Company Loyalty

[Golden Gripper]

In the new issue of Modern Railways the editorial bemoans Lord Adonis for depriving National Express East Anglia of the extention to it's franchise, inspite of the fact that NEEA staff 'met all 52 points that were asked of them'. They continue 'Yet it was still taken away from them as a consequence of what happened on the East Coast, which was nothing at all to do with them. How can managers motivate staff when they get treated like this?' (my italics).

My question is, do rail staff feel any great loyalty to the bus company or whatever who currently run the franchise? If not, where does their main loyalty lie? I would be interested to hear what rail employees on this forum think.

 

[John @ home]

My question is, do rail staff feel any great loyalty to the bus company or whatever who currently run the franchise? If not, where does their main loyalty lie?

I suspect you may get different answers from

1. those at the very top of the train company who tend to be disposed of when a franchise fails or is not renewed,
2. those nearer the bottom of the hierarchy who have seen franchises and non-franchised periods come and go, while they continue to do essentially the same job.

 

[ladydsm]

I think from a Traindrivers point of veiw they dont care who runs the franchise all they care about is their terms and conditions and what hours they work .If they dont like their terms and conditions they will do their upmost to make sure the company fails with the hope that another company will take over and improve things for them.

 

[MrC]

If not, where does their main loyalty lie?

Probably the same as in most other large companies TBH. Your main loyalty and respect tends to be to those people you work with day-to-day (eg other train crew, platform staff, perhaps immediate managers etc). Loyalty to (and respect for) others tends to diminish rapidly the further up the food chain they are. There are exceptions for those individuals who stand out for various reasons but I think loyalty to the company itself is pretty non-existent.

Having said that I suspect people working for the smaller companies may have different views simply because they work closer with (or even alongside) their management and have a better view of what the company is about (eg WSMR, Island Line).

 

[313103]

I am speaking as someone who has seen their role get watered down so much that the role is now a pointless exercise. Therefore i have no loyalty to any train company.

I have worked under British Rail, National Express Group and now DB Regio/MTR.

The reason i have no loyality is that these modern companies tend to have no R E A L interest in you (Not only members of staff but you the fare paying traveling public). They also promise you one thing and deliver something completely different. They also never listen to the staff either. Most companies treat the trade union reps as groups of people whoose aim it is to destroy the company, whilst the T U reps never trust a word of what Management have to say.

So the only answer is NO i have no loyality to a company.

 

[GB]

I come to work on time and do the job to the best of my ability, I work some RD's and if they get really screwed I *may* work the odd annual leave day (providing I am available and at some point and I get it back)...thats about as far as my loyalty goes.

Edit: However having said that, Id say thats more due to my nature than actual loyalty.

 

[delt1c]

It amazes me how National Express can complain about not getting the extension to the franchise, they knew the conditions when they made the bid for east coast so should be grateful they havent lost the other franchises. As an NXEA commuter I do sympathise with the staff as they have worked hard to improve the service and they have sucseeded. However as for higher up I cant see what they have done to improve our travelling. When PRISM had the WAGN franchise they refurbished the 317/6 and the 317/7's, annual season ticket holders got 4 complimentary 1st class tickets for use on their services and punctuality was improving. Now sincw Nat ex took over they have refurbished 315 and 317 mechanically but internally there is very little difference. There was a lot of hype a few years ago that 321 and 317/6 were to be refurbished but havent seen this happening. In fact stanstead Express passengers have had a realy poor deal, premium fares and the luxury of the 317/8.
Ask most comuters for their opinion of Nat Ex , could be an eye opener.First, Anglia and Prism may not have been perfect but they treated their customers better and listened to them.

 

[SWT Driver]

If I could I'd clear off from SWT I would, I'm really ****ed off with the company, the HR departments attitude, the crap work & the attitude that the higher management have towards staff.

The only thing that stops me going is the fact that I'd have to start again from scratch, treated as a newbie, despite the fact that I've got nearly a quarter of a century of driving experience.

 

[theblackwatch]

If I could I'd clear off from SWT I would, I'm really ****ed off with the company, the HR departments attitude, the crap work & the attitude that the higher management have towards staff.

