Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[The Ham]

You and others keep saying this though and we keep asking how and where yet you and others have not come up with one credible plan to increase the capacity apart from empty words - its basically going round in circles this thread now and its rather sad that after so many pages of posterss trying to put up a defence for scrapping it not one person has coem up with a decent idea instead of it.

Yet NR spending on enhancements have been going up year on year since 2009 (including the last three years when spending by HS2 has been increasing too) so it currently looks like HS2 AND improvements to the existing network.

 

[Clip]

Nice graph - puts paid to the idea that all money for the railway is only being spent on HS2 - then again that has been mentioned many times - I struggle to understand why some people dont get that yet but it is what it is.

 

[The Ham]

Nice graph - puts paid to the idea that all money for the railway is only being spent on HS2 - then again that has been mentioned many times - I struggle to understand why some people dont get that yet but it is what it is.

It's not my graph is from the NR accounts.

 

[EM2]

I make the enhancements figure in that graph a bit under half of the HS2 budget at £26bn. Bearing in mind what that's paid for since 2009, what capacity improvements do HS2-antis think twice as much will pay for and how much capacity will be released?

 

[Clip]

It's not my graph is from the NR accounts.

i know

 

[Jozhua]

To be honest I'm pro-HS2. The UK has had major investment in it's road networks that the Railways haven't seen for decades, such as motorways, dual carriageways, etc...

A large trunk route that can take the pressure off the existing network will allow for far more train paths, less delays and help draw people's attention back to the railways in a way that we won't have seen for years! I think phase 2 is one of the most important sections of HS2, as it will connect a far larger number of cities to the network, and provide fast connections between them as well as to London. I'm also just glad money is being spent on anything north of the M25....

 

[John Beddow]

I grew up in Saddleworth near the 3 stanedge tunnels, each around 3 miles long, soon after the canal tunnel was finished it became obsolete due to steam trains and a bigger rail tunnel being created. Then this tunnel also became obsolete due to a larger tunnel being required for diesel engine trains.

I cant afford the fares on current trains, I dread to think what HS2 tickets will cost. And with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker. Business people stopped using Concorde because it became obsolete after 911, you can do face to face with ease via computer, HS2 is obsolete before it even starts.

 

[pt_mad]

To be honest I'm pro-HS2. The UK has had major investment in it's road networks that the Railways haven't seen for decades, such as motorways, dual carriageways, etc...

A large trunk route that can take the pressure off the existing network will allow for far more train paths, less delays and help draw people's attention back to the railways in a way that we won't have seen for years! I think phase 2 is one of the most important sections of HS2, as it will connect a far larger number of cities to the network, and provide fast connections between them as well as to London. I'm also just glad money is being spent on anything north of the M25....

Great post put it excellently .

 

[civ-eng-jim]

I cant afford the fares on current trains, I dread to think what HS2 tickets will cost. And with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker.

Where can I buy one of these self-driving electric hydrogen fuel cell cars? How fast do they go? How much do they cost to run? Can they jump through queued traffic?

If you can answer all of the above, I'll tell you the price of a standard class HS2 ticket for the 07:13 departure from Leeds to London Euston January 5th 2032

 

[pt_mad]

Where can I buy one of these self-driving electric hydrogen fuel cell cars? How fast do they go? How much do they cost to run? Can they jump through queued traffic?

If you can answer all of the above, I'll tell you the price of a standard class HS2 ticket for the 07:13 departure from Leeds to London Euston January 5th 2032

Aye HS2 should be running in 2026, not sure driverless taxis will be...

 

[EM2]

Business people stopped using Concorde because it became obsolete after 911, you can do face to face with ease via computer, HS2 is obsolete before it even starts.

Concordes weren't technically obsolete. Airbus stopped producing spares, and there wasn't enough space for substantial interior upgrades (e.g. reclining seats). They were still by far the fastest passenger aircraft. Bear in mind that the first proving flight after the Paris crash was on September 11th.

 

[Jozhua]

you can do face to face with ease via computer

If you can do face to face with ease via computer, then why do millions of commuters cram themselves onto trains, buses and into cars on a daily basis in order to get to work?

Plus concorde didn't free up extra slots for more planes at each airport, which HS2 will...speed isn't the only objective, it's more a secondary bonus to boosting capacity...
If you only look at the speed increases, HS2 doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but when you look at the bigger picture, such as station expanses, reducing congestion on some of the UK's busiest routes and bringing the ability to run longer, more modern trains with a wider loading gauge it starts to make a lot more sense. (Some of the proposals for rolling stock include double deck trains, such as France's TGV Duplex, which looks rather intriguing!)

 

[6Gman]

I grew up in Saddleworth near the 3 stanedge tunnels, each around 3 miles long, soon after the canal tunnel was finished it became obsolete due to steam trains and a bigger rail tunnel being created. Then this tunnel also became obsolete due to a larger tunnel being required for diesel engine trains.

The "new" Standedge Rail Tunnel was opened in 1894, a bit early for it to have been "a larger tunnel being required for diesel engine trains" !

