EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[YorkshireBear]

If that is EU law, then the Current Government and the last tory/lib dem and Labour ones has been breaking it or not enforcing it. As seen on Ch5, ch4, and everywhere else not kicking people out. Worse still the posh person said" No from countries we have nothing in common with" If we just talk about EU, Polls have been the largest group since the 1950s.. so there has been a link between the two for 70 years.

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

Exactly. This is one of the things I was referring to when I said who is actually failing us, our government or the EU. Our government have always had the power to stop it but didn't want to fund the border force and council enough. On some things its the EU. But on this major topic within the referendum, I believe that our government has let us down.

 

[SteveP29]

Look at how they are now trying to create an EU military

Evidence, or it isn't happening and you're a sucker for the right wing shi*ehawks in the press

Channel 5 does wonders in that department.

You think that's a representative sample of people who are immigrants/ benefit claimants etc?
You do know they concentrate on THE worst cases don't you?
You do know they are a television channel chasing ratings and advertising income, don't you?
My partner cannot work due to health reasons, so we claim Housing Benefit (as we are entitled to) to allow us to pay our rent. That puts me in the category the government likes to call scroungers. I work 35 hours a week and earn a decent wage, but I can't support my family with what I am paid, so I'm a scrounger because I claim assistance to allow me to survive. By your judgement that makes me as bad as the feckless bast*rds on Benefits Street that have never worked. Thanks for that.

If we just talk about EU, Polls have been the largest group since the 1950s

I take it you mean Poles, as in Polish people, people from Poland, not opinion polls?

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

That's something you need to ask the government about, only they can explain why they decided not to follow a policy that would have contained immigration. I have my suspicions as to why they didn't and it fits with the narrative of this government, I doubt you've put that much thought into it though.

 

[Howardh]

A number of people voted because there believe immigration needs to stop and and sort itself out before moving forward. There is also a number of people who ..... it's NOT freedom of movement that is the problem is the freedom to claim benefits.. Channel 5 does wonders in that department.

They're in for a shock then, we could and should remove such claimants - the rule is three months tops and if you can't support yourselves then off you go. Same applies to Brits in the EU of course. You can't blame the EU if the UK never applied the EU's rules to our advantage.
Meanwhile https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...rkforce-decline-numbers-elsewhere-soar-brexit

The number of workers in the UK from elsewhere in the EU fell by 61,000 at a time when the number of British and non-EU workers soared, official figures show.

There were an estimated 2.33 million workers from the EU27 in the UK between October to December in 2017, but that figure dropped to 2.27 million a year later. A notable drop in workers from A8 countries, which joined the bloc in 2004 and include Poland and the Czech Republic, largely accounted for the decrease.

Take that as you will, we clearly need immigrants and they will be coming in larger numbers from elsewhere, but fewer from the EU means this "freedom of movement must be stopped" is clearly a red, blue and white herring. Can we have it back, please??

 

[EM2]

If that is EU law, then the Current Government and the last tory/lib dem and Labour ones has been breaking it or not enforcing it.

Not only that, but when Poland, Romania and the other Eastern European members joined, existing member states were permitted to restrict free movement of labour from those states for seven years. Guess which country decided not to bother?

 

[87 027]

A power to do something is not the same as a duty to do something. You don't have to exercise a power.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A power to do something is not the same as a duty to do something. You don't have to exercise a power.

Correct.

But don't you think it is a bit disingenuous to complain about "uncontrolled immigration" and the effects thereof, whilst the government choose to specifically not exercise some powers they have to restrict that immigration and dependence on the state from those individuals?

As I have mentioned before, the various British governments have form with this kind of thing with a lot of EU related things. E.g. gold plating EU legislation and then complaining about those rules being "red tape" etc etc.

 

[87 027]

I agree, I was supporting those who say the EU is being unfairly blamed. There are plenty of other examples of gold plating. The metric martyrs case and certain agricultural directives spring to mind. Someone did a report around 10 or so years ago which showed that in some cases the UK version of EU directives was around 5 times longer than the original!