The only thing that stops me going is the fact that I'd have to start again from scratch, treated as a newbie, despite the fact that I've got nearly a quarter of a century of driving experience.

In other words, in the second paragraph you admit you've got it better where you are than if you went elsewhere!

 

[91101]

The franchisees are all transient entities, and like said, most people don't really seem to care who the owning group is, with the exception of when the owning group has done something spectacularly good or bad. Lots and lots of staff miss SeaContainers and had a great sense of pride for what GNER stood for, and saw the onslaught of NationalExpress as a complete affront to this, coupled with their massive cost cutting, particularly with the catering staff.

I work for First group, and I have to admit that I am probably in the minority who really enjoy working for First Group. Our franchise used to be held by another company who were very relaxed in how they used to treat their staff, and how they used to manage operational and customer service standards, and this was reflected in the quality of the service that was delivered to customers. First Group, when they took over, imposed stricter rules and procedures in order to improve the service, a lot of staff don't like it, despite offering a better, more consistent service.

I will say that a lot of people who moan and complain within of a company are usually the type of people who are troublemakers who would rather sit in their platform offices with the TV on and their feet up than actually out and help customers.

 

[SWT Driver]

In other words, in the second paragraph you admit you've got it better where you are than if you went elsewhere!

I just object to the fact that with all of the experience that I have, I would be treated as someone fresh off the street with absolutely zero experience, like I said, all of the folk that I know who've moved to FGW, FLH, FLMM have said it's better.

 

[Aictos]

I come to work on time and do the job to the best of my ability, I work some RD's and if they get really screwed I *may* work the odd annual leave day (providing I am available and at some point and I get it back)...thats about as far as my loyalty goes.

Edit: However having said that, Id say thats more due to my nature than actual loyalty.

Same here, I come to work and work to the best of my ability where possible, working a couple of rest days where possible and where needed come in to help get the job covered to allow colleagues time off for whatever reason.

I volunteer my services purely to keep a form of service going to the passengers and other colleagues, yes the drivers could see themselves away but sometimes it's good to have staff there.

Take Christmas Eve for example, I was travelling to work when I encountered a lady who had got onto the wrong train at Stevenage, so I did my best to comfort her and try to calm her down by walking with her to the taxis at my station and ensuring she got in.

She had no idea where she was as she wanted Welwyn North and not Hertford North but as I explained to her, it's a simple mistake as others tend to want Hatfield by some miracle end up at Hertford North.

Still since the last game of reshuffle your manager that FCC played, the current manager seems to be quite reasonable as long as you get on with your job to the best of your ability she will look after you with a lot of colleagues in the area who worked for her saying that she was a good boss, firm but fair.

 

[moonrakerz]

I suspect you may get different answers from

1. those at the very top of the train company who tend to be disposed of when a franchise fails or is not renewed,
2. those nearer the bottom of the hierarchy who have seen franchises and non-franchised periods come and go, while they continue to do essentially the same job.

That reminds me of something !

"An organisation is like a tree full of monkeys - all on different levels, some climbing up. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but a**holes.
All the time, the monkeys on the top will get the fruits first, and most of the time, they will produce s**t for all the monkeys below. And all the time, that's what the monkeys below will get.
For those monkeys who are climbing up, they have to first kiss plenty of a***s in order to move up. How high they climb, will depend on how good they kiss. And always if a monkey does not kiss any a**, his a** will get kicked !!!
During times of great difficulties and hardship, some monkeys on the top may fall a few branches down and hit the monkeys below. The monkeys below will be fallen upon and will fall off the tree.
And that, my friends, is what we call a corporate lifecycle."

The only thing I would add is that many monkeys at the very top of the trees seem to be able to leap to the upper branches of a similar tree just as their old tree "fails".

 

[Aictos]

I like your analogy on railway management,

 

[GB]

That reminds me of something !