It was required because the original tunnels (2 single bore tunnels) were inadequate for the traffic operating.

Bit like today, when the southern WCML is becoming inadequate for the traffic operating.

 

[6Gman]

And with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker.

Where are all these "self driving" cars going to park when they head into London?

A Pendolino can take me to London at an average speed of 105mph. Even allowing for the time it takes me to drive to my local station it's still around 80mph.

Is this self driving car going to average even 80mph?

 

[6Gman]

I cant afford the fares on current trains, I dread to think what HS2 tickets will cost. And with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker. .

The Hyundai ix35 hydrogen fuel cell car costs £50,000 +

Think I'll stick with the train.

 

[Ianno87]

Business people stopped using Concorde because it became obsolete after 911, you can do face to face with ease via computer, HS2 is obsolete before it even starts.

People really, really haven't stopped flying across the Atlantic over the last 15 years (and Concorde only ever represented a tiny proportion of the Business market - the very highest end at that), and was always something of a loss* leader/marketimg tool to BA rather than being particularly profitable in its own right. The effect of 9/11 hit the whole aviation industry hard, and Concorde's re-launch timing was unfortunate in this respect.

*Actually turned around to making a small.profit in the mid-80s.

 

[The Ham]

I grew up in Saddleworth near the 3 stanedge tunnels, each around 3 miles long, soon after the canal tunnel was finished it became obsolete due to steam trains and a bigger rail tunnel being created. Then this tunnel also became obsolete due to a larger tunnel being required for diesel engine trains.

I cant afford the fares on current trains, I dread to think what HS2 tickets will cost. And with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker. Business people stopped using Concorde because it became obsolete after 911, you can do face to face with ease via computer, HS2 is obsolete before it even starts.

Given that 1 train driver and 1 guard can operate a train with up to 1,100 seated passengers compared to the same staff for up to 600 seated passengers, I would have thought that the costs of running the trains would be less.

The fact that those staff can operate about 4 return trips between London and Manchester in about the same time as 2 return trips, would further reduce costs.

Likewise you would require less trains to run the same level of services, further reducing costs.

Even if those traveling between the North West or the West Midlands and London (currently circa 24.5 million people/year) had to cover the cost of construction (with others, such as from Scotland, covering maintenance) over a 60 year design life it would cost £38 each (so a return of £76). Which isn't that far above the current £50 supper off peak tickets for London to Birmingham return, or that much lower than the £96 off peak return between London and Manchester.

That however doesn't allow for staff or train running (bus does cover the purchase of the trains), nor does it reduce the cost for Birmingham and increase it for Manchester or if people opt to go a different route. However conversely it doesn't allow for any future growth in rail passenger numbers or for passengers traveling between Manchester and Birmingham or any of the other cities/regions due to be served by HS2.

Anyway that long answer is just to say, there's probably nothing significant which would make the train tickets be that much different than they currently are. Unless someone can think of something.

 

[Lucan]

I cant afford the fares on current trains, ... with the introduction of self driving electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which take you from door to door with ease and less cost, and would also be quicker.

First ever post on this forum and rubbishes trains straight off the mark - never uses one and claims that [non-existent] self-driving hydrogen cars are better. Looks like trolling with flamebait to me.

 

[Jozhua]

First ever post on this forum and rubbishes trains straight off the mark - never uses one and claims that [non-existent] self-driving hydrogen cars are better. Looks like trolling with flamebait to me.

Agreed, looking in more detail on the subject of self driving cars, they are typically raised *along with the hyper-loop and boring company tunnels* as a reason not to invest in large public transport infrastructure projects, such as Crossrail and HS2...

Self driving cars are as of yet unproven technology and do not solve the fundamental issues related to cars as a means of transport. Density, cost, pollution and parking. In regards to Hyperloop and Boring Company, when brought into reality these projects would face the same cost barriers as HS2. I'm sure if there was a magical way to reduce costs associated with construction that the government would be more than happy to implement it!

(Sorry if this was a tad off topic - just wanted to raise the point as I've seen it around the forum/news in general.)

 

[Carlisle]

If you only look at the speed increases, HS2 doesn't make any sense whatsoever,

Which is why it would have been preferable to have conducted a detailed and transparent public enquiry into the costs and timescale of possible alternatives, as the impression many have is the present scheme has been pushed through using some misleading information without sufficient scrutiny

 

[Ianno87]

Which is why it would have been preferable to have conducted a detailed and transparent public enquiry into the costs and timescale of possible alternatives, as the impression many have is the present scheme has been pushed through using some misleading information without sufficient scrutiny

Why is going to level of Public Inquiry necessary? Strategic Alternative studies have been done (and are in the public demain), plus the Network Rail New Lines study (2009) that looked high-level at different approaches to new lines and reasoned that high speed was best.

What more really needs to be done that would be an effective use of public funds?

 

[The Ham]

Why is going to level of Public Inquiry necessary? Strategic Alternative studies have been done (and are in the public demain), plus the Network Rail New Lines study (2009) that looked high-level at different approaches to new lines and reasoned that high speed was best.

