DLR and Overground Extensions to Thamesmead

[DynamicSpirit]

853 London are reporting that TfL have presented a map to Greenwich council showing current thinking of how DLR and Overground extensions might look. It shows possible DLR routes from Beckton through Thamesmead and to either Abbey Wood or Belvedere, and an overground extension from Barking Riverside with a station at Thamesmead Central and then running either to Abbey Wood or to Plumstead or to Belvedere.

Still quite speculative as these are clearly just very early investigations with no firm funding in place, but they do appear to show that TfL is still seriously looking into extending both the overground and the DLR.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Bexley Council’s favoured option, I believe, is for the DLR to go to Belvedere (suggesting Yarnton Way) and for London Overground to go to Abbey Wood.

 

[edwin_m]

If they are serious about that, why build Barking Riverside on a viaduct when it would have to be moved underground for a river crossing? At least at Island Gardens they had the excuse that most of the viaduct was there already.

 

[mr_jrt]

Surely the sensible thing to do is have the DLR and Overground extensions (to Dagenham Dock and Thamesmead, respectively) interchanging at Barking Riverside - that way you're only paying for one river crossing? ...and terminating the LO tracks at a dead-end station at Abbey Wood seems very wasteful...either of the other options would be better for the network as a whole, you would think, unless there was a plan for further extension beyond there. Abbey Wood already has Crossrail, after all.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Surely the sensible thing to do is have the DLR and Overground extensions (to Dagenham Dock and Thamesmead, respectively) interchanging at Barking Riverside - that way you're only paying for one river crossing?

I think the problem with that idea is that the Overground is limited to 4tph because of clashes with freight further up the line. So you'd end up with - by London standards - a pretty mediocre train service for Thamesmead. (Though maybe you could run more trains as shuttles that terminate at Barking?). Also, being heavy-rail, it's not really suited to the close-together stations of the DLR, so would only have one station in Thamesmead. Since Thamesmead is pretty big, the one station isn't going to serve the entire town very well.

...and terminating the LO tracks at a dead-end station at Abbey Wood seems very wasteful...either of the other options would be better for the network as a whole, you would think, unless there was a plan for further extension beyond there. Abbey Wood already has Crossrail, after all.

True, but then it's not really for the benefit of Abbey Wood. It's for the benefit of Thamesmead residents, and I suspect they'd quite like any new line to go to somewhere that gives easy interchange onto Crossrail

To be honest, much as I would love the Overground to cross the river: Looking at the map TfL have put out, I'd expect the DLR to get the go-ahead and the Overground to stall. The proposed DLR route mostly runs along very wide dual carriageways with plenty of room to build elevated tracks and stations, and can give a very frequent service serving most of Thamesmead. By contrast, barring a LOT of property demolition, the overground route on that map would have to be mainly underground, as would the proposed Thamesmead Central station and (if it went to Abbey Wood) the Overground platforms there. *Very* expensive for much less benefit.

 

[PeterC]

Where's the money?

 

[swt_passenger]

If they are serious about that, why build Barking Riverside on a viaduct when it would have to be moved underground for a river crossing? At least at Island Gardens they had the excuse that most of the viaduct was there already.

I thought TfL had adequately explained why they weren’t building an underground station. It just isn’t affordable as part of the deal struck with the Barking Riverside developers. It’s all discussed in the earlier Barking Riverside thread, but wasn’t there an inspectors report as well? I don’t think the necessary gradient between a flyover at Ripple Lane and the required depth under the river bed lends itself to a station anyway, but if someone knows otherwise feel free to explain...

 

[edwin_m]

I thought TfL had adequately explained why they weren’t building an underground station. It just isn’t affordable as part of the deal struck with the Barking Riverside developers. It’s all discussed in the earlier Barking Riverside thread, but wasn’t there an inspectors report as well? I don’t think the necessary gradient between a flyover at Ripple Lane and the required depth under the river bed lends itself to a station anyway, but if someone knows otherwise feel free to explain...

In that case how do they plan to extend it across the river as suggested by the map? That would surely result in a long period of major work next to the new development, along with a suspension of rail service. A bridge on that part of the river would have to be very high or moveable as some quite large ships use it.

