Sheffield...Any plans?

[class 9]

As a regular XC passenger through Sheffield, the vast majority of delays occur on the approaches from both north and south. From Swinton in the north & from Dore in the south.
Are there any plans to increase track capacity in these areas and/or remodel the station itself?

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a regular XC passenger through Sheffield, the vast majority of delays occur on the approaches from both north and south. From Swinton in the north & from Dore in the south.
Are there any plans to increase track capacity in these areas and/or remodel the station itself?

The Dore remodelling - with double track and hence scope for parallel working for Hope Valley trains - now has statutory consent and should help on the early 2020s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There was potential for some plans to coincide with HS2 at Meadowhall but obviously those have been canned.

It remains to be seen what HS2 will bring to Sheffield other than no extra capacity!

 

[WestRiding]

Sheffield, forgotten in terms of railway schemes. Needs 4 tracking from Dore at the south into Sheffield, and 4 tracking from Brightside to Holmes so that any rubbish stopping at Meadowhall can run on the Slows. Masborogh Loop needs opening again too.

 

[class 9]

Add in Swinton to Aldwarke Jct, trackbed still there.
I find it unbelievable that other than Dore that there's no other improvement plans.
The delay atribution payments to all TOCs must be astranomic.

 

[Senex]

Sheffield, forgotten in terms of railway schemes. Needs 4 tracking from Dore at the south into Sheffield, and 4 tracking from Brightside to Holmes so that any rubbish stopping at Meadowhall can run on the Slows. Masborogh Loop needs opening again too.

In other words restore what the Midland Railway so wisely constructed more than a century ago ...

 

[Modron]

As a regular XC passenger through Sheffield, the vast majority of delays occur on the approaches from both north and south. From Swinton in the north & from Dore in the south.
Are there any plans to increase track capacity in these areas and/or remodel the station itself?

Not that I'm aware of.

A few years back, I recall somebody suggesting that the Chesterfield-Rotherham line which is currently mainly freight only be used by mainline services and a Parkway station built to serve Sheffield with a direct tram to the City Centre.

Not sure how feasible it would be though.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Add in Swinton to Aldwarke Jct, trackbed still there.
I find it unbelievable that other than Dore that there's no other improvement plans.
The delay atribution payments to all TOCs must be astranomic.

Which XC services are you catching? I've been travelling between Derby and Doncaster for the last few months at peak times. With the exception of points failure around Sheffield a couple of weeks ago, I haven't had any noticeable delays to my commute.

Sheffield, forgotten in terms of railway schemes. Needs 4 tracking from Dore at the south into Sheffield, and 4 tracking from Brightside to Holmes so that any rubbish stopping at Meadowhall can run on the Slows. Masborogh Loop needs opening again too.

To my knowledge the majority of trains stop at Meadowhall (Only XC pass through) - So not sure if there would be much value in four tracking there. You're still constrained by the 2-track section to the immediate north of Sheffield

 

[EIKN]

It seems Sheffield, is the ' Forgotten station ' , from childhood trips in the 80's some on old loco hauled ( ever breaking down trains ) I recall a few times since then and also recently sat on an 'XC' service , sat for several minutes, in both directions, or for a few miles before the station , ' stick's .
Behind a slow stopper or frieght movement.
It did get a bit of a refurb by Liebour.
But that to me was more the frontage .
While the fabric of the station and trackwork remains probably ( maybe someone can confirm ) just as it wax during 1980-81 when Older diesel and mark2 compartment trains were the norm and a HST was a rare treat .
( Done both through there , and recall my parents commenting it was supposed to be a high speed train , yet the painfully slow journey from Leeds ruined the experience).
But you have to add Doncaster to this as it's just as bad , and probably has not seen a though make over front I side , track and platforms .
Another depressing run down place .
Like South Yorkshire is the poor cousin to Leeds , which has seen and is yet again getting yet another make over, having had several in the past 30 years .
Also a lobby to see the line from Leeds via Doncaster , Sheffield to Nottingham , Electrified.
( With the hope it would be the catalyst to finish the rest down to Kettering ).
But other approaches need sorted too.
Forget HS2.
We need to really push improvement to our ' classic network'.