A regulation applies automatically, for example GDPR, but member states transpose directives into their own national legislation - whether to copy and paste, or interpret and gold plate, is a choice for each country...

As it happens the UK have rolled GDPR and the Law Enforcement Directive into the updated Data Protection Act 2018, so GDPR will still apply in the event of a hard Brexit.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A good example being the disability legislation on UK railways, I believe we were one of the only countries to put a date for ALL stock to be compliant.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I agree, I was supporting those who say the EU is being unfairly blamed. There are plenty of other examples of gold plating. The metric martyrs case and certain agricultural directives spring to mind. Someone did a report around 10 or so years ago which showed that in some cases the UK version of EU directives was around 5 times longer than the original!

A regulation applies automatically, for example GDPR, but member states transpose directives into their own national legislation - whether to copy and paste, or interpret and gold plate, is a choice for each country...

As it happens the UK have rolled GDPR and the Law Enforcement Directive into the updated Data Protection Act 2018, so GDPR will still apply in the event of a hard Brexit.

Correct and it also applies to the UK Public Contract Regulations 2015, derived from the EU Directives. The one the Brexit boys and girls says forces us to award our contracts to other member states' companies. Having conducted numerous of competitions under the Regulations I can assure you this is NOT the case.

 

[AY1975]

Correct.

But don't you think it is a bit disingenuous to complain about "uncontrolled immigration" and the effects thereof, whilst the government choose to specifically not exercise some powers they have to restrict that immigration and dependence on the state from those individuals?

As I have mentioned before, the various British governments have form with this kind of thing with a lot of EU related things. E.g. gold plating EU legislation and then complaining about those rules being "red tape" etc etc.

Exactly, well said!

I also find it ironic that many Brexit supporters complain about being ruled by faceless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, but they'd be quite happy to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats at the World Trade Organisation (which doesn't have an elected parliament, whereas there is an EU parliament and we elect our MEPs).

At present, we have the ability to shape EU policy through our MEPs, but after Brexit we will lose that. If we leave the EU without a deal, we would go from being an EU rule maker to a WTO rule taker (and a USA rule taker if we want a trade deal with the US). Even under Theresa May's deal or a softer, Norway-style deal we would become an EU rule taker instead of a rule maker. That's not taking back control, it's losing it.

 

[HH]

And a China rule taker, and... and... who knows what. We're not as important as we like to think we are.

 

[GusB]

I also find it ironic that many Brexit supporters complain about being ruled by faceless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, but they'd be quite happy to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats at the World Trade Organisation (which doesn't have an elected parliament, whereas there is an EU parliament and we elect our MEPs).

Not to mention the houseful of unelected people on £300-odd-a-day expenses in "the other place".

 

[hooverboy]

If we need (and I still think we won't) Visas - and probably certainly to fill in ETIAS forms, what will the procedure be @ St Pancras? As far as I know passports and tickets are checked this side of the channel, thus someone with the wrong docs couldn't travel. However, especially r/e visas, how long will it then take to process a queue, especially if a couple of pax's documents aren't in order? And what if the first country of stay is Holland or Germany yet we have to alight in Belgium and maybe even leave the station to catch a coach or something?

Perhaps a Brexit voter knows all the answers?

an ESTA style document may be a possibility, but there are some countries where you don't even need those.their immigration deparments will already profile in advance,and you turn up at the border control on landing and get issued with a 3 month temporary visa automatically at the booth.
this is a legal document and must be presented along with your passport at places like hotels etc when booking accomodation,or hiring a car etc.
it's very easy.

just book flight/train 24 hrs in advance and submit passport details at the time of booking.
I would recommend you bringing either a business letter of invite or your holiday schedule to show the customs official if they ask you about the nature of your visit.

