Plans to Upgrade the South TransPennine Line

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TfN-final-investment-programme-19-20.pdf

Journey time and capacity improvements between Cleethorpes and Doncaster to increase links between Northern Lincolnshire and the Sheffield City Region and the
North West

On page 35 (PDF page 13) I noticed there are plans to upgrade the South TransPennine Line between Cleethorpes and Doncaster including capacity improvements and journey time reductions by 2027.

What sort of upgrades could happen?

My plans would involve:

• Reopening the 4th Platform at Cleethorpes
• Redouble the line betweeen Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes
• Provide a half-hourly service between Sheffield and Cleethorpes 1 via Scunthorpe and 1 via Gainsborough
• Extend Scunthorpe terminators to Grimsby Town
• Direct services to Nottingham (hourly)
• Increase speed to 80mph reducing Doncaster to Cleethorpes to just 1 hour 5 minutes.

 

[Bald Rick]

https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TfN-final-investment-programme-19-20.pdf

On page 35 I noticed there are plans to upgrade the South TransPennine Line between Cleethorpes and Doncaster including capacity improvements and journey time reductions by 2027.

What sort of upgrades could happen?

My plans would involve:

• Reopening the 4th Platform at Cleethorpes
• Redouble the line betweeen Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes
• Provide a half-hourly service between Sheffield and Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe
• Extend Scunthorpe terminators to Grimsby Town.
• Direct services to Nottingham (hourly)
• Increase speed to 800mph reducing Doncaster to Cleethorpes to just 1 hour 5 minutes.

At that speed it would be 5 minutes, but I suspect the good folk of Scunny would object to the sonic boom.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

At that speed it would be 5 minutes, but I suspect the good folk of Scunny would object to the sonic boom.

Thank you for pointing that out

 

[Iskra]

I'm not sure there is enough demand for 2tph all day between Sheffield and Cleethorpes.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Deleted

 

[Grimsby town]

I think a realistic upgrade would be improving line speeds by 20mph above what they are currently.

This would mean:
•80mph Great Coates to Barnetby Station
•75mph from Wraby Junction to Thorne

I'm not sure why linespeeds aren't higher between Great Coates and Barnetby currently. The line is very straight and doesn't suffer the structural instability that Wraby to Thorne does. Only Healing crossing is not barried so that shouldn't be an issue either.

I'd agree that redoubling Grimsby to Cleethorpes would also sensible as I can see that becoming a real bottleneck in the future. Grade seperation to at Thorne Junction to allow the Goole line to run significantly quicker would also be sensible.

After Doncaster a new line from Mexborough avoiding the sharp curve to Swinton is a must as is reducing the sharpness of the curve at Rotherham Masborough. I'd also look to grade seperate the junctions for the lines to Rotherham Central as well as the Barnsley line at Meadowhall to provide capacity for increased fast services via HS2 to Leeds.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think a realistic upgrade would be improving line speeds by 20mph above what they are currently.

This would mean:
•80mph Great Coates to Barnetby Station
•75mph from Wraby Junction to Thorne

I'm not sure why linespeeds aren't higher between Great Coates and Barnetby currently. The line is very straight and doesn't suffer the structural instability that Wraby to Thorne does. Only Healing crossing is not barried so that shouldn't be an issue either.

I'd agree that redoubling Grimsby to Cleethorpes would also sensible as I can see that becoming a real bottleneck in the future. Grade seperation to at Thorne Junction to allow the Goole line to run significantly quicker would also be sensible.

After Doncaster a new line from Mexborough avoiding the sharp curve to Swinton is a must as is reducing the sharpness of the curve at Rotherham Masborough. I'd also look to grade seperate the junctions for the lines to Rotherham Central as well as the Barnsley line at Meadowhall to provide capacity for increased fast services via HS2 to Leeds.

That’s seems more realistic! I would reopen Masborough station! I guess they are planning an Upgrade because of HS2 and NPR (first stages in particular). Could there be any more links post the upgrade? It is apparently under £100 Million.

 

[DanTrain]

I'm not sure there is enough demand for 2tph all day between Sheffield and Cleethorpes.