 

[Iskra]

It seems Sheffield, is the ' Forgotten station ' , from childhood trips in the 80's some on old loco hauled ( ever breaking down trains ) I recall a few times since then and also recently sat on an 'XC' service , sat for several minutes, in both directions, or for a few miles before the station , ' stick's .
Behind a slow stopper or frieght movement.
It did get a bit of a refurb by Liebour.
But that to me was more the frontage .
While the fabric of the station and trackwork remains probably ( maybe someone can confirm ) just as it wax during 1980-81 when Older diesel and mark2 compartment trains were the norm and a HST was a rare treat .
( Done both through there , and recall my parents commenting it was supposed to be a high speed train , yet the painfully slow journey from Leeds ruined the experience).
But you have to add Doncaster to this as it's just as bad , and probably has not seen a though make over front I side , track and platforms .
Another depressing run down place .
Like South Yorkshire is the poor cousin to Leeds , which has seen and is yet again getting yet another make over, having had several in the past 30 years .
Also a lobby to see the line from Leeds via Doncaster , Sheffield to Nottingham , Electrified.
( With the hope it would be the catalyst to finish the rest down to Kettering ).
But other approaches need sorted too.
Forget HS2.
We need to really push improvement to our ' classic network'.

XC trains have a lot of padding in the timetable, which could explain some of your 'delays,' especially approaching Doncaster.

Sheffield station does need sorting out though. Often slow heading in on the Northern stoppers. Ideally there should be a way to route freight around the station too, as that seems to cause a few issues too.

You are also dreaming if you think these problems don't happen at Leeds. The Sheffield-Leeds Northern services all get stuck outside Leeds waiting for a path in or a platform.

 

[Senex]

XC trains have a lot of padding in the timetable, which could explain some of your 'delays,' especially approaching Doncaster.

Sheffield station does need sorting out though. Often slow heading in on the Northern stoppers. Ideally there should be a way to route freight around the station too, as that seems to cause a few issues too.

You are also dreaming if you think these problems don't happen at Leeds. The Sheffield-Leeds Northern services all get stuck outside Leeds waiting for a path in or a platform.

The net running time from Sheffield to Doncaster seems to be 18 minutes, yet quite a lot of the XC trains seem to have 6 minutes and more extra time allowed on the section, presumably for pathing. There seem to be some similarly extended schedules the other way too. Certainly XC travel over the link between the ECML and the MML always seems wretchedly slow, even though you do seem to end up more or less on time. It's interesting to compare today's XC times with some of the "clean" timetable bookings prepared during the planning for Operation Princess of long ago.

Over 140 years ago Sheffield had both through passenger lines and through goods lines. When you pass through Platform 8 line today you are on the alignment of the up goods. The Midland sorted the south end out very well in the turn-of-the-century widening works, and the company did have plans to quadruple from the station to the start of the then-existing quadding just north of Attercliffe Road, but things like the First World War, and then Grouping, intervened ...

 

[Harpers Tate]

It seems to me, from (admittedly pretty limited) experience, that the main logjam that causes trains to have to stop - and often get late as a result - is not in fact the double track section between Dore and Sheffield, but is Sheffield itself; hanging about just south of the station, awaiting a platfrom (or a route into it, whichever) seems to be common. And as to "rubbish" stopping at Meadowhall - that would be just about everything, then, except for 2x XC per hour and the odd EMT early and late. Padding in XC running times to/from Doncaster seems to be there so as to ensure smooth running in Doncaster itself where there are plenty of opportunities for conflict with local, East Coast, and semi-fasts all needing, in places, to use the same bit of track to get where they are going and again, seemingly short on platforms - or routes into them (whichever).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The approaches north and south are the pinch points, rather than the (by today's standards) inefficient use of space within the station footprint with multiple non-platform lines. With HS2 services now planned to use Midland rather than a new station at Meadowhall/Tinsley, platform space might become an issue though.

 

[Modron]

Going to suggest something a little bit left-field:

Rebuild Rotherham Masborough as an option if Sheffield becomes too crowded?

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and that is of what use to anyone going to
(a) Sheffield or
(b) Rotherham? (not that to is likely; from is far more so!)
or
(c) parking and riding to/from elsewhere, even (no space for a car park).

Better to have built the HS2 station by the motorway at Meadowhall......oh, wait.....

 

[Modron]

...and that is of what use to anyone going to
(a) Sheffield or
(b) Rotherham? (not that to is likely; from is far more so!)
or
(c) parking and riding to/from elsewhere, even (no space for a car park).

Better to have built the HS2 station by the motorway at Meadowhall......oh, wait.....

Exactly.

The HS2 station, as you point out, won't be built at Meadowhall and if Midland struggles with future demand...

Not saying that it was a perfect solution by any means, and a 'Sheffield Parkway' (possibly at Swallownest) is not in the offing for the present time.

 

[DanTrain]

Better to have built the HS2 station by the motorway at Meadowhall......oh, wait.....

Is a station not built to serve the city though rather than the conveniences of the railway? Having to get a 30 minute bus, then change onto a tram, all at some expense, just to get to the station would not prove popular and would severely limit HS2s share of the market!

