Wrong TOC but then wrong ticket issued again...

[BC]

Hello all,

Sadly my first post is about a fare dispute which is probably not ideal but hoping someone can help me out here...

Partner needs to get home from Manchester Victoria to Leeds - in a rush, gets to the station, works the ticket machine after a ticket for travel right now. She picks a journey from Victoria to Leeds, it offers a standard ticket (about £22 she thinks) but says there are cheaper tickets, push the button and there is one listed at £17. So she gets it.

This is a Northern only ticket - it presumably said Northern only, but gave no indication that there were other TOC's running on the line, and that you couldnt use it on them. So despite wanting to travel now, she gets a Norther only ticket, and gets on a Transpennine train.

Conductor points this out, says she should have got a transpennine ticket - she doesnt even know there were two TOC's on this route. So he sells her a new ticket.

Issued by transpennine, and valid only for Northern Trains. Identical to the one that she actually had....

Oh and then the train was cancelled at Huddersfield.

Any suggestions for sorting this out? No objection to actually paying for tickets but to pay the wrong TOC twice and then get delayed on a different company... she cannot claim a refund as she doesnt actually have a ticket for the cancelled train! Is it worth asking Transpennine about issuing the second ticket incorrectly and then asking for the cancelled refund (it will be partial as the journey was about 55 minutes late). Obviously the first ticket from the machine can be returned for a refund as it was unused.

Thanks in advance for reading what is a bit of a long post.

 

[BC]

I've just looked on realtraintime - as far as I can tell there were NO trains scheduled from Manchester Victoria to Leeds at all yesterday by Northern Trains. It was all TPE. What on earth the ticket machine was doing permitting that ticket to be sold is beyond me...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might be impossible to remove them from the machine. It wouldn't however be rocket science to print out a notice stating not to buy them and if you accidentally do to proceed to the ticket office (or write to customer services) for a full refund.

 

[Kite159]

I've just looked on realtraintime - as far as I can tell there were NO trains scheduled from Manchester Victoria to Leeds at all yesterday by Northern Trains. It was all TPE. What on earth the ticket machine was doing permitting that ticket to be sold is beyond me...

Because unlike the machines used by LNER the TVMs used by Northern won't know there isn't any Northern services running on Saturdays due to the ongoing strike activity.

TPE were correct in charging for another ticket, as they probably get chancers buying the cheaper "Northern only" tickets in the hope of a cheaper fare when if they don't get checked by the guard. However what it sounds like the TPE guard made a mistake in issuing a "Northern only" ticket instead of a "Any Permitted".

 

[BC]

However as posted by someone else above, that is contrary to the NRCoT? Also if that were the case, why did they sell the exact same ticket again, rather than the £22 one for TPE?

 

[gray1404]

I would submit both of the tickets for refund. As have both been unused.

 

[BC]

That, whilst tempting would surely be fraud (if only morally if not legally) as one was used albeit on a different TOC with a delay...

Ideally I would expect TPE to admit the error on issuing the on train ticket, agree that it should have been a TPE only ticket and then refund as appropriate for the cancellation.

The Northern ticket I would then submit for a refund on the basis that there were no trains available and I wouldnt expect to be charged an admin fee for that..... Does this sound reasonable?

 

[gray1404]

If that is how you feel then, submit the first ticket that was purchased from the ticket machine for a refund and make sure you stress that it should not have been told so therefore no refund fee should be applied. It should be submitted to whichever train company operates the machine.

Regarding the incorrect ticket sold on board and the delay which occurred. It would be best that you email TPE customer relations and explain that you are claiming delay repay (not a refund, that is different) for a delayed journey. I would point out that the ticket was purchased on board their train and that, although the wrong ticket was sold, it was sold on board their train for travel on their service and that was the fare you paid for the journey (so therefore they have to pay delay repay based on that amount). They may choose to issue a refund based on the fact the wrong ticket was sold but their up to them to come to that decision (or not).

 

[causton]

If that is how you feel then, submit the first ticket that was purchased from the ticket machine for a refund and make sure you stress that it should not have been told so therefore no refund fee should be applied. It should be submitted to whichever train company operates the machine.

Regarding the incorrect ticket sold on board and the delay which occurred. It would be best that you email TPE customer relations and explain that you are claiming delay repay (not a refund, that is different) for a delayed journey. I would point out that the ticket was purchased on board their train and that, although the wrong ticket was sold, it was sold on board their train for travel on their service and that was the fare you paid for the journey (so therefore they have to pay delay repay based on that amount). They may choose to issue a refund based on the fact the wrong ticket was sold but their up to them to come to that decision (or not).

Indeed. I would also send a copy of the first ticket to TPE to clarify why the second ticket was bought on the train just in case.

 

[BC]

I think that the above is whjat we will be doing...

Thanks to all whom have replied with useful comments. I'll keep this updated when I or the other half get a response back from the train companies.

 

[clagmonster]

The first ticket from the TVM was issued correctly. The passenger should have used a rail replacement bus service from Todmorden to Halifax. The last Northern train from Manchester Victoria with Northern connections for Leeds was the 21:18. That said, as the ticket went unused, it can be submitted to Northern for a refund, less a £10 administration fee. A polite letter to customer relations outlining the understandable confusion in operating the ticket vending machine and pointing out the lack of direct Northern services may see the £10 fee waived.