 

[swt_passenger]

In that case how do they plan to extend it across the river as suggested by the map? That would surely result in a long period of major work next to the new development, along with a suspension of rail service.

I don’t know. Just saying it isn’t a sudden new issue, we’ve already got three years of discussion about it which never came to a conclusion...

 

[Bald Rick]

In that case how do they plan to extend it across the river as suggested by the map? That would surely result in a long period of major work next to the new development, along with a suspension of rail service. A bridge on that part of the river would have to be very high or moveable as some quite large ships use it.

‘They’ don’t. It’s lines on a map, that is all, by the TfL crayons department. I’d be very surprised if there was any engineering input.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought TfL had adequately explained why they weren’t building an underground station. It just isn’t affordable as part of the deal struck with the Barking Riverside developers. It’s all discussed in the earlier Barking Riverside thread, but wasn’t there an inspectors report as well?

There was an inspectors report, and it explained perfectly well why an underground station wasn’t being built. Although that didn’t satisfy the individual who objected to the scheme for that reason alone. (Which, incidentally, delayed the hearing and thus the project).

 

[swt_passenger]

Have just re skimmed the report and the inspector does say that TfL had convinced him that the viaduct station doesn’t actually prevent future alterations.

Does seem at a quick read that “Mr Ridley” is about the only objector ever mentioned...

 

[ijmad]

Something consider with DLR extensions is that there's very little free capacity in to the centre of London -- Bank + Tower are already hitting 30tph in the peaks between Shadwell and Westferry. Perhaps 32tph or 36tph is possible? I don't know.

If there's a Thamesmead DLR extension, how many trains are they going to get over the river, and how will they be routed?

Currently there's a 7.5tph peak service Tower Hill to Beckton - splitting this in half for Beckton and a hypothetical branch over the river doesn't feel like a good ROI for the cost of the crossing. So will Beckon station close in favour of Thamesmead to the east? Perhaps more trains could be sent to Stratford International?

The more pertinent question is where these customers would want to go. I suppose the Elizabeth Line interchange at Customs House will be very attractive for a lot of them so maybe the system could indeed cope with 15tph or more in this area given a whole lot will get off for interchange there.

I'm sure there will be lots of studies about passenger flows...

 

[Clip]

Currently there's a 7.5tph peak service Tower Hill to Beckton - splitting this in half for Beckton and a hypothetical branch over the river doesn't feel like a good ROI for the cost of the crossing. So will Beckon station close in favour of Thamesmead to the east? Perhaps more trains could be sent to Stratford International?

From the looks of it they would route the Thamesmead ones round the back of the depot and past the shopping centre so no real need for Beckton itself to close - its how they would redesign Galleons Reach which interests me because thats all new from a few years back when they would just go over the river from there

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Something consider with DLR extensions is that there's very little free capacity in to the centre of London -- Bank + Tower are already hitting 30tph in the peaks between Shadwell and Westferry. Perhaps 32tph or 36tph is possible? I don't know.

If there's a Thamesmead DLR extension, how many trains are they going to get over the river, and how will they be routed?

Those are realistic concerns.

Would there be enough capacity to do something like run new trains from Thamesmead to Canary Wharf and terminate there?

I do notice that the TfL's map that I linked to in the first post of this thread appears to show a new line heading North from Gallions Reach station. This would appear to imply a new route to Barking as well. So possibly they are thinking of running the trains Barking-Thamesmead-etc. with a reversal at Gallions Reach? (Or maybe there's some other way of interpreting the map though I can't offhand think of any).

 

[Clip]

You wont be able to do anything like reversing at Galleons reach - the platforms and curve aswell as the entrance to the depot get in the way of the majority of things there - hence the run around via the shopping centre

 

[ijmad]

From the looks of it they would route the Thamesmead ones round the back of the depot and past the shopping centre so no real need for Beckton itself to close - its how they would redesign Galleons Reach which interests me because thats all new from a few years back when they would just go over the river from there

Sure, there's no need to close Beckton from an infrastructure point of view - but it's a pretty wasteful to send half your train service there when you have a lot of customers in Thamesmead now needing them.