The approaches north and south are the pinch points, rather than the (by today's standards) inefficient use of space within the station footprint with multiple non-platform lines. With HS2 services now planned to use Midland rather than a new station at Meadowhall/Tinsley, platform space might become an issue though.

Those through lines are used primarily for stabling stock overnight and on Sundays. However, I don’t generally find Sheffield runs out of platform space, the delays at the station almost always attribute to congestion at both throats where it narrows to two tracks more quickly than almost any other major station. Also, both Dore and Meadowhall junctions slow things down, almost every time I catch a train at Dore I’ll see one grind to a halt at the MML signal there...often an XC train too.

 

[Killingworth]

The Dore remodelling - with double track and hence scope for parallel working for Hope Valley trains - now has statutory consent and should help on the early 2020s.

See the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme thread about that. Current best estimate is that won't be ready before December 2022 timetable changes.

HS2b may include a third track from Dore into Sheffield - best estimate 2033.

Don't expect these to be achieved. They've been planning redoubling through Dore since before 2005. That might happen to latest timetable but 2023 is possibly more realistic?

 

[Killingworth]

In other words restore what the Midland Railway so wisely constructed more than a century ago ...

I can't immediately find it but there's a recent video on YouTube of a trip from Piccadilly into Sheffield down the Sheaf Valley.

4 tracking was built about 1900-03 and seems to have been intact until 1969 when all the stations from Sheffield on the mainline were closed, including Dronfield and Dore & Totley (Hope Valley platforms retained). Tracks were lifted and remainng 2 tracks slewed at various times since. Watching that video will show how getting 2 more tracks in is no longer possible without immense expense.

Tesco's opposite Sainsbury's is built on the old trackbed. Bridges have been removed. Much lineside equipment is now on the old alignment. There will be overbridge issues for electrification. That's just some of the reasons why HS2b is only including provision for 3 tracks - even at best.

The Heeley loop is to be lengthened as part of the Hope Valley scheme improvements.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Sheffield, forgotten in terms of railway schemes. Needs 4 tracking from Dore at the south into Sheffield, and 4 tracking from Brightside to Holmes so that any rubbish stopping at Meadowhall can run on the Slows. Masborogh Loop needs opening again too.

How true is this? I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just trying to dig deeper. If it's true, what are the reasons for this, versus, say, Crewe, which seems to get remodelled every two decades. Afthe loss of its 'independence' under the Midland, is it simply a case of being on the wrong end of a vicious circle 'never being quite important enough' after those higher up the list got their upgrades, which induced more traffic and which then needed another priority upgrade 15 years later?

See the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme thread about that. Current best estimate is that won't be ready before December 2022 timetable changes.

HS2b may include a third track from Dore into Sheffield - best estimate 2033.

Don't expect these to be achieved. They've been planning redoubling through Dore since before 2005. That might happen to latest timetable but 2023 is possibly more realistic?

It seems the needs of Sheffield are simply not being addressed, or not lobbied for hard enough. Even the Hope Valley scheme - which seems inadequate in any case for the demands - is being endlessly put back.
Why? Are there too many TOCs involved? Too many local authorities not cooperating? How pro-rail are they - or not pro-rail, as the case may be?
On this fascinating thread, it just seems nobody has been prepared to bite the Sheffield bullet for so many years, and the problems are just getting worse (= more expensive) by the week.

 

[Killingworth]

Just to stir things up, it certainly winds us up in Sheffield when 'the' Transpennine link features in TfN and Network Rail's presentations and spending priorities. It's only 31 Mike's as the crow flies from Sheffield Midland to Manchester Piccadilly.

Unfortunately both the Great Central and Midland Railways created competing routes through hilly terain and through tunnels making both routes over 40 miles. Neither Sheffield Midland nor Sheffield Victoria is in the centre of the city, the commercial and retail centre being up hill.

Bringing the main HS2b line through the central Sheffield area would be a major diversion through heavily built up areas that would add immense costs.

It could never happen, but if there was an infinite pot of money available a straight line, almost level tunnel between Midland and Piccadilly could create a 31 mile HS3 route without any intermediate stations offering journey times of well under 30 minutes. That would put Sheffield and Manchester on the international map as truly linked cities. CrossPeak, TransNorth, Cloud Cuckooland!

However spending vast sums to rebore tunnels on the existing routes with inevitable public inquiries won't get a result that would produce faster journey times and might even cost more!

Yes, there are plans being considered for Sheffield but a close look at both old and current maps with hills, rivers, buildings, and the current rail configuration will show how no improvements will be simple, easy, or cheap.

 

[Modron]

Just to stir things up, it certainly winds us up in Sheffield when 'the' Transpennine link features in TfN and Network Rail's presentations and spending priorities. It's only 31 Mike's as the crow flies from Sheffield Midland to Manchester Piccadilly.

