the time in 12-hour clock even though TfL timetables are in 24-hour clock (albeit with the "7pm to 9pm" column headings on the departure summaries at bus stops).

I did query that when the project was in progress. I was told more people were comfortable with the 12 hour clock.
 

CM

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If people can't tell the difference between 12 O'clock in the Afternoon and 12 O'clock Midnight then they need to go back to School to learn how to tell the time. The difference between each time is pretty obvious.
 

Smethwickian

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I work in customer services for a transport operator which has published all timetables in 24hr format for more than 40 years. Yet rarely a day goes by that someone does not call needing a ticket amended because they booked, for example, 0130 instead of 1.30pm...
 

Busaholic

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I don't care if a time is given as (eg) 7.30 pm or 19.30 but I do object to the use of 19.30 pm which I've noticed several times recently.
I've never seen that but my teeth go into full grate mode when I hear a news reporter say 'at 6 a.m. in the morning'. I then find it hard to accept anything else they have to say when they display such wilful ignorance. Mind you, Chief Constables (in particular) and even Cabinet Ministers are prone to this, but then I usually take their utterances with a pinch of salt.
 
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