I figure DLR made something of a mistake with Beckton, at least one in hindsight. I mean, they couldn't have predicted the subsequent success of the DLR, but looping back towards the west between Gallions Reach and Beckton really limits any future extension from that station onwards, it's a total dead end.

 

[ijmad]

Those are realistic concerns.

Would there be enough capacity to do something like run new trains from Thamesmead to Canary Wharf and terminate there?

Interestingly, that is possible without getting in the way of other services. Stratford International isn't a bad destination either though, you already get Crossrail at Customs House, but Canning Town gets you the Jubilee and West Ham gets you the District Line. Customers wanting Canary Wharf would surely change at Customs House even if their DLR trains went there.

 

[Clip]

Sure, there's no need to close Beckton from an infrastructure point of view - but it's a pretty wasteful to send half your train service there when you have a lot of customers in Thamesmead now needing them.

I figure DLR made something of a mistake with Beckton, at least one in hindsight. I mean, they couldn't have predicted the subsequent success of the DLR, but looping back towards the west between Gallions Reach and Beckton really limits any future extension from that station onwards, it's a total dead end.

But Beckton has a lot of people using it - the only other option is the bus from there to Canning town and its quicker than the bus so why get rid of it?

 

[edwin_m]

I figure DLR made something of a mistake with Beckton, at least one in hindsight. I mean, they couldn't have predicted the subsequent success of the DLR, but looping back towards the west between Gallions Reach and Beckton really limits any future extension from that station onwards, it's a total dead end.

Might have been better to use the gas works railway alignment which diverged off the line actually used near Prince Regent and arrived at Beckton facing east? Although that would have served (but disrupted) existing housing rather than new development opportunities at the dockside.

Looking again at the OP's map in the light of later comments, the Beckton branch is indeed the almost invisible little stub falling of the left hand side, and a conspiracy theorist would suggest the map boundary has been chosen to make this as inconspicuous as possible. It does appear to be preparing the ground for a route up Barking Creek to, presumably, Barking. I can't see it justifying a route to both Beckton and Barking as well as Thamesmead, so I would guess they would re-jig the service initially to serve Beckton and Thamesmead then close Beckton if they got a line to Barking. The Barking line shows a stop on the Royal Docks Road, which serves industrial/retail areas either side but seems less good for Beckton than the existing terminus which appears to be right in the centre of the community.

 

[ijmad]

Might have been better to use the gas works railway alignment which diverged off the line actually used near Prince Regent and arrived at Beckton facing east? Although that would have served (but disrupted) existing housing rather than new development opportunities at the dockside.

It still exists as the Beckton Corridor nature walk, and is straight as a die all the way to Beckton. Just a few roads cross it. Seems like it could easily be brought back as a railway line, but I suspect there'd be a lot of local opposition to doing so -- it'd pass behind quite a few people's back gardens and cut a rather nice public park in half.

Maybe we'll get a new Beckton station a little north of Gallions Reach on either the branch to Thamesmead or to Barking or both before they diverge, at the very best though it'd be around 3/4 of a mile from where Beckon DLR currently is.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Realistically with Beckton being some half a mile from Cyprus (and a 9 minute walk), what of simply offering a frequent bus on an East Ham > Beckton > Cyprus axis?

That way the DLR can curve round on the Depot alignment and share a bridge with a road (the roundabouts etc exist ready for it) and then run through Thamesmead to Belvedere and Erith?

 

[ijmad]

Realistically with Beckton being some half a mile from Cyprus (and a 9 minute walk), what of simply offering a frequent bus on an East Ham > Beckton > Cyprus axis?

Beckton attracted 2.569 million passengers last year which is around 54 full double deckers per day.

That may not sound like much but consider a high percentage of that number will be between 07:30 and 09:00.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Beckton attracted 2.569 million passengers last year which is around 54 full double deckers per day.

That may not sound like much but consider a high percentage of that number will be between 07:30 and 09:00.