If everything goes smoothly then it should take no longer than an extra 20-30 minutes for the processing at border control(mostly down to slightly longer queues)...mostly on the arrivals side I should add.

if you are not permitted to enter you would get told when you tried to check in.

as for st pancras to germany via belgium, then the first port of call is still france and they will do the relevant checks,after that it is schengen.
the system would be like swedish customs checks on the oresund train.no need to alight.(process takes 20 minutes or so.)

1)alight kastrup airport(copenhagen)
2)board train to sweden
3)train will cross oresund bridge and stop at hyllie station
4)customs officials board train and check documents
5)departing passengers alight, onward passengers stay
6)customs officials alight
7)off you go!

on our side, they might extend ashford international or ebbsfleet with a couple of extra tracks/platforms for holding trains, and customs checks could be carried out there on inward trains.

 

[Howardh]

an ESTA style document may be a possibility, but there are some countries where you don't even need those.their immigration deparments will already profile in advance,and you turn up at the border control on landing and get issued with a 3 month temporary visa automatically at the booth.
this is a legal document and must be presented along with your passport at places like hotels etc when booking accomodation,or hiring a car etc.
it's very easy.

just book flight/train 24 hrs in advance and submit passport details at the time of booking.
I would recommend you bringing either a business letter of invite or your holiday schedule to show the customs official if they ask you about the nature of your visit.

If everything goes smoothly then it should take no longer than an extra 20-30 minutes for the processing at border control(mostly down to slightly longer queues)...mostly on the arrivals side I should add.

if you are not permitted to enter you would get told when you tried to check in.

as for st pancras to germany via belgium, then the first port of call is still france and they will do the relevant checks,after that it is schengen.
the system would be like swedish customs checks on the oresund train.no need to alight.(process takes 20 minutes or so.)

1)alight kastrup airport(copenhagen)
2)board train to sweden
3)train will cross oresund bridge and stop at hyllie station
4)customs officials board train and check documents
5)departing passengers alight, onward passengers stay
6)customs officials alight
7)off you go!

on our side, they might extend ashford international or ebbsfleet with a couple of extra tracks/platforms for holding trains, and customs checks could be carried out there on inward trains.

Thanks for that innput but all that sounds appalling considering today you can just show up with your passport, buy your ticket and board. However, should the Spanish continue their (farcical) objections to Gibraltar and try to install the Schengen Visa on us all wherever we wanted to travel within the EU/Schengen the simplest would be a three-month tourist visa which would require filling in this form, https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/ho...tvp2eYE6IY2IWu00ATfWrO1_g55fuu_y-vqT35qgOB664 (click on "tourist visa"), sending it off with photographs and the cheque, maybe having an on-line discussion or even having to trail to an embassy, possibly have it rejected but no refund (kerchang) and the process likely to take weeks - maybe months at holiday time.
Is THAT what we voted for? There will no doubt be huge queues with people who simply want a day trip (which appears forbidden as you have to state your first night stay) and they don't have any visa, the wrong visa, an out of date visa or passport with less than 6 months left so will hold everyone else up being processed.
Nice one, Brexit.

 

[scarby]

an ESTA style document may be a possibility, but there are some countries where you don't even need those.their immigration deparments will already profile in advance,and you turn up at the border control on landing and get issued with a 3 month temporary visa automatically at the booth.
this is a legal document and must be presented along with your passport at places like hotels etc when booking accomodation,or hiring a car etc.
it's very easy.

just book flight/train 24 hrs in advance and submit passport details at the time of booking.
I would recommend you bringing either a business letter of invite or your holiday schedule to show the customs official if they ask you about the nature of your visit.

If everything goes smoothly then it should take no longer than an extra 20-30 minutes for the processing at border control(mostly down to slightly longer queues)...mostly on the arrivals side I should add.

if you are not permitted to enter you would get told when you tried to check in.

as for st pancras to germany via belgium, then the first port of call is still france and they will do the relevant checks,after that it is schengen.
the system would be like swedish customs checks on the oresund train.no need to alight.(process takes 20 minutes or so.)