What more really needs to be done that would be an effective use of public funds?

Quite I've seen people say "only £1 million was spent on looking at alternatives" and at other times complain about the amount of money being spent on consultants on the project.

 

[underbank]

(and Concorde only ever represented a tiny proportion of the Business market - the very highest end at that)

That's how it ended up, but it wasn't what was planned. There should have been hundreds of concords flying everywhere. It was never the intention that there'd only be a handful doing London/Paris to New York. There were dozens of pre-orders for them from airlines across the globe. There were two reasons it ended up as a novelty for rich businessmen and celebrities. Firstly, the 747 Jumbo Jet was launched and secondly, it's sonic boom which meant it was banned from flying over land in many countries. It was designed and launched as a plane for the "normal" person, not the richest! See any parallels with what may happen with HS2? That's why another poster has drawn comparisons.

 

[underbank]

Why is going to level of Public Inquiry necessary? Strategic Alternative studies have been done

I'm sure that the same was said of the Beeching Report, but look how history has proved those times to be so very wrong.

 

[squizzler]

That's how it ended up, but it wasn't what was planned. There should have been hundreds of concords flying everywhere. It was never the intention that there'd only be a handful doing London/Paris to New York. There were dozens of pre-orders for them from airlines across the globe. There were two reasons it ended up as a novelty for rich businessmen and celebrities. Firstly, the 747 Jumbo Jet was launched and secondly, it's sonic boom which meant it was banned from flying over land in many countries. It was designed and launched as a plane for the "normal" person, not the richest! See any parallels with what may happen with HS2? That's why another poster has drawn comparisons.

In your analogy, High Speed Rail would be the Jumbo Jet using proven technology to provide capacity for everyone. Concorde and the huge money sink of its development might eventually be proven a good metaphor for unproven (and unwanted) technology like Hyperloop and driverless cars.

 

[underbank]

In your analogy, High Speed Rail would be the Jumbo Jet using proven technology to provide capacity for everyone. Concorde and the huge money sink of its development might eventually be proven a good metaphor for unproven (and unwanted) technology like Hyperloop and driverless cars.

Or it could be that 250mph trains will be like concord in that they're too expensive for "normal" people to use and most people are happy with travel speeds as they are today. And that the lumbering slow Jumbo is traditional rail at lower cost and lower speed that most people can afford and are happy with! Only time will tell.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm sure that the same was said of the Beeching Report, but look how history has proved those times to be so very wrong.

Quite, and so the Strategic Alternatives could prove to be an equal level of 'mistake' to Beeching if they were progressed.

 

[The Ham]

Or it could be that 250mph trains will be like concord in that they're too expensive for "normal" people to use and most people are happy with travel speeds as they are today. And that the lumbering slow Jumbo is traditional rail at lower cost and lower speed that most people can afford and are happy with! Only time will tell.

Only problem with that thinking is that the HS2 trains will have 1,100 seats (maybe 1,500 if double decker trains are used) whilst the existing trains would have 600 seats. As such the trains with the largest capacity would be the faster trains. Which is the opposite of Concorde/747's.

It could be that HS2 buys 200/225mph trains rather than 250mph trains if that provides then with a cost saving on the rolling stock.

However they are unlikely to end up with 125mph trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where and how though? You do realise that the money for this project is ONLY financed for this project and if it closes down then that money will not get spent elsewhere dont you?

If you stand on the deserted platform at Rugeley Trent Valley (not far from the future junction between HS2 Phase 1 and the WCML), there's a placard on the wall of the private business opposite which says "Health and Schools, Not HS2".
They don't know how deluded they are if they think it's a simple choice between these priorities (or that transport spend is unnecessary).
The other irony is that the business is located in the old station goods shed, put there by the LNWR when it was the HS2 of its day.

 

[quantinghome]

Or it could be that 250mph trains will be like concord in that they're too expensive for "normal" people to use and most people are happy with travel speeds as they are today. And that the lumbering slow Jumbo is traditional rail at lower cost and lower speed that most people can afford and are happy with! Only time will tell.

There's no evidence for this whatsoever. High Speed Rail is a proven, mature, technology as evidenced by its roll-out in virtually every developed country (and many developing countries) with the requisite population density. Every time faster trains are introduced between cities, the number of passengers goes up. High Speed Rail has always catered for the same passenger mix as the intercity services it replaced and some operators are now offering exceedingly cheap fares to compete against low-cost airlines (e.g. Ouigo).

If you want to draw an analogy to aircraft, you should compare the jumbo jet (which is not 'lumbering'; its cruise speed is Mach 0.85) to the pre-jet era transatlantic aircraft which were slower (they had to stop to refuel) and had lower capacity. Like HS2, jets (culminating in the jumbo) provided a quicker service with higher capacity. And they were cheaper, ushering in the era of mass air travel. As other posters have pointed out, HS2 offers huge economies of scale which if anything suggests fares would go down rather than up.