EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

'Running down the clock' was mentioned a couple of weeks ago.
There won't be a meaningful vote this week, but it will be 'before March 12', i.e. about a fortnight before the exit date.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47348610

MPs will be able to have a final vote on the Brexit deal by 12 March, Prime Minister Theresa May has said.

Speaking to reporters as she travelled to a summit in Egypt, Mrs May ruled out holding the parliamentary vote on her deal this week.

She said talks with the European Union were "still ongoing".

Earlier, Environment Secretary Michael Gove urged his cabinet colleagues against backing a Commons vote on delaying Brexit.

Mr Gove said it would be the "wrong thing to do" if cabinet ministers Greg Clark, Amber Rudd and David Gauke supported the bid, which would push back the UK's exit date of 29 March.

 

[cjp]

Which part of the report is not factually accurate?

I did not say any of it was, please do not attribute to me something I have not done. What I was setting out was that the "facts" as reported were reports of people opinions with the exception I cited specifically of the per capita spend.

 

[Esker-pades]

I did not say any of it was, please do not attribute to me something I have not done. What I was setting out was that the "facts" as reported were reports of people opinions with the exception I cited specifically of the per capita spend.

I'll word my question differently. Apologies.

The CBI's report is slanted and based on opinion rather than fact with which I have no problem so long as you recognise this. Their one fact which is the per capita spend is both selective and self serving as well as being irrelevant to their earlier points.

In what way does the CBI's report cite opinions rather than facts? In what way are those opinions an inaccurate representation of the most likely outcomes? What facts are there to back your view up?

 

[Howardh]

I really, really don't care

Which is precisely why we are trying to stop or at least soften Brexit by any means possible. If you DID care, had a bit more empathy with those badly affected, we might reach a compromise.

Strikes me if you're not trying to "stop" us moving overseas and working, then the same thing works the other way, we' won't be "stopping" any EU coming here. So why not keep freedom of movement then?

 

[mmh]

Which is precisely why we are trying to stop or at least soften Brexit by any means possible. If you DID care, had a bit more empathy with those badly affected, we might reach a compromise.

Nobody is badly affected by a (so far, mythical) visa being valid for 90 vs 91 days. Hyperbole doesn't help, it's only likely to make people like me care even less.

Strikes me if you're not trying to "stop" us moving overseas and working, then the same thing works the other way, we' won't be "stopping" any EU coming here. So why not keep freedom of movement then?

What has a (future, potential, unimplemented) tourist visa got to do with moving overseas and working?

 

[Howardh]

Nobody is badly affected by a (so far, mythical) visa being valid for 90 vs 91 days. Hyperbole doesn't help, it's only likely to make people like me care even less.
What has a (future, potential, unimplemented) tourist visa got to do with moving overseas and working?

Working visa -you need one to work - which you don't need now - and it can be refused quite easily and probably will be so if they have sufficient EU workers. It's what you voted for, a restriction/control of the numbers of EU's coming here to work, it works both ways.
Tourist visa - high initial cost (there isn't one now); a limit of 90 days in 180 (so that messes my future plans where I was expecting to stay May/June, September/October, and at any other times of my choosing on the EU Med), possibility of refusal if they are unhappy with (a) financial situation and/or (b) medical insurance....neither of which would concern me but could affect students for example (financially) who would seek work to pay their way and those with severe medical conditions.
But you know all this..why ask?

 

[Doppelganger]

Nobody is badly affected by a (so far, mythical) visa being valid for 90 vs 91 days. Hyperbole doesn't help, it's only likely to make people like me care even less.



What has a (future, potential, unimplemented) tourist visa got to do with moving overseas and working?

But there are plenty of Brits who live in the EU who even now have zero clue as to what is actually going on. So talking about visas isn't helpful in that regard.

They are very much in limbo and even a vague understanding of the situation would go some way to reconciliation between the remain and leave position. But this seems a big ask...

 

[Howardh]

But there are plenty of Brits who live in the EU who even now have zero clue as to what is actually going on. So talking about visas isn't helpful in that regard.

They are very much in limbo and even a vague understanding of the situation would go some way to reconciliation between the remain and leave position. But this seems a big ask...

Anyone planning a trip late next month has the first problem that on no-deal we immediately lose the EHIC card, and anyone wanting to drive must apply for a green card and an international driving permit, the latter will be needed for car hire. We STILL don't know if tourists will need a visa or we can just enter with our passport (as the ETIAS system hasn't yet been introduced). Basically anyone starting a holiday in March which overlaps bidet will have to get those drivers documents before they go. Visas would take several days, maybe weeks to clear so if the announcement is made mid-March that we DO need them, many won't get them in time for travel so I hope common sense prevails and there is a visa-free grace period.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the signs are that 90-day tourist visits will not need a visa.
While International Driving Permits may be required, individual countries say differently.
Portugal says its rules won't change, so you don't need an IDP if your licence is written in English or Portuguese.
It also says it will have UK-only immigration channels at airports, with exactly the same rules as for EU citizens.
I'm heading there on Monday 1 April for a week (what an appropriate day!) so will be finding out first hand what Brexit really means.
The final rules on movement to/from the EU are still to emerge, but HMG seems determined to reduce them to the same level as, say, Morocco.
I'm still a firm remainer, and am miffed that my rights to live/work across the EU are being removed.
That and pointlessly rupturing our relationships with the other 27 states and cross-Europe institutions, after 46 years of painstaking work to build them up.
We used to lead on the single market, trade, competition and expansion. No more.
If (say) Airbus and BMW leave the UK, we will have only ourselves to blame.

