Are paper tickets really going to disappear?

[_toommm_]

One downside of bog roll/mobile tickets is that people pass barriers far more slowly as the barcodes often don't scan first time. This could be quite a big issue when it comes to clearing Euston platforms 8-11 or similar, and could result in the barriers having to be turned off far more often and so poorer revenue protection.

With the bog roll tickets, though, I don't understand why they have to be so big. They could easily be the same size as regular ones, just like bog roll tickets sold by the likes of DB and SBB are. You just print the barcode a bit smaller.

There would be a justification in their size if they were, for instance, used to list out Permitted Routes in full or a full description of any time restrictions, but they aren't.

I did a test where I folded down a ticket I bought on bog roll, making it into the exact shape of a regular ticket.

How about double sided printing - your regular 'A to B, any route etc.' stuff on the front, and the Aztec code on the back?

 

[apk55]

There are plenty of people who do not have phones and many others who do not have smart phones, and others who do not have internet access. And what happens if you are temporarily without a phone eg nicked/dropped and broken as an example

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

I think that paper tickets will always be available for the National Rail network. If you think about it , how many elderly people, or just people without a phone use the railways every day? More than you think, I'd say. There'll be some clause or something in a railway book somewhere saying that everyone has the right to use the train or something.
However, paper tickets have met their end on London Underground. I think.

It may be worth observing that people haven't been able to pay with cash money on London's buses for several years - it's card payment, concessions or walk. (Are "Carnet" tickets still a thing...?)

 

[PeterC]

It may be worth observing that people haven't been able to pay with cash money on London's buses for several years - it's card payment, concessions or walk. (Are "Carnet" tickets still a thing...?)

You can still use cash indirectly by topping up an Oyster card at a Ticket Stop or at a station.

TfL do not sell carnet tickets for bus or any of their various rail services.

 

[daveshah]

TfL do not sell carnet tickets for bus or any of their various rail services.

I think that bus saver tickets, effectively a carnet, are still available although not available directly to the general public.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can still use cash indirectly by topping up an Oyster card at a Ticket Stop or at a station.

Or purchasing a paper Day Travelcard or Day Bus and Tram Pass.

 

[anme]

I don't like the way that mobile phone tickets put the onus on the passenger (customer?) to provide the means to purchase and display a ticket, plus it's a complex piece of technology to go wrong.

In fairness to the railway, how else could mobile ticketing work? Unless you're suggesting that the railway supplies smartphones to its passengers? Also, the onus is always on the passenger to have the means to purchase a ticket.

I don't think paper tickets will disappear for the foreseeable future, but mobile and other "smart" tickets will become more and more common. It is very convenient to be able to travel without queuing up - and having to allow time to queue up - to buy a ticket, especially at busy times. I used to allow ten minutes in the morning to buy a ticket (for various reasons a continuous season ticket didn't make sense for me). When Oyster was enabled for national rail in London, I had an ten extra minutes in bed or with my family each morning. That was a worthwhile improvement in my quality of life!

 

[Clip]

I think that paper tickets will always be available for the National Rail network. If you think about it , how many elderly people, or just people without a phone use the railways every day? More than you think, I'd say. There'll be some clause or something in a railway book somewhere saying that everyone has the right to use the train or something.
However, paper tickets have met their end on London Underground. I think.

Ahh the 'Elderly' line - though its worth pointing out that what are now the middle aged and using phones will soon be the new elderly and they will know how to use their phone

There are plenty of people who do not have phones and many others who do not have smart phones, and others who do not have internet access. And what happens if you are temporarily without a phone eg nicked/dropped and broken as an example

Same thing as what happens if you lose your card ticket i would hazard a guess

 

[olympus]

Mobile tickets are fine for people who want them; they shouldn't be the only ticket type available (the original post was about paper tickets disappearing).