"An organisation is like a tree full of monkeys - all on different levels, some climbing up. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but a**holes.
All the time, the monkeys on the top will get the fruits first, and most of the time, they will produce s**t for all the monkeys below. And all the time, that's what the monkeys below will get.
For those monkeys who are climbing up, they have to first kiss plenty of a***s in order to move up. How high they climb, will depend on how good they kiss. And always if a monkey does not kiss any a**, his a** will get kicked !!!
During times of great difficulties and hardship, some monkeys on the top may fall a few branches down and hit the monkeys below. The monkeys below will be fallen upon and will fall off the tree.
And that, my friends, is what we call a corporate lifecycle."

The only thing I would add is that many monkeys at the very top of the trees seem to be able to leap to the upper branches of a similar tree just as their old tree "fails".

HaHa, we had a poster saying just that in our messroom. Suprisingly it was taken down the next day...only to be put up again a couple of days later

 

[Tom C]

I work for First group, and I have to admit that I am probably in the minority who really enjoy working for First Group. Our franchise used to be held by another company who were very relaxed in how they used to treat their staff, and how they used to manage operational and customer service standards, and this was reflected in the quality of the service that was delivered to customers. First Group, when they took over, imposed stricter rules and procedures in order to improve the service, a lot of staff don't like it, despite offering a better, more consistent service.

I also work for First and again I used to work for the previous holders of the franchise and I cannot tell you how different I feel to how you do!

For a start, our train service has not improved, infact to my mind it has actually got worse since First took over the franchise. The journey times are actually longer than they were under the previous operator simply to "fiddle the figures" on PPM as far as I am concerned as I fail to see why a train needs to sit at a station for 5 minutes if only to add slack to the timetable. The standards to the customer may be masked in the purple and pink haze but its very clear that beyond the haze there is little of substance other than tired excuses and poor communication.

Staff were treated much more fairly under the previous operator and that ment that staff were more amiable to assist the company in difficult situations. Where most staff would help out now a vast majority won't. Beating someone over the head with a stick will not work for very long and First must now understand that morale within the company is terrible. The sad thing ,however, is that if you ask most rail staff across the country the scene is the same.

I will say that a lot of people who moan and complain within of a company are usually the type of people who are troublemakers who would rather sit in their platform offices with the TV on and their feet up than actually out and help customers.

Or more a case of people who won't be fooled by the morons who attempt to teach a grandmother how to suck eggs?. I won't sit back and be fobbed off by someone who came from Marks and Spencer, McDonalds or Argos. Respect amongst managers is something which has to be earnt and there are a handful of managers who I class as worthy of respect.

The only thing that stops me going is the fact that I'd have to start again from scratch, treated as a newbie, despite the fact that I've got nearly a quarter of a century of driving experience.

Thats the only thing that keeps me at First.

I was (and still am) fiercely loyal to my previous employer because as I often say "I never chose to work for First, I was conscripted!".

 

[SWT Driver]

I must admit at the depot where I am now, I have 2 extremely good driver managers, the guards side also has two good ones as well.

We also have some very good ORMs at Woking who get the company out of more trouble than whatever they in Fraggle Rock realise!

It's just a shame that the idiots at Fraggle Rock, don't appreciate the hard work & the large amount of strings that they (ORMs, DM's & GM's) pull to keep things running smoothly, because if it came down to enthusiasm & good will to keep SWT running, well they wouldn't be running anything.

 

[dk1]

In the new issue of Modern Railways the editorial bemoans Lord Adonis for depriving National Express East Anglia of the extention to it's franchise, inspite of the fact that NEEA staff 'met all 52 points that were asked of them'. They continue 'Yet it was still taken away from them as a consequence of what happened on the East Coast, which was nothing at all to do with them. How can managers motivate staff when they get treated like this?' (my italics).

My question is, do rail staff feel any great loyalty to the bus company or whatever who currently run the franchise? If not, where does their main loyalty lie? I would be interested to hear what rail employees on this forum think.

As a member of NXEA traincrew i can assure you i work with nobody who shows any loyalty towards National Express. This also goes for many back room staff. When East Coast was taken back we were all so envious of them. Dont remember such bitterness against GB Railways or First. Must admit ex-WAGN staff seem far more tolerant of NX but maybe thats because they have put up with them much longer.