Unfortunately both the Great Central and Midland Railways created competing routes through hilly terain and through tunnels making both routes over 40 miles. Neither Sheffield Midland nor Sheffield Victoria is in the centre of the city, the commercial and retail centre being up hill.

Bringing the main HS2b line through the central Sheffield area would be a major diversion through heavily built up areas that would add immense costs.

It could never happen, but if there was an infinite pot of money available a straight line, almost level tunnel between Midland and Piccadilly could create a 31 mile HS3 route without any intermediate stations offering journey times of well under 30 minutes. That would put Sheffield and Manchester on the international map as truly linked cities. CrossPeak, TransNorth, Cloud Cuckooland!

However spending vast sums to rebore tunnels on the existing routes with inevitable public inquiries won't get a result that would produce faster journey times and might even cost more!

Yes, there are plans being considered for Sheffield but a close look at both old and current maps with hills, rivers, buildings, and the current rail configuration will show how no improvements will be simple, easy, or cheap.

No chance of re-using Woodhead then?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

No chance of re-using Woodhead then?

How would it get to Midland station?

Can it produce a 30-minute journey time?

 

[londonmidland]

From my experience from travelling to/from Sheffield, most of the time, I tend to be most delayed on the Leeds - Nottingham via Barnsley NT service. Often waiting for a path at Meadowhall to cross over and then again waiting outside of Sheffield for a platform.

Booked in at XX:05 but usually delayed by a few minutes. This then delays the XX:11 TPE service to Manchester Airport as both the Nottingham and Manchester Airport services usually leave from platform 6A.

 

[Dr Hoo]

From my experience from travelling to/from Sheffield, most of the time, I tend to be most delayed on the Leeds - Nottingham via Barnsley NT service. Often waiting for a path at Meadowhall to cross over and then again waiting outside of Sheffield for a platform.

Booked in at XX:05 but usually delayed by a few minutes. This then delays the XX:11 TPE service to Manchester Airport as both the Nottingham and Manchester Airport services usually leave from platform 6A.

Which then delays the xx:14 local to the Hope Valley (or it gets put into Heeley Loop for the TPE to precede) so that loses its path over the Dore single line and probably clashes with a northbound train at Dore Station Junction and the disruption rolls on for another hour...

 

[Killingworth]

How would it get to Midland station?

Can it produce a 30-minute journey time?

1. By a reversal, or a very expensive tight turn after demolishing buildings and building bridges or more tunnelling, none of which is realistically practical.

2. After likely restricted speeds and congestion of paths approaching Piccadilly and Midland/Victoria it would have to permit very high speeds, including through new tunnels to achieve that.

However a better option is available in our dreams. Straight, short, level, weather proof and fast. No conflicting junctions or congested tracks.

There have been many suggestions to restore Woodhead. It's about 40 miles involving embankments, cuttings, tunnelling, gradients - and weather. If, and it's a big if, we really want to link Sheffield to its nearest big city neighbour in the shortest practical time a direct tunnel would be the way to do it. Longer than the Channel Tunnel but not the longest in the world.

After all the effort to build the Channel Tunnel and Crossrail I, let alone HS2, it would need a miracle to get this taken seriously, let alone to get it built, but maybe those who are yet to be born may see it started

What would the Stephensons, Brunel and George Hudson have made of today's challenges if they'd seen the technology now available?

 

[Killingworth]

Which then delays the xx:14 local to the Hope Valley (or it gets put into Heeley Loop for the TPE to precede) so that loses its path over the Dore single line and probably clashes with a northbound train at Dore Station Junction and the disruption rolls on for another hour...

Simple way to help that would be to allow stopper up to Dore, new Platform 2, then allow the TPE service to pass through bi-directionally signalled Platform 1 (or vice versa). Stopper then provides on time service to Dore and waits in a platform rather than the loop 3 miles further back. It should then start from Dore closer to the TPE service as it heads towards Totley Tunnel.

 

[Mugby]

Would it be possible to restore quadruple track between the two supermarkets at Millhouses? Is there enough space?

 

[Killingworth]

Would it be possible to restore quadruple track between the two supermarkets at Millhouses? Is there enough space?

No, and even to get in 3 will require quite a slew and be very close to buildings for safety clearances.

Of course demolishing Tesco's and the adjacent buildings to allow full 4 track restoration would be a lot better. The new supermarket could even go over the railway with a station below and a large park and ride facility, but who has the money for that - or the vision?

 

[TheSel]

...

The Heeley loop is to be lengthened as part of the Hope Valley scheme improvements.

Preferably as far as Hazel Grove !!!