 

[duffield]

My work provided smartphone had a good battery life when I first got it, after a year it's deteriorated massively (due to various software updates mostly I think, not hardware battery life). I'd be continually anxious about finding a charging point if I was using it to store my ticket. I'd much rather have an unpowered option such as a smartcard - generally quicker to use, less likely to be snatched and no battery to worry about. And if you keep your travel smartcard seperate from (say) your contactless debit card it's very unlikely you'll lose both and end up stranded.
Hopefully smartcards will remain as an option even if cash goes, and then there's no reason that people with no bank accounts or smartphones can't switch to smartcards as long as they can be topped up with cash like Oyster.

 

[6Gman]

If I can't get a paper ticket what am I supposed to use?

(Genuine question - I don't want to use an I-phone.)

I note @duffield suggests a smartcard perhaps. So I go into the booking office, they "zap" my smartcard having taken my money, and then hand it back to me.

How do I know that what's "zapped" on it is what I need? With a paper ticket I can just look at it!

 

[olympus]

How do I know that what's "zapped" on it is what I need? With a paper ticket I can just look at it!

In theory, smart cards could have a piece of electronic paper embedded into them, which is refreshed when the card is read or written to. Such a system would be a huge challenge for the railway to implement, but we are in the 'Speculative Ideas' forum.

 

[A Challenge]

My work provided smartphone had a good battery life when I first got it, after a year it's deteriorated massively (due to various software updates mostly I think, not hardware battery life). I'd be continually anxious about finding a charging point if I was using it to store my ticket. I'd much rather have an unpowered option such as a smartcard - generally quicker to use, less likely to be snatched and no battery to worry about. And if you keep your travel smartcard seperate from (say) your contactless debit card it's very unlikely you'll lose both and end up stranded.
Hopefully smartcards will remain as an option even if cash goes, and then there's no reason that people with no bank accounts or smartphones can't switch to smartcards as long as they can be topped up with cash like Oyster.

It wouldn't happen to by iPhone, I know they have been alleged to have deliberately slowed down and decreased the battery life of old phones with software updates so you would upgrade (I am however, not sure if this was ever proven).

EDIT: it has been proven, see below by @anme and https://www.theguardian.com/technol...g-older-iphones-because-of-flagging-batteries

 

[anme]

It wouldn't happen to by iPhone, I know they have been alleged to have deliberately slowed down and decreased the battery life of old phones with software updates so you would upgrade (I am however, not sure if this was ever proven).

I believe it was proven - see for example https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-samsung-fined-for-slowing-down-phones

This thread shows that increasing the range of ticketing options is the way forward, so that passengers can choose the most convenient option each time they travel. This seems to be the direction of the industry across Europe (although progress is slow and inconsistent in the UK), so we should generally be happy. It's a nice example of life getting better in a small but worthwhile way.

 

[sprunt]

I note @duffield suggests a smartcard perhaps. So I go into the booking office, they "zap" my smartcard having taken my money, and then hand it back to me.

How do I know that what's "zapped" on it is what I need? With a paper ticket I can just look at it!

In my experience - usually purchasing an annual travelcard to be loaded onto an Oyster card - the booking office will give you a receipt, detailing the product that's been loaded onto the card. You can check that.

 

[duffield]

If I can't get a paper ticket what am I supposed to use?

(Genuine question - I don't want to use an I-phone.)

I note @duffield suggests a smartcard perhaps. So I go into the booking office, they "zap" my smartcard having taken my money, and then hand it back to me.

How do I know that what's "zapped" on it is what I need? With a paper ticket I can just look at it!

Amongst other options my local council provides machines dotted around its area of operation which can both load the (multi-operator) travel smartcards and also check them, i.e. I buy my season ticket from the machine, it says it has loaded it, and then if I don't trust it I can remove it and re-present it and it tells me exactly what's on there.

It works very well (however, the machines do not take cash so I'd have to go to the Travel Centre if I wan't to pay cash, so it's not very convenient if you don't have a bank card).

 

[R G NOW.]

It works very well (however, the machines do not take cash so I'd have to go to the Travel Centre if I wan't to pay cash, so it's not very convenient if you don't have a bank card).

