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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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bramling

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Unless, given that NI was predominantly Remain, we go back to the idea of it seceding from the UK and joining the RoI. Problem solved that way, though you might find that instead of Republican terrorism we instead get Loyalist terrorism.

Growing up at a particular time such that hearing the word Belfast on the news was synonymous with the likes of Baghdad, Belgrade or the Gaza Strip, personally I’ve always had a feeling, if not hard view, that NI would better not be part of a union with GB.

There’s also the view that the demographics are such that this outcome is likely at some point anyway, with a key part of the GFA being the recognition that NI’s destiny is in the hands of its people.

All this assumes ROI actually *want* NI of course. Given NI is not a contributor towards the U.K., would ROI be able to afford NI?

Of course another scenario is that if ROI is starting to hurt because of Brexit, and due to the amount of trade between ROI and the U.K., then is there the possibility that ROI might *have* to leave the EU to forge a closer relationship with the U.K.?
 
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The simple and best solution to Northern Ireland is to end our occupation of the six counties and make the island of Ireland in to one united country again. This is the most common sense option. This would instantly solve the entire border issue after brexit takes place.
 

WelshBluebird

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The simple and best solution to Northern Ireland is to end our occupation of the six counties and make the island of Ireland in to one united country again. This is the most common sense option. This would instantly solve the entire border issue after brexit takes place.

Well apart from the facts that:
  1. Doing what you suggest certainly is not simple.
  2. NI may not want that.
Do you really want to dig all this up again after we have relative peace about the issue for the last two decades?
 
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Mag_seven

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The simple and best solution to Northern Ireland is to end our occupation of the six counties and make the island of Ireland in to one united country again. This is the most common sense option. This would instantly solve the entire border issue after brexit takes place.

If only it was a simple as that - suggest you read up on the history of Northern Ireland first.
 

Esker-pades

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"We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's spend that on re-uniting Ireland instead."

Brexit is not simple. The Good Friday Agreement was not simple to come by. The fact that people are willing to fundamentally alter that peace agreement for something that may not even be a good thing baffles me.

The solution is not simple, otherwise someone would have come up with it.

Every time someone on the leave side says "it's simple" or "it's a non-issue" the next question must be "if it is so simple, how do you solve it". The responses have either been things that don't actually work, things that don't exist or to say "well it's not our job to come up with them".

Even the amendment on re-negotiating the backstop didn't have any concrete proposals on what to replace it with.
 

Howardh

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The simple and best solution to Northern Ireland is to end our occupation of the six counties and make the island of Ireland in to one united country again. This is the most common sense option. This would instantly solve the entire border issue after brexit takes place.
So you are quite happy to dump UK-passport holders in a completely different country against their wishes, and still in the EU against their wishes (they had a democratic vote, remember?) and risk the almost certainty of many lives being lost in the uprising just to get what you want?? And you wonder why we think Brexiters are being selfish?
I'd like Brexiters to end their occupation of the UK as they are hell bent on dismantling it bit by bit.
 

Howardh

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"We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's spend that on re-uniting Ireland instead."

Brexit is not simple. The Good Friday Agreement was not simple to come by. The fact that people are willing to fundamentally alter that peace agreement for something that may not even be a good thing baffles me.

The solution is not simple, otherwise someone would have come up with it.

Every time someone on the leave side says "it's simple" or "it's a non-issue" the next question must be "if it is so simple, how do you solve it". The responses have either been things that don't actually work, things that don't exist or to say "well it's not our job to come up with them".

Even the amendment on re-negotiating the backstop didn't have any concrete proposals on what to replace it with.
BiB; yes it is, we tear up the referendum result and carry on as we were!!
 

Esker-pades

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BiB; yes it is, we tear up the referendum result and carry on as we were!!
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

That sentence should read "The solution [to carrying out Brexit whilst respecting the Good Friday Agreement] is not simple..."

(Of course, I would much rather we stayed in the EU. That way, things don't get messed around with!)
 