1)alight kastrup airport(copenhagen)
2)board train to sweden
3)train will cross oresund bridge and stop at hyllie station
4)customs officials board train and check documents
5)departing passengers alight, onward passengers stay
6)customs officials alight
7)off you go!

on our side, they might extend ashford international or ebbsfleet with a couple of extra tracks/platforms for holding trains, and customs checks could be carried out there on inward trains.

Agree with Howard that this sounds an atrocious prospect - I can’t see business people making an hour flight from London to Amsterdam for a meeting or conference regarding an ”extra 20-30 minutes” for ”processing” as being ”smooth”, and certainly not having to get a letter of invitation, nor sitting at Ebbsfleet for 20 minutes at the end of a long day.

 

[Puffing Devil]

an ESTA style document may be a possibility, but there are some countries where you don't even need those.their immigration deparments will already profile in advance,and you turn up at the border control on landing and get issued with a 3 month temporary visa automatically at the booth.
this is a legal document and must be presented along with your passport at places like hotels etc when booking accomodation,or hiring a car etc.
it's very easy.

just book flight/train 24 hrs in advance and submit passport details at the time of booking.
I would recommend you bringing either a business letter of invite or your holiday schedule to show the customs official if they ask you about the nature of your visit.

If everything goes smoothly then it should take no longer than an extra 20-30 minutes for the processing at border control(mostly down to slightly longer queues)...mostly on the arrivals side I should add.

if you are not permitted to enter you would get told when you tried to check in.

as for st pancras to germany via belgium, then the first port of call is still france and they will do the relevant checks,after that it is schengen.
the system would be like swedish customs checks on the oresund train.no need to alight.(process takes 20 minutes or so.)

1)alight kastrup airport(copenhagen)
2)board train to sweden
3)train will cross oresund bridge and stop at hyllie station
4)customs officials board train and check documents
5)departing passengers alight, onward passengers stay
6)customs officials alight
7)off you go!

on our side, they might extend ashford international or ebbsfleet with a couple of extra tracks/platforms for holding trains, and customs checks could be carried out there on inward trains.

Thanks for that vision of the future. That's business and holiday travel made n times more complicated and expensive than it ever needs to be.

Question - Have you seen the queues at passport control for Non-EU Citizens? They are huge. I don't want to be part of that. Neither do I want to pay the £200 it has cost me to get Global Entry clearance for the USA, though that may well happen. Thanks Brexit.

 

[Howardh]

Thanks for that vision of the future. That's business and holiday travel made n times more complicated and expensive than it ever needs to be.

Question - Have you seen the queues at passport control for Non-EU Citizens? They are huge. I don't want to be part of that. Neither do I want to pay the £200 it has cost me to get Global Entry clearance for the USA, though that may well happen. Thanks Brexit.

Look on the bright side, if this does happen (especially tourist/business visas) there'll be such an outcry that we'll be back in the EU before Lancashire get bowled out for under 100 again. No party would back Brexit then, it would be suicidal.

 

[swt class 450]

Currently the EU lets citizens of many non EU countries visit visa free (within the Schengen area) for a three months (90 days) period within every six months (180 days) period without needing any visa or permit or esta style visa or anything like that. They can just turn up at the border and enter. This includes citizens of, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Georgia, United Arab Emirates, most of the Central America and South America countries, etc etc etc. So it is quite likely that the EU may put the UK in to this same category and apply this same policy to us.

 

[scarby]

Look on the bright side, if this does happen (especially tourist/business visas) there'll be such an outcry that we'll be back in the EU before Lancashire get bowled out for under 100 again. No party would back Brexit then, it would be suicidal.

The business crowd would have a fit. I’m talking about the people you see turn up to the gate at ”final call” with hand luggage and sit in business class. They are the airlines’ best customers, paying the premium fares for fast track, last on/first off, etc., and flying often. They expect to be in a taxi heading to their meeting while the rest of us are at the luggage carousel. Like ‘em or loathe ‘em, in their world time is money.