I'd write / email to TPE with the other ticket. Clearly an issuing error, I'd say you should be entitled to at least a partial refund.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hello all,

Sadly my first post is about a fare dispute which is probably not ideal but hoping someone can help me out here...

Partner needs to get home from Manchester Victoria to Leeds - in a rush, gets to the station, works the ticket machine after a ticket for travel right now. She picks a journey from Victoria to Leeds, it offers a standard ticket (about £22 she thinks) but says there are cheaper tickets, push the button and there is one listed at £17. So she gets it.

This is a Northern only ticket - it presumably said Northern only, but gave no indication that there were other TOC's running on the line, and that you couldnt use it on them. So despite wanting to travel now, she gets a Norther only ticket, and gets on a Transpennine train.

Conductor points this out, says she should have got a transpennine ticket - she doesnt even know there were two TOC's on this route. So he sells her a new ticket.

Issued by transpennine, and valid only for Northern Trains. Identical to the one that she actually had....

Oh and then the train was cancelled at Huddersfield.

Any suggestions for sorting this out? No objection to actually paying for tickets but to pay the wrong TOC twice and then get delayed on a different company... she cannot claim a refund as she doesnt actually have a ticket for the cancelled train! Is it worth asking Transpennine about issuing the second ticket incorrectly and then asking for the cancelled refund (it will be partial as the journey was about 55 minutes late). Obviously the first ticket from the machine can be returned for a refund as it was unused.

Thanks in advance for reading what is a bit of a long post.

It is the passenger's resonsibility to ensure that they have a valid ticket for travel and restrictions are advertised at the point of purchase. As both tickets were Northern only, it is very unlikely that you will be eligable for delay repay for a cancelled TransPennine Express train. It is best that you learn from this and ensure you purchase a valid ticket before boarding next time.

 

[bb21]

I will just echo gray1404's suggestion in Post 9 above. I would say you should simply send both tickets to TPE, which incidentally makes it easier for everyone. Chances are that the original ticket was not purchased from one of their machines (we can check for you if you attach an image - or do they operate any machines at Man Vic? - answer to the latter I don't really know but someone may), but even so they should be able to forward the ticket to the machine operator for processing if they so wish.

If you make it clear in your communication that your partner was issued an incorrect ticket onboard, and that the service was 55 minutes late, they have the option of refunding the incorrect fare issued onboard, less half of the correct fare that was due, or more likely just issue the refund and waving the fare due as a goodwill gesture. They may or may not refund the original ticket purchased but in the latter case they should forward it to the relevant machine operator rather than returning it saying it is none of their business.

The original ticket should be refunded without an admin fee being charged, due to the confusion, so make it clear in your complaint. Speaking from a professional capacity handling customer complaints in the industry, and having seen how some of those machines offer the cheaper fares but without explicit mention of the restrictions attached, "misleading" is indeed the word I would use.

 

[Haywain]

do they operate any machines at Man Vic? -

I am 99% certain that all TVMs at Manchester Victoria are operated by Northern, who are the lead operator at the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am 99% certain that all TVMs at Manchester Victoria are operated by Northern, who are the lead operator at the station.

I believe this to be correct as well. They are all of the nasty large-screen variety, whose software is similar to the Scheidt & Bachmann machines but for one important difference - the handling of different routes is appalling and highly confusing.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is the passenger's resonsibility to ensure that they have a valid ticket for travel

Correct.

restrictions are advertised at the point of purchase

Very poorly or not at all, if we're talking about a Northern TVM.

As both tickets were Northern only, it is very unlikely that you will be eligable for delay repay for a cancelled TransPennine Express train

Then perhaps TPE can explain why the appropriate fare for travelling on the "wrong TOC", is yet another Northern only ticket. Hmm, tricky one that! There's nothing they can say that puts them in the right there.

It is best that you learn from this and ensure you purchase a valid ticket before boarding next time.

Let's not harp on about this whilst the TOCs continue to act ridiculously as they have done here. Everyone round here knows they have to have a valid ticket before boarding, but not everyone out there knows it, and even where they do, restrictions are often not clearly indicated.

 

[Starmill]

What a mess. To properly correct the situation would be to submit the ticket bought from the machine to the machine operator for refund, then submit the new ticket to TransPennine Express for refund, ask TransPennine Express for an invoice for the journey, pay the correct fare and then claim delay repay from TransPennine Express. However, this would be horribly impractical and the advice above gives a clearer idea of what can happen. I would expect that if you set it all out to TPE they themselves would come up with a suggestion of how to resolve the matter to the satisfaction of both of you too.

 

[Starmill]

I've just looked on realtraintime - as far as I can tell there were NO trains scheduled from Manchester Victoria to Leeds at all yesterday by Northern Trains. It was all TPE. What on earth the ticket machine was doing permitting that ticket to be sold is beyond me...

This happens all the time. I recently bought a 'Transport for Wales Only' ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Wilmslow. The only problem was, on the day, there were no TfW trains or buses running between Manchester and Wilmslow so the only way to use the ticket was to travel via Crewe, which I did.

 

[_toommm_]

The problem with the Northern ticket machines is that they brand the first screen as 'popular destinations' when it is in fact popular destinations. Take Denby Dale