Billy A

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So you are quite happy to dump UK-passport holders in a completely different country against their wishes, and still in the EU against their wishes (they had a democratic vote, remember?) and risk the almost certainty of many lives being lost in the uprising just to get what you want?? And you wonder why we think Brexiters are being selfish?
I'd like Brexiters to end their occupation of the UK as they are hell bent on dismantling it bit by bit.
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU though.
 

Howardh

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Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU though.
So did London. It was an UK-wide poll; and had the citizens of NI who voted leave believed they could be still in the EU and part of the Republic, they may have voted to remain and change the whole result.
 

Basher

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Now listen all, just because we (EU members) all go off to Egypt with a 1001 other people i.e. security, press support staff etc. Does not mean that you, the plebs can go mad with you greenhouse gas omissions.We all needed to go for an all paid sunshine break. How can anybody have any trust in that lot, their motto is “do as I say not as I do”. The sooner we kick their butts the better.

PS. You must stop using your diesel cars , but Mrs Merkel can still burn German high sulphur coal in her power stations.
 

Esker-pades

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Now listen all, just because we (EU members) all go off to Egypt with a 1001 other people i.e. security, press support staff etc. Does not mean that you, the plebs can go mad with you greenhouse gas omissions.We all needed to go for an all paid sunshine break. How can anybody have any trust in that lot, their motto is “do as I say not as I do”. The sooner we kick their butts the better.

PS. You must stop using your diesel cars , but Mrs Merkel can still burn German high sulphur coal in her power stations.
I'm at a loss to what point you're making.

How will any of this change when/if we leave the EU?
 

EM2

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Oi, oi! Things just got interesting again...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47363307
Labour has said it is prepared to back another EU referendum to prevent a "damaging Tory Brexit".

Jeremy Corbyn is to tell Labour MPs later that the party will move to back another vote if their own proposed Brexit deal is rejected on Wednesday.

The BBC's Vicky Young said it was highly "significant" development as Mr Corbyn has previously been "lukewarm" about the idea of another vote.

Theresa May is under growing pressure to delay the 29 March Brexit date.

Labour are not yet making clear what their proposed referendum would be on.

But the prime minister, who will update MPs on the latest negotiations on Tuesday, has insisted the UK can still leave next month as planned.

Ahead of a series of votes on Brexit on Wednesday, Labour has also said the party will support a cross-party amendment, proposed by Labour's Yvette Cooper and Tory MP Sir Oliver Letwin, designed to rule out the prospect of a no-deal exit.
 

EM2

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Now listen all, just because we (EU members) all go off to Egypt with a 1001 other people i.e. security, press support staff etc. Does not mean that you, the plebs can go mad with you greenhouse gas omissions.We all needed to go for an all paid sunshine break. How can anybody have any trust in that lot, their motto is “do as I say not as I do”.
You know that they were invited by the Arab leaders, right? This isn't an EU-only summit.
 

Esker-pades

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I can see it being "we will vote for the May deal IF there is a referendum in place allowing the public to also accept this deal, or reject it (in which case we would remain)". If May's deal is so good it should walk a further referendum. So why would she worry?
Because it's the most enormous pile of absolute expletive.

I'd have three options:
1. Leave (No Deal)
2. Leave (May's Deal)
3. Remain

Obviously, if Remain did not get 50%, the most popular Leave option would be chosen. That is to prevent the Leave vote splitting and people shouting about it being unfair.
 

Howardh

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Because it's the most enormous pile of absolute expletive.

I'd have three options:
1. Leave (No Deal)
2. Leave (May's Deal)
3. Remain

Obviously, if Remain did not get 50%, the most popular Leave option would be chosen. That is to prevent the Leave vote splitting and people shouting about it being unfair.
By the time we get to a referendum if it ever happens, parliament should - if it goes true to form - have ruled out no-deal by then. It might still be the wet dream of the ERG but no-one else.
However I do think three should be the choice, and the least popular removed (unless one hits over 50%) and either by transferable vote or a fresh vote we choose from the final two options, except that everyone who votes hard or remain will have the deal as their second choice to prevent the third!
So it's not an easy or straightforward process.
 

Ianno87

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Because it's the most enormous pile of absolute expletive.

I'd have three options:
1. Leave (No Deal)
2. Leave (May's Deal)
3. Remain

Obviously, if Remain did not get 50%, the most popular Leave option would be chosen. That is to prevent the Leave vote splitting and people shouting about it being unfair.

It would need to be first prefence transferrable watch-a-ma-call-it.

If Remain got (say) 48% again, but Leave were split 26% each to Leave Deal or Leave No Deal.

What if half those who voted Leave (Deal) generally preferred as second preference to Remain, which is a rational and reasonable standpoint ("I want to leave, but only want to Leave under a Deal").

Then the will of 39% of the people would be respected, not 61%, which would be a Leave bias, not a Remain bias.

What gets forgotten by the most obsessed Brexiteers that we can always withdraw Article 50 and try again another day with a proper plan*

*Making a fairly wild assumption that a proper plan actually exists and will be in any way better than what is on the table now. Which it probably wouldn't
 

Esker-pades

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It would need to be first prefence transferrable watch-a-ma-call-it.

If Remain got (say) 48% again, but Leave were split 26% each to Leave Deal or Leave No Deal.

What if half those who voted Leave (Deal) generally preferred as second preference to Remain, which is a rational and reasonable standpoint ("I want to leave, but only want to Leave under a Deal").

Then the will of 39% of the people would be respected, not 61%, which would be a Leave bias, not a Remain bias.
Single Transferrable Vote, I think?

Where one ranks the options 1 to 3, then if none get an outright majority, the one with the fewest first place votes is discounted and the second preference votes for that option are distributed to the other options and we see which one gets the majority.
 

mmh

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Unless, given that NI was predominantly Remain, we go back to the idea of it seceding from the UK and joining the RoI. Problem solved that way, though you might find that instead of Republican terrorism we instead get Loyalist terrorism.

It's a real stretch to claim NI voted predominantly either way. Unsurprisingly it voted with a republican/unionist divide. Some habits are apparently very hard to break.
 

HH

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Whichever version it is, there's absolutely no chance of "No Deal" winning. So, the "let's cut off our noses to spite some Eurocrat" brigade won't be happy. If it ain't painful, it ain't proper Brexit!
 

dosxuk

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I'd go with three separate questions:

1) Should we a) actually leave or b) remain after all
2) If we leave should we a) go with Mrs May's amazing deal or b) go it alone and cut all ties with the nasty EU
3) If we remain, should we a) just go back to how things were when Nigel Farage was a loudmouth with no MPs or b) go "full EU", join schengen, join the single currency, sign up to the EU army, hand back our rebate and return our veto priveleges

If we're going to allow the full nuclear option of no-deal on a ballot surely there should be the opposite option available too?
 

Puffing Devil

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I agree with what you have written.
It is simply what we have now is not working. Change ie leaving may be for the worse but maybe it will be for the better I certainly hope so but with our politicians mindsets I fear it will be a missed opportunity

What specifically is not working?

You complained about not getting back more than we pay in - is that part not working?

Did you have another element that you thought that was not working, unrelated to your "we're not getting our money back" complaint?
 

EM2

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From Robert Peston - https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-25...ether-to-take-no-deal-off-table-for-29-march/
The prime minister is preparing a dramatic shift in her Brexit policy, namely an announcement that if her reworked Brexit deal is not passed by MPs on or before 12 March she will shortly afterwards give MPs a binding vote on whether or not to go ahead with a no-deal Brexit on 29 March.

This would be seen by many as a significant u-turn - because she will promise to abide by the will of Parliament, and thereby admit that a significant Brexit delay may be necessary.

As of Monday there was still uncertainty among her colleagues whether she would press the button on the volte face and put it to her Cabinet on Tuesday morning - where it will cause a furious row between Brexiters and Remainers.

The Brexiters are acutely aware that MPs would almost certainly vote to force the prime minister to delay Brexit and therefore prevent a no-deal departure on 29 March.

However absent that promise of a vote for MPs, which the PM is expected to make when addressing the House on Tuesday afternoon, somewhere between 15 and 25 ministers and parliamentary private secretaries - who hate the prospect of a no deal exit from the EU - were set to resign.

Some 23 of these government rebels - who are led by David Gauke, Amber Rudd and Greg Clark - met on Monday evening. And 18 of them made clear they were ready to rejoin the backbenchers.

Their departures would tear a devastating hole in May's government and also further undermine her ability to get any Brexit-related legislation passed.

Her u-turn on offering MPs a vote on whether to approve no-deal would be a recognition, her colleagues say, that the UK is not ready for a no-deal Brexit on 29 March.

"Preparations to avoid a severe shock to living standards and our security are simply not far enough advanced,"one said, adding that it would be impossible to eliminate all risks but much more needed to be done.

It would also be an admission that, absent such dramatic evasive action, Theresa May would not be able to avert perhaps the most painful collision of political humiliations ever endured by a prime minister.

Apart from the threatened ministerial resignations, on Wednesday MPs are set to vote for a plan devised by the senior backbench MPs Yvette Cooper, Sir Oliver Letwin and Nick Boles that would in effect rob her of the power to set the Brexit agenda.

The so-call Cooper Letwin amendment would lead to legislation, as soon as Thursday, that would compel the PM to sue the EU for a Brexit postponement, if no deal loomed, and could destroy confidence in her ability to set an agenda and govern.

So the PM and her ministers are braced for a tumultuous few days - that will go some way to determine the inextricably conjoined fates of Brexit Britain and the PM.

For the PM her pledge of a no-deal vote could deter some Tory MPs from backing Cooper Letwin and thus allow her to retain some control over the most important change to the UK in generations - but only at the price of a gargantuan u-turn, since she has consistently refused to countenance any Brexit delay.

That said, when she makes her statement to Parliament after Cabinet tomorrow, she will repeat her optimism that the EU will in the next fortnight make legally binding commitments via a so-called codicil to the Withdrawal Agreement such that the UK could not be held against its will in the controversial backstop arrangements forever.

She hopes that if the EU makes that compromise, MPs would at the last approve her deal.

But if they don’t, it now looks likely a no-deal departure won’t be the consequence - or at least not the immediate consequence.
 

Howardh

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Parliament will throw out May's Deal
They then go on to throw out No Deal
....so what are we left with? May trying - in the last over - to secure a much more softer deal to please Labour and get that through off the last ball?
If she'd dropped the stupid red lines that could have been done months ago?
Or there is an immediate extension of A50 with the guarantee of a May's Deal/Remain referendum, where the public might force Parliament to accept May's deal? If so - if she wants her deal that badly it's the only way for her to go.
How many on here would vote for it if the other option was remain?
 

Jonny

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Parliament will throw out May's Deal
They then go on to throw out No Deal
....so what are we left with? May trying - in the last over - to secure a much more softer deal to please Labour and get that through off the last ball?
If she'd dropped the stupid red lines that could have been done months ago?
Or there is an immediate extension of A50 with the guarantee of a May's Deal/Remain referendum, where the public might force Parliament to accept May's deal? If so - if she wants her deal that badly it's the only way for her to go.
How many on here would vote for it if the other option was remain?

That would be very unpopular among those voters upon whom the current government depends for its re-electability.

On a more general note,
There is supposed to be a mutual consent-veto system between Parliament and the government. When backbenchers seek to over-ride the government, we are in dangerous territory full stop. The point of checks and balances is that they are supposed to lock in the status quo. Over-riding them is very dangerous indeed.
 
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