 

[Howardh]

Currently the EU lets citizens of many non EU countries visit visa free (within the Schengen area) for a three months (90 days) period within every six months (180 days) period without needing any visa or permit or esta style visa or anything like that. They can just turn up at the border and enter. This includes citizens of, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Georgia, United Arab Emirates, most of the Central America and South America countries, etc etc etc. So it is quite likely that the EU may put the UK in to this same category and apply this same policy to us.

Except that from 2021 they will, like us, require the ETIAS form (example Canada). https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/apply-from-canada/ meaning that their travel formalities could be less stringent than ours if we need full-on Visas.

Note: (Starting January 1, 2021, Canadian citizens will have to

apply for an ETIAS visa prior to their travel towards Europe, in order to be allowed to enter the territory.)

So while your statement may be factually correct today, it won't in future. Would have been nice if you had added that as you clearly are aware of it.

 

[swt class 450]

Interestingly that link says that citizens of Andorra will be required to get an ETIAS visa as well. I imagine that they would be much more affected by it then us! Considering that they are landlocked by France and Spain and the only way to get anywhere is to go in to France and Spain as they don't even have an airport! So the UK certainly won't be the worst affected place.

 

[dosxuk]

So it is quite likely that the EU may put the UK in to this same category and apply this same policy to us.

This, of course, requires us to come to an agreement, a "deal" if you like, with the EU over such details. They're very unlikely to be doing anything to help us out if a) we crash out with no agreements because our government are totally inept b) we run off into the sun with the agreed £39bn 'divorce' fee and c) don't reciprocate with similar rules for visiting EU citizens to the UK.

 

[Esker-pades]

Interestingly that link says that citizens of Andorra will be required to get an ETIAS visa as well. I imagine that they would be much more affected by it then us! Considering that they are landlocked by France and Spain and the only way to get anywhere is to go in to France and Spain as they don't even have an airport! So the UK certainly won't be the worst affected place.

That doesn't make our position good. It's no better than this situation: "Oh look! I may have been punched in the face and pouring blood, but that guy over there has got a broken nose and jaw! Whoooo! Look at our enhanced position!"

 

[Howardh]

That doesn't make our position good. It's no better than this situation: "Oh look! I may have been punched in the face and pouring blood, but that guy over there has got a broken nose and jaw! Whoooo! Look at our enhanced position!"

Strikes me the EU are doing exactly what the UK wanted - stringent control of borders. Another in the "why leave?" inbox. Love to see the faces of the sweaty and frustrated parents with kids in to when they are struggling in the queue for hours trying to get into Greece when it's 35c in the shade as we will be treated as third-country immigrants. Maybe we should have the referendum vote then??
The one plus is where I go it's a relatively small airport with little traffic from outside the EU, so as most flights in are EU domestic and won't require immigration queues, it should just be the UK flight I am on with 200pax in the queue rather than the thousands that arrive in one go at, say, Rome or Paris. Or even Athens.

 

[radamfi]

Currently the EU lets citizens of many non EU countries visit visa free (within the Schengen area) for a three months (90 days) period within every six months (180 days) period without needing any visa or permit or esta style visa or anything like that. They can just turn up at the border and enter. This includes citizens of, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Georgia, United Arab Emirates, most of the Central America and South America countries, etc etc etc. So it is quite likely that the EU may put the UK in to this same category and apply this same policy to us.

Which means if you can't get a visa you have to have two houses. After you pass the 3 month limit you are banned from the whole Schengen area so you can't move country to country. You have to move somewhere like Ireland for the rest of the 6 month period. Don't see how that's better than the status quo.

 

[Howardh]

Tourists etc will be limited to 90 days in 180 regardless of whether it's a visa or ETIAS. Can a Brexit voter please tell me if I arrive at 1pm and leave at 11am the following day, does that count as none, one or two days out of the allocation?

 

[swt class 450]

Whatever happens though it will only inconvenience a small percentage of people. Like i said only a small percentage of our population has actually used their right to live and work and study in other EU/EFTA/EEA countries. Yes many people go on holiday but that's normally only a few times a year or occasionally so i am sure that they can manage to get a visa or do whatever is required. So yes some people will be inconvenienced but it us only a very small percentage of our population that will be. I imagine that a lot of the thousands of pro EU and anti brexit people complaining probably rarely even leave the UK.