Most staff show no loyalty to the current franchise holder but just to the Railways as a whole & just want a good joined up national network that works.

 

[Aictos]

Most staff show no loyalty to the current franchise holder but just to the Railways as a whole & just want a good joined up national network that works.

That also seems to be the general position on the GN as well, the majority would agree with your post - myself included but with regards to a national network again despite it being the dreams of many a rail worker, it just won't happen unless by some miracle, the government of the day pushes though rulings to reverse privatisation and renationalise the railways.

On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with First as they pay me to do my job plus offer great travel benefits,

My manager as I said before is firm but fair and does take care of her staff, she's also proactive which is something I've yet to see in any manager...

As to trains sitting at a station for 5 minutes, it does help with the recovery of the timetable as my 2110 could arrive at 2106 which would make it a late arrival as it's booked in at 2059 but as long as it leaves at 2110 then it then makes it a on time service.#

The same probably applies on the Thameslink.

With regards to Tom C, you really ought to visit head office one day to see how the planning team works and what they have to do.

It really is a eyeopener and I fully recommend it, you can learn a lot from the planning side which does give you the chance to see the view from a different angle and not just a bias one from the frontline.

 

[Tom C]

With regards to Tom C, you really ought to visit head office one day to see how the planning team works and what they have to do.

It really is a eyeopener and I fully recommend it, you can learn a lot from the planning side which does give you the chance to see the view from a different angle and not just a bias one from the frontline.

With respect Ajax, I have spent an awful lot of time at HQ under FCC and had quite a lot of dealings with the less well known sections of the company. Those being safety, operations as well as having first hand dealings with organisational changes within commercial and customer service.

If anything I was far more "frontline" under Thameslink than under FCC.

 

[O L Leigh]

I personally don't see the difference between one franchisee and the next. Their motives are the same, as is the way that they treat the staff and the passengers.

I wouldn't say that the former-WAGN side is any better disposed towards NX than the former-Anglia or GE. WAGN may have been part of the happy NX family before the Greater Anglia franchise was let, but it was still just as much of a change on the WA as it was elsewhere.

Where I differ from a lot of my colleagues is that I realise that the demise of NX will not herald a bright new dawn for any of us. I had a good long chat to a LOROL driver at Stratford and he was telling me that the removal of NX in the form of Silverlink was brilliant for all of a week. Then they realised that the new bunch were just as bad. As I said above, precisely who the franchisee is makes little difference to how we will be treated. My loyalty is the the WA division and, as I am no longer enamoured with NX, that is what I identify myself with.

O L Leigh

 

[Tom C]

Their motives are the same, as is the way that they treat the staff and the passengers.

I disagree with you here!

Everytime a new franchise is announced, it seems as if whatever holding company is awarded with the franchise is having to cut back to such a degree that it has a negative effect on both the staff and passengers.

For example, South West Trains, Virgin, South Eastern and FCC are (or already have) trying to make massive cuts in ticket office opening hours. You could read through the pages and pages of threads on tickets and how the TVM machines which are left cannot retail you the ticket you want, you then catch the train without a ticket, come across Johnny Gripper who tries to take £20 out of your pocket because you should have purchased a PERTIS however in the past you could simply purchase your ticket at the ticket office. It makes the passengers feel less safe when the ticket office clerk was the only member of staff whilst making life difficult for the on train staff and the staff at gatelines and it has all stemed from franchises either being totally unflexable or greedy holding companies wanting to cut every last penny from the franchise.

There are now franchises where the on train presence of a guard is up for discussion, we have had catering being slowing being cut back on long journeys and staffing levels being continueously under scrutany.

We all know that this is the future of the franchise unless there is drastic change but down here it seemingly gets worse with every franchise change.

 

[O L Leigh]

Your post shows that you don't disagree with me. We both seem to be saying much the same thing, although you're citing particular examples. My contention is simpy that it doesn't matter who the franchisee is it makes little or no discernable difference, and on that we seem to agree.