What about 1tph TPE as now and 1tph or 1tp2h stopper via Brigg? Possibly extended to Sheffield as an extension of the Sheffield - Gainsborough Central service.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

What about 1tph TPE as now and 1tph or 1tp2h stopper via Brigg? Possibly extended to Sheffield as an extension of the Sheffield - Gainsborough Central service.

That’s a good suggestion! Seems pretty easy to do. 1tph between Sheffield and Cleethorpes via Brigg and 1tph Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes via Sheffield and Scunthorpe. Remember the planned Hourly service between Grimsby and Lincoln.

 

[VT 390]

Should the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service instead run to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central. Then the EMT service from Nottingham could run to the Airport instead, the reason I suggest this is that the TPE service will be operated with doors at the third and two third position on 185's which is better for dwell times at Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14. But the EMT service will probably reamin as 158 operation for a while so having it use the terminating platforms at Piccadilly would be better. A new Liverpool to Nottingham service could run via Derby and Crewe.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Should the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service instead run to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central. Then the EMT service from Nottingham could run to the Airport instead, the reason I suggest this is that the TPE service will be operated with doors at the third and two third position on 185's which is better for dwell times at Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14. But the EMT service will probably reamin as 158 operation for a while so having it use the terminating platforms at Piccadilly would be better. A new Liverpool to Nottingham service could run via Derby and Crewe.

TfN is planning as part of the next Northern and TransPenine Franchises for a new Manchester Airport to Derby via Crewe service and a Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe and Derby.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

TfN is planning as part of the next Northern and TransPenine Franchises for a new Manchester Airport to Derby via Crewe service and a Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe and Derby.

I don't think that's strictly true. I think they are after one of the Manchester Picc - Crewe services (I assume the Picc starter via Wilmslow) to go to Stoke on Trent; whilst a service would be needed from Liverpool Lime St - Runcorn - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Leicester. Not entirely sure how sensible the latter truly is (nor in fact the former) when you could instead just have a Nottingham - Derby - Stoke - Crewe - Airport and therefore cut the Liverpool - Picc - Airport - Crewe back to Airport only.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think that's strictly true. I think they are after one of the Manchester Picc - Crewe services (I assume the Picc starter via Wilmslow) to go to Stoke on Trent; whilst a service would be needed from Liverpool Lime St - Runcorn - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Leicester. Not entirely sure how sensible the latter truly is (nor in fact the former) when you could instead just have a Nottingham - Derby - Stoke - Crewe - Airport and therefore cut the Liverpool - Picc - Airport - Crewe back to Airport only.

They are assessing the case for extended EMT’s Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport and possibly replacing the Crewe-Manchester Airport service as well as the possibility of extending the Liverpool-Crewe via Manchester service to Stoke-on-Trent and introducing a Liverpool-Leicester service.

Back on to topic, seen as there are plans for an hourly service to Lincoln from Grimsby Town could it be possible to extend the service every two hours to Nottingham via Newark Castle and the other service terminating at Newark Northgate (as at present). I also think the Scunthorpe terminators could go to Cleethorpes.

This would mean the timetable would be as follows:

• 1tph: Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (TransPennine Express)
• 1tp2h: Nottingham-Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
• 1tp2h: Newark Northgate-Grimsby Town (East Midlands)
• 1tph: Sheffield-Cleethorpes Via Gainsborough (Northern)
• 1tp2h: Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
• 1tph: Doncaster-Cleethorpes (Northern)
• 4tpd: London Kings Cross-Cleethorpes (Grand Central)

 

[VT 390]

Would there be any demand for a Cleethorpes to Leeds service. This could either run as an extension to the Northern Doncaster to Scunthorpe service reversing at Doncaster or if the flat crossing at Doncaster were a Problem could run via the freight only line from Stainforth Junction to Skellow Junction and then either run in to Doncaster and reverse (via Carcroft Junction) or go direct to Leeds (via Adwick Junction).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Would there be any demand for a Cleethorpes to Leeds service. This could either run as an extension to the Northern Doncaster to Scunthorpe service reversing at Doncaster or if the flat crossing at Doncaster were a Problem could run via the freight only line from Stainforth Junction to Skellow Junction and then either run in to Doncaster and reverse (via Carcroft Junction) or go direct to Leeds (via Adwick Junction).