I imagine the only way that we could retain full freedom of movement and the right to live and work and study in any other EU/EFTA/EEA country after brexit is if we entered in to an agreement that allowed all citizens of EU/EFTA/EEA countries to continue to have freedom of movement and have the right to live and work and study in the UK. I can't see any other way it could work.

The number one most important thing is upholding democracy and carrying out the choice of the people to leave the EU. This is far more important than whether or not we will need to get a visa to travel. This is what we voted for and therefore it must happen. Failing to carry out brexit and leave the EU would be a complete betrayal of the people and an extremely undemocratic thing to do.

In response to Howardh every 00:00:00 to 23:59:59 period is counted as one day. It is not each 24 hour period. So as for your question it would count as two days. This is the same policy with visas in pretty much every country in the world. So even arriving just before midnight is counted as one of your days or leaving just after midnight is counted as one if your days or even just staying for a hours on the same day is counted as one of your days. This is the same if you get a visa for any country. I don't see the problem with it.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Small percentage? Are you joking, have you seen how busy the ports and airports are?

Maybe a small percentage to the ignorant people who don't understand how an economy works and don't realise without all these travelling "suits" help keep this country above the water for people who don't leave their sofas the ability to exist full stop

 

[EM2]

The number one most important thing is upholding democracy and carrying out the choice of the people to leave the EU. This is far more important than whether or not we will need to get a visa to travel. This is what we voted for and therefore it must happen. Failing to carry out brexit and leave the EU would be a complete betrayal of the people and an extremely undemocratic thing to do.

We can leave the EU, join the EEA or EFTA (or have a deal along those lines) and the referendum result is upheld.
So why did the Government put in 'red lines' that heavily restrict the country to the type of deal that can be offered?

 

[swt class 450]

Joining the EEA of EFTA is the same as remaining in the EU. This is not upholding the referendum results. It is called remaining in the EU in everything but name. In fact i would rather remain in the EU then remain in some sort of EEA or EFTA deal (and i am very anti EU and pro brexit).

Remaining in the EEA or EFTA and having an Iceland / Liechtenstein / Norway / Switzerland style brexit deal would be a disaster. This is the worst possible option available. This would be the worst possible option for both the leavers and the remainders because nobody would be happy. These four countries are in the EU in everything but name. They are in reality EU members. They are part of the EEA and EFTA and Schengen and have to follow almost all EU laws and rules and regulations. The only major difference is that they do not get a place in EU parliament meaning that they have to follow laws and rules and regulations that they don't get to vote on or have any say on at all. So in fact these countries are far worse off. If we did this in the UK then the leavers would be unhappy because we wouldn't actually be leaving and the remainers would be unhappy because we would basically be remaining but we would no longer have any say in the policies. I hate the EU and am a big supporter of brexit but even i would prefer to remain then enter in to a Iceland / Liechtenstein / Norway / Switzerland style deal. What we need is a full proper hard no deal brexit where we leave the EU and leave everything associated with it. This means leaving the customs zone and leaving the trade zone and everything like this. This is what we voted for.

I would accept a deal where we would retain full freedom of movement and the right to live and work and study in any other EU/EFTA/EEA country after brexit and in return we entered in to an agreement that allowed all citizens of EU/EFTA/EEA countries to continue to have freedom of movement and have the right to live and work and study in the UK. This would be fine as long as this was it and we left everything else and didn't keep anything else that the EU or EFTA or EEA offers or any of their other policies or laws or rules or regulations.

But remaining in the EEA or EFTA just like Iceland / Liechtenstein / Norway / Switzerland is completely unacceptable and would be a huge betrayal to all of us who voted to leave as we would basically be remaining in the EU in everything but name (and we would even be in a worse position then both fully remaining in the EU and fully leaving the EU). This option should not be allowed to happen.