O L Leigh

 

[HH]

There seems to be somewhat of a confusion between managers/TOCs and owning groups. Probably very few are loyal to the owners. More may be loyal to their TOC and their managers.

A good manager ought to breed loyalty by the way he/she handles their staff. The same might be said for the owning groups, but although they (probably all) have schemes meant to encourage loyalty, in general their hearts are not in it. They're much more worried about what the markets think, and frequently overrule their local managers with "Head Office knows best" diktats.

That's not to say that there aren't some dreadful managers locally as well, at all levels. But my view is that is the owning group were managing well then they should realise this and do something about it. Not that BR were any better. Just bad in different ways.

 

[dan_atki]

For example, South West Trains, Virgin, South Eastern and FCC are (or already have) trying to make massive cuts in ticket office opening hours. You could read through the pages and pages of threads on tickets and how the TVM machines which are left cannot retail you the ticket you want, you then catch the train without a ticket, come across Johnny Gripper who tries to take £20 out of your pocket because you should have purchased a PERTIS however in the past you could simply purchase your ticket at the ticket office. It makes the passengers feel less safe when the ticket office clerk was the only member of staff whilst making life difficult for the on train staff and the staff at gatelines and it has all stemed from franchises either being totally unflexable or greedy holding companies wanting to cut every last penny from the franchise.

A couple of interesting points raised there. To save the thread going off topic I've replied to them at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29193.

 

[moonrakerz]

Everytime a new franchise is announced, it seems as if whatever holding company is awarded with the franchise is having to cut back to such a degree that it has a negative effect on both the staff and passengers.

I can't really speak for other areas but my own local train service has been a classic example of how the awarding of franchises certainly doesn't seem to benefit the travelling public, who are left scratching their heads and saying: "WHY" ?

When operated by Wessex/Alphaline we had a reasonable service, the trains (158s) had been enlarged from 2 to 3 cars to cope with overcrowding, the trains were in reasonable condition.

Then FGW take over. All the 3 car units vanish, to be replaced by 2 car ones proclaiming "Trans Pennine Express". Within a matter of weeks the service degenerates into a complete shambles. Morning and evening trains are so grossly overcrowded that passengers are left on the platforms. Passengers hold "fare strikes", adverse publicity every night on the local TV news, threats of removing the franchise, etc, etc.

Now, some 3 years later we have 3 car units (already getting overcrowded), trains in reasonable nick and actually sporting the local livery (apart from the odd ATW one !!).

EXACTLY what we had with Wessex/Alphaline !!!!

WHY ? WHY ?

 

[curly42]

I was with Wessex when First came along and played the heavy handed card - the top managers would listen to no one.I was actually told by someone on high "we'll run it exactly the same way as we run the High Speed service".
When it was pointed out that the two operations varied greatly,and would need seperate handling,that person was told,bluntly,to fall in line or get out.
We had many many meetings where we (the Wessex people) pointed out potential problems,to be met each and every time with "our way or no way".Alas,every single problem that we had pointed out came to fruition during the next year or two - requiring a major shake up and a huge input of cash.
I got out as soon as I could.I don't mind working with fools but I object to working for them.

 

[HH]

Typical of "Inter City" managers I'm afraid, although some of the FGW mob have been particularly bad. It's no wonder that they made Andrew Haines ill. They made the same mistakes when they took over Thames.

One thing that made me laugh was that when I looked at their bid they had costed for a laundry service for the Thames "restaurant cars".

 

[SomersetChris]

Where I differ from a lot of my colleagues is that I realise that the demise of NX will not herald a bright new dawn for any of us. I had a good long chat to a LOROL driver at Stratford and he was telling me that the removal of NX in the form of Silverlink was brilliant for all of a week. Then they realised that the new bunch were just as bad. As I said above, precisely who the franchisee is makes little difference to how we will be treated. My loyalty is the the WA division and, as I am no longer enamoured with NX, that is what I identify myself with.

NX was removed from what was Silverlink and then split into LOROL and LM. There is a lot of difference between how the two franchises are run and the moral is very different as well.