Might be worth considering maybe a new station at Askern. This could run as an extension to the Doncaster to Scunthorpe (from Leeds) calling at: Wakefield Westgate, Wakefield Kirkgate, Pontefract Monkhill, Askern (new station) , Doncaster, Kirk Sandall, Hatfield & Stainforth, Thorne South, Crowle, Althorpe, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

 

[DanTrain]

They are assessing the case for extended EMT’s Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport and possibly replacing the Crewe-Manchester Airport service as well as the possibility of extending the Liverpool-Crewe via Manchester service to Stoke-on-Trent and introducing a Liverpool-Leicester service.

Back on to topic, seen as there are plans for an hourly service to Lincoln from Grimsby Town could it be possible to extend the service every two hours to Nottingham via Newark Castle and the other service terminating at Newark Northgate (as at present). I also think the Scunthorpe terminators could go to Cleethorpes.

This would mean the timetable would be as follows:

• 1tph: Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (TransPennine Express)
• 1tp2h: Nottingham-Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
• 1tp2h: Newark Northgate-Grimsby Town (East Midlands)
• 1tph: Sheffield-Cleethorpes Via Gainsborough (Northern)
• 1tp2h: Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
• 1tph: Doncaster-Cleethorpes (Northern)
• 4tpd: London Kings Cross-Cleethorpes (Grand Central)

Is there actually room for all of that on the line? It looks great, but works out at 4.5 tph + extras, does it actually fit?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is there actually room for all of that on the line? It looks great, but works out at 4.5 tph + extras, does it actually fit?

• 1tph: Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (TransPennine Express)
  • Same as at present
• 1tp2h: Nottingham-Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
  • Nottingham and Newark could be achieved by extending the existing planned hourly (up from half-hourly as at present) from Lincoln to Newark (as at present) and Nottingham every two hours each.

• 1tp2h: Newark Northgate-Grimsby Town (East Midlands)
  • Same as at present, hourly between Lincoln and Grimsby when combined with the Nottingham to Cleethorpes service (already planned to go hourly between Lincoln and Grimsby by 2021)
• 1tph: Sheffield-Cleethorpes Via Gainsborough (Northern)
  • Easily be achieved by double tracking the line between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town and extend the planned service from Gainsborough to Cleethorpes. Could still be achieved without double tracking as this could be one the first of the new services to be introduced.
• 1tp2h: Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
  • Same As at present
• 1tph: Doncaster-Cleethorpes (Northern)
  • An extension of the existing Scunthorpe-Doncaster service, but requires double tracking of the Grimsby-Cleethorpes line.
• 4tpd: London Kings Cross-Cleethorpes (Grand Central)
  • Planned by Grand Central

Infrastructure improvements such as redoubling the Grimsby Town-Cleethorpes line, and reopening platform 4 at Cleethorpes would improve the line dramatically and provide more services per hour.

 

[DanTrain]

• 1tph: Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (TransPennine Express)
  • Same as at present
• 1tp2h: Nottingham-Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
  • Nottingham and Newark could be achieved by extending the existing planned hourly (up from half-hourly as at present) from Lincoln to Newark (as at present) and Nottingham every two hours each.

• 1tp2h: Newark Northgate-Grimsby Town (East Midlands)
  • Same as at present, hourly between Lincoln and Grimsby when combined with the Nottingham to Cleethorpes service (already planned to go hourly between Lincoln and Grimsby by 2021)
• 1tph: Sheffield-Cleethorpes Via Gainsborough (Northern)
  • Easily be achieved by double tracking the line between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town and extend the planned service from Gainsborough to Cleethorpes. Could still be achieved without double tracking as this could be one the first of the new services to be introduced.
• 1tp2h: Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes (East Midlands)
  • Same As at present
• 1tph: Doncaster-Cleethorpes (Northern)
  • An extension of the existing Scunthorpe-Doncaster service, but requires double tracking of the Grimsby-Cleethorpes line.
• 4tpd: London Kings Cross-Cleethorpes (Grand Central)
  • Planned by Grand Central

Infrastructure improvements such as redoubling the Grimsby Town-Cleethorpes line, and reopening platform 4 at Cleethorpes would improve the line dramatically and provide more services per hour.