Yes but my question in all of these instances include:
- “How many of those people can walk to equally suitable alternatives”
- “Is this station on a different route, whereby people travel to it when they could use other routes and re-distribute themselves”
And a few others

But those two are key:
- 9 minute walk to Cyprus from the existing station.
- Many people could walk to other stations as well.
- Natural re-distribution of people to other stations and modes including East Ham.

The reality is 54 double deckers per day, where we assume that say 27 double deckers are purely between 0600 and 0900, is not a lot. If some will walk to Cyprus or Gallions Reach and the rest can use buses to other places (unless of course you simply add a route from Beckton or even make it a Guided Busway for an existing route), you have to consider for the sake of this small number of people you can open up vast new markets south of the river.

 

[jopsuk]

Proper fantasy for the Overground would be to extend it through Bexleyheath and Sidcup and all the way down to a terminus at Orpington, via the Cray Valley, creating an orbital route through south east London

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes but my question in all of these instances include:
- “How many of those people can walk to equally suitable alternatives”
- “Is this station on a different route, whereby people travel to it when they could use other routes and re-distribute themselves”
And a few others

But those two are key:
- 9 minute walk to Cyprus from the existing station.
- Many people could walk to other stations as well.
- Natural re-distribution of people to other stations and modes including East Ham.

I'd be a bit wary there. Sure, Beckton isn't too far to walk to Cyprus. However, people who use Beckton presumably do so because that's the most convenient station overall - so they would be inconvenienced to at least some extent by closing the station.

Getting the DLR at Beckton instead of Cyprus does imply some journey time penalty as the trains travel around the loop. From that we could surmise that most people who live South of Beckton station and so are less than 9 minutes walk from Cyprus would probably already be more inclined to use Cyprus to get the shorter journeys. That would suggest that most people who use Beckton probably live North of the station, and so are not within reasonable walking distance of Cyprus.

There will also be people arriving by bus and swapping to the DLR. I'm less sure how those would be affected, but having a quick look at the TfL bus maps, it looks like most buses that serve Beckton do also serve either Cyprus or Gallions Reach. But obviously over 2 million people nontheless prefer to use Beckton. East Ham seems a bit far away to be a realistic alternative.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Interestingly, that is possible without getting in the way of other services. Stratford International isn't a bad destination either though, you already get Crossrail at Customs House, but Canning Town gets you the Jubilee and West Ham gets you the District Line. Customers wanting Canary Wharf would surely change at Customs House even if their DLR trains went there.

Yes, Stratford would make quite a good destination for any Thamesmead trains. That would boost frequencies on both the Beckton and Stratford branches and have the added benefit of making it easier for people to transfer between Stratford Main and International. And, as you say, it would avoid duplicating Crossrail southern branch connections. All without needing to build any extra infrastructure.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Proper fantasy for the Overground would be to extend it through Bexleyheath and Sidcup and all the way down to a terminus at Orpington, via the Cray Valley, creating an orbital route through south east London

That’s not even a fantasy. That’s just weird.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes, Stratford would make quite a good destination for any Thamesmead trains. That would boost frequencies on both the Beckton and Stratford branches and have the added benefit of making it easier for people to transfer between Stratford Main and International. And, as you say, it would avoid duplicating Crossrail southern branch connections. All without needing to build any extra infrastructure.

I think Stratford is realistically the only destination from Thamesmead (and maybe Belvedere) as the City will probably be quicker via other methods including Crossrail. New connectivity to the East is surely the way to go.

 

[ijmad]

I think Stratford is realistically the only destination from Thamesmead (and maybe Belvedere) as the City will probably be quicker via other methods including Crossrail. New connectivity to the East is surely the way to go.

Also with the DLR, the further you get out of the centre the less attractive it becomes to use all the way in to the centre, as it's comparatively slow compared to the tube and certainly the Elizabeth Line. Beckton to Tower Gateway is already 30 minutes. Thamesmead to Tower Gateway will be 45 minutes or more. Better for the DLR to act as local connectivity and a feeder to faster transit in these outlying areas -- the routes themselves don't need to take you all the way in.