 

[Howardh]

Breaking news on the Guardian's website, ther could be a further 21-month extension to Brexit (meaning Euro-elections for our MEP's) although one wonders what could be done in that time that shoiuld have been done already? The world's running out of cans.

 

[Senex]

If (say) Airbus and BMW leave the UK, we will have only ourselves to blame.

No, the 17.4 million who voted Brexit will be to blame, along with the Tory and Labour leaderships at Westminster.

 

[HH]

Interestingly that link says that citizens of Andorra will be required to get an ETIAS visa as well. I imagine that they would be much more affected by it then us! Considering that they are landlocked by France and Spain and the only way to get anywhere is to go in to France and Spain as they don't even have an airport! So the UK certainly won't be the worst affected place.

Not too many border control points in the Pyrenees...

 

[bnm]

 

[hooverboy]

All the signs are that 90-day tourist visits will not need a visa.
While International Driving Permits may be required, individual countries say differently.
Portugal says its rules won't change, so you don't need an IDP if your licence is written in English or Portuguese.

why do you need an international driving permit?
you can fly across the pond,and hire a car(and vice versa) on your existing one.
many countries have reciprocal "passporting" covenants in place.

again, this is pure scaremongering.

 

[EM2]

why do you need an international driving permit?
you can fly across the pond,and hire a car(and vice versa) on your existing one.
many countries have reciprocal "passporting" covenants in place.

again, this is pure scaremongering.

The Government seem to think that it could be an issue - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/interna...#driving-in-the-eu-and-eea-from-29-march-2019

If there is an EU exit deal, UK licence holders will be able to continue to drive in all EU and EEA countries using their UK driving licence.

In the event that there is no EU Exit deal, the government will seek to put in place new arrangements for EU and EEA countries to recognise UK driving licences when people are visiting, for example on holiday or business trips. Until such arrangements are in place, UK driving licence holders may need an IDP in addition to their UK driving licence to drive when visiting EU and EEA countries

Each EU and EEA country will decide if they require a foreign driver to have an IDP, in addition to a driving licence, to legally drive in their country.

In some circumstances you may need more than one IDP. For example, when driving through France (1968 IDP) to Spain (1949 IDP).

 

[HH]

The Government seem to think that it could be an issue - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/interna...#driving-in-the-eu-and-eea-from-29-march-2019

Now don't go confusing us with facts. Just lay back and think of England... and everything will be OK. Philip Green said so.

 

[Howardh]

why do you need an international driving permit?

Because that will be the LAW - unless we get a proper deal which is reciprocal. Remember you voted for the hard leave that looks like it's coming.

 

[zuriblue]

Sometimes it takes an outsider to tell it as it is. From today’s New York Times:

“The bottom line is simple: Brexit has been, is and will be a disaster for Britain. The 2016 vote was manipulated through lies. A country that has benefited from its 46-year participation in a union of more than a half-billion Europeans is drifting toward a self-amputation understood by few, opposed by the young, abetted by a dissembling anti-American Labour leader, driven by little-England Tory right-wingers holding the country for ransom, and, according to polls, no longer wanted by the majority.”

From what I’ve seen, many of this thread’s regulars all come under the “understood by few” umbrella.

 

[SteveP29]

What we need is a full proper hard no deal brexit where we leave the EU and leave everything associated with it. This means leaving the customs zone and leaving the trade zone and everything like this

And the circle closes itself and we are once again now talking about a hard border between the ROI and NI

 

[SteveP29]

We have a service driven economy, we don't make many actual product and we don't have the climate, natural resources or manpower to produce our demand for goods domestically, which makes it basically impossible for us to have a surplus in trade in goods. We do have a trade surplus in services with the EU

Which, without the collective bargaining of the EU leaves us to be held to ransom by any country that wants to trade with us, knowing that we simply can't get these goods internally

 

[Howardh]

why do you need an international driving permit?
you can fly across the pond,and hire a car(and vice versa) on your existing one.
many countries have reciprocal "passporting" covenants in place.

again, this is pure scaremongering.

Here, from Brexit's Own Daily. Enjoy.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...res-need-know-driving-abroad-post-Brexit.html

Do you often drive your own car abroad for holidays or work?
If so, there's a lot changing around the rules you'll need to know and documentation you have to carry once the UK's divorce from the EU is finalised.
Here are the four main changes that impact Britons driving in Europe after March 29.

Green Cards, Driving Permits, your regular Passport + possible Visa and certain cities have low emission zones require valid vehicles to have stickers (no, I didn't know either)

 

[jellybaby]

certain cities have low emission zones require valid vehicles to have stickers

That's not a Brexit change. I've got a French Crit-Air sticker from my summer holiday last year.