Sounds like a solution to me...now where's the D(a)fT

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Sounds like a solution to me...now where's the D(a)fT

TfN seem to back an upgrade!

 

[DanTrain]

TfN seem to back an upgrade!

Yeah but they don't hold the purse strings!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yeah but they don't hold the purse strings!

That’s true! TfN need more powers but lets hope the Government allocate funding for the transport plan and hopefully an upgrade will happen (which is scheduled to happen before 2027). Don’t hold your breath!

 

[DanTrain]

That’s true! TfN need more powers but lets hope the Government allocate funding for the transport plan and hopefully an upgrade will happen (which is scheduled to happen before 2027). Don’t hold your breath!

Don't worry...I'm not

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Don't worry...I'm not

It would boost the region which is so poorly served by public transport and I think it is about time we changed that but we better pray they back the plans.

 

[DanTrain]

It would boost the region which is so poorly served by public transport and I think it is about time we changed that but we better pray they back the plans.

Yeah, Lincolnshire in general gets a pretty raw deal. Grimsby/Cleethorpes is among the likes of Middlesborough and Huddersfield for the largest places without a service to London. I mean if Corrour manages it, you'd have thought Cleethorpes might

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yeah, Lincolnshire in general gets a pretty raw deal. Grimsby/Cleethorpes is among the likes of Middlesborough and Huddersfield for the largest places without a service to London. I mean if Corrour manages it, you'd have thought Cleethorpes might

It’s been muted a few times to my account about a direct London service and ironically Middlesbrough and Huddersfield are getting direct trains to London from 2019 and 2020 respectively. Cleethorpes latest plan is Grand Central which proposed 4 direct services from London Kings Cross to Cleethorpes calling at Doncaster, Crowle, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes. This plan can be achieved by making the Bradford service 10 coaches as far as Doncaster then split them with 5 of those coaches going to Cleethorpes.

 

[DanTrain]

It’s been muted a few times to my account about a direct London service and ironically Middlesbrough and Huddersfield are getting direct trains to London from 2019 and 2020 respectively. Cleethorpes latest plan is Grand Central which proposed 4 direct services from London Kings Cross to Cleethorpes calling at Doncaster, Crowle, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes. This plan can be achieved by making the Bradford service 10 coaches as far as Doncaster then split them with 5 of those coaches going to Cleethorpes.

Sounds like a logical plan to me, here's hoping it actually happens!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The only issues could be the timings at Doncaster and the space at Kings Cross for 10 coached trains.

 

[DanTrain]

The only issues could be the timings at Doncaster and the space at Kings Cross for 10 coached trains.

Yes, it'd screw things up if one of the halves was late. Also the 12:35 departure Northbound from Doncaster is right up against a TPE and quite a few Southbound arrivals are up against services on the Hull line so some timetable re-jigging may be required.

 

[VT 390]

If the line was redoubled between Grimsby Town and Cleethorps then would there be demand for a more frequent Local service calling at all stations between Cleethorpes and Barton-on-Humber running a hourly instead of 2 hourly service, or would these services be to quiet?

 

[Killingworth]

If the line was redoubled between Grimsby Town and Cleethorps then would there be demand for a more frequent Local service calling at all stations between Cleethorpes and Barton-on-Humber running a hourly instead of 2 hourly service, or would these services be to quiet?

Looking at the population near the Barton line, which currently enjoys a 2 hourly single carriage 153 service, I'd doubt it. Obviously it would be welcomed by existing users and a few more, but there must be higher priorities for more subsidised rail construction and operation.

It's a most curious service. Normally a Northern 153, but with TPE crew and a TPE 185 for some trips. Supposed to transfer to East Midlands when/if the new franchise takes over in August/whenever.