Thought everybody had a bank card these days, even students and pensioners, as everybody has to have a bank account to be able to have pensions or benefits paid in. Even if only a basic one.

 

[AndrewE]

Thought everybody had a bank card these days, even students and pensioners, as everybody has to have a bank account to be able to have pensions or benefits paid in. Even if only a basic one.

but how does that help you if there are no paper tickets to buy?

 

[R G NOW.]

but how does that help you if there are no paper tickets to buy?

Do not feel they should do away with paper tickets, as I know I would be stumped if they did. I always walk into Gloucester station and up to the ticket office to get my tickets, then pay by contactless or cash.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Conversely, those of us that buy ‘priv’ tickets have no access to mobile or on-line booking at all.

 

[duffield]

Thought everybody had a bank card these days, even students and pensioners, as everybody has to have a bank account to be able to have pensions or benefits paid in. Even if only a basic one.

Children old enough to travel unaccompanied may not yet have bank accounts.

I also know indirectly of at least one adult who uses cash for everything and does not claim benefits and has no bank account (I believe they are employed and their employer *does* pay their tax and NI, but pays them in cash, so it's not a case of 'they only use cash to avoid taxes'). Unusal but not unknown.

Certain disabilities might preclude use of a bank account but not prevent travel.

Homeless people, probably can't afford to travel by train much but might use some local services or even longer distances by borrowing from friends (e.g. to attend family funeral).

The first of these cases is probably the most numerous. But all these cases need to be though about and addressed unless we are going to just accept excluding significant numbers of people from an increasing number of basic facilities.

 

[OneOffDave]

The ticket type I use most is only available from ticket offices so I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into a mobile ticketing system. This could affect a large number of wheelchair users and if, as a move to mobile ticketing, these classes of tickets were removed from sale it could count as a discriminatory act

 

[d9009alycidon]

A couple of generations and we will all have a chip embedded in us somewhere or retina scanning

 

[anme]

The ticket type I use most is only available from ticket offices so I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into a mobile ticketing system. This could affect a large number of wheelchair users and if, as a move to mobile ticketing, these classes of tickets were removed from sale it could count as a discriminatory act

I know the premise of this thread is that paper tickets might disappear, but please be aware that there are no plans for this to happen and it seems unlikely that it will in foreseeable future - for many of the reasons raised in this thread.

 

[Ken H]

There are plenty of people who do not have phones and many others who do not have smart phones, and others who do not have internet access. And what happens if you are temporarily without a phone eg nicked/dropped and broken as an example

or flat battery....

 

[Belperpete]

or flat battery....

I have not gone for loading my cards onto my mobile, not for security reasons, but because it seems too much a case of putting all your eggs in one basket. Having been mugged a couple of years back, I am all too aware of how incapacitating it can be. If someone stole your mobile phone while you were out shopping, for example, how quickly could you get your accounts stopped? Do you know the numbers to ring? Not much use having them stored on your mobile if it has been stolen! If your cards and cash have been stolen as well, how do you even get home?

 

[Belperpete]

However, paper tickets have met their end on London Underground. I think.

not yet for passengers starting/ending their journey on the national network. I understand that you can't buy m- or e- tickets for such journeys, as they can't be used on the LT gates, so you have to buy a paper (card) ticket.

 

[Clip]

A couple of generations and we will all have a chip embedded in us somewhere or retina scanning

The Swedes are already leading the way in this

 

[Andrew Nelson]

A lot of work went into upgrading the ticket barriers at Bristol Temple Meads (probably other stations as well) to accept the new 'till receipt' style tickets, which don't have magnetic strips.

I don't like the way that mobile phone tickets put the onus on the passenger (customer?) to provide the means to purchase and display a ticket, plus it's a complex piece of technology to go wrong.

You call them "Till Roll", I call them Toilet Roll".

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You can still pay cash for a single on London Underground, comes on a paper ticket.

If they ever got rid of paper tickets on LU, that would put paid to the Tube Challenge.