Edit: Okay, the exemption for people driving 30+ year old vehicles might change with Brexit.

 

[Howardh]

That's not a Brexit change. I've got a French Crit-Air sticker from my summer holiday last year.

Indeed, one would require this sticker regardless of Brexit, but I thought it was worth mentioning as I knew nowt about so tag it on. Are all of these zones covered by one sticker - or is it a separate one for each city? meaning if it's just one size fits all, if it came to Britain after Brexit would we comply with the same regulations so there's harmony?

 

[jellybaby]

Are all of these zones covered by one sticker - or is it a separate one for each city?

The French one is for all zones in France, apparently there are 28 of them. The German system is different and there are 58 zones. Austria, Belgium, Denmark and Spain are all different again.

My French one was fairly easy, quick and cheap to obtain but it is extra paperwork if you are planning a big trip. I think you are okay on motorways so you mostly need them for where you are going, not places you pass through.

Of course if you drive an old diesel you might find your vehicle banned from some areas some of the time.

meaning if it's just one size fits all, if it came to Britain after Brexit would we comply with the same regulations so there's harmony?

I expect as the system matures there will be an EU wide scheme in 5-10 years time.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Joining the EEA of EFTA is the same as remaining in the EU.

No it isn't.
We would no longer be EU members, thus it would be leaving the EU, thus it would be satisfying the result of the (advisory) referendum.

Remaining in the EEA or EFTA and having an Iceland / Liechtenstein / Norway / Switzerland style brexit deal would be a disaster. This is the worst possible option available.

No. The worst option is jumping without any kind of safety net, which is exactly what a no deal situation is.

What we need is a full proper hard no deal brexit where we leave the EU and leave everything associated with it. This means leaving the customs zone and leaving the trade zone and everything like this. This is what we voted for.

It may be what YOU voted for, but certainly you have no idea if it was the same for the other 17 odd million who voted to leave. Not all would agree with you.

I would accept a deal where we would retain full freedom of movement and the right to live and work and study in any other EU/EFTA/EEA country after brexit and in return we entered in to an agreement that allowed all citizens of EU/EFTA/EEA countries to continue to have freedom of movement and have the right to live and work and study in the UK. This would be fine as long as this was it and we left everything else and didn't keep anything else that the EU or EFTA or EEA offers or any of their other policies or laws or rules or regulations.

What EU laws and regulations do you need to be away from so much?

why do you need an international driving permit?
you can fly across the pond,and hire a car(and vice versa) on your existing one.
many countries have reciprocal "passporting" covenants in place.

again, this is pure scaremongering.

Not scaremongering at all. Part of a no deal situation would possibly be other EU countries not recognising the UK driving license.
A deal is needed to ensure that is avoided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the circle closes itself and we are once again now talking about a hard border between the ROI and NI

Unless, given that NI was predominantly Remain, we go back to the idea of it seceding from the UK and joining the RoI. Problem solved that way, though you might find that instead of Republican terrorism we instead get Loyalist terrorism.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Whatever happens though it will only inconvenience a small percentage of people. Like i said only a small percentage of our population has actually used their right to live and work and study in other EU/EFTA/EEA countries. Yes many people go on holiday but that's normally only a few times a year or occasionally so i am sure that they can manage to get a visa or do whatever is required. So yes some people will be inconvenienced but it us only a very small percentage of our population that will be. I imagine that a lot of the thousands of pro EU and anti brexit people complaining probably rarely even leave the UK.

You seriously cannot see any problem with introducing extra steps to travelling when there are currently none? Things like getting visas are not trivial and can easily be refused.
And no - the people complaining about this kind of thing are the most likely to run into these issues.

As I said before some of my colleagues have recently gone to a Front End Web Development conference in Amsterdam at very short notice - that would not have been possible if visas were needed.
A colleague from my companies eastern European offices joined us for a few weeks last year and the visa stuff was a massive pain in the backside, with him even having to return home for a week in the middle of the work to be able to renew it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not a Brexit change. I've got a French Crit-Air sticker from my summer holiday last year.

Edit: Okay, the exemption for people driving 30+ year old vehicles might change with Brexit.

I don't entirely see the need for stickers when cameras can just look up by registration number. Non-domestic vehicles could perhaps have to prove their credentials, but this could be done online.

Of course, the, er, EU, could standardise it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Unless, given that NI was predominantly Remain, we go back to the idea of it seceding from the UK and joining the RoI. Problem solved that way, though you might find that instead of Republican terrorism we instead get Loyalist terrorism.

That would be deeply unpopular, as NI is deeply divided over the issue, and the GFA is a compromise over the 2 sides.

 

[Howardh]

Unless, given that NI was predominantly Remain, we go back to the idea of it seceding from the UK and joining the RoI. Problem solved that way, though you might find that instead of Republican terrorism we instead get Loyalist terrorism.

And remember those were on the winning (ie leave) side so they would be double-whammed for their (winning) vote; end up STILL in the EU and in a completely different country. Democracy, huh?? Yes, I think there might be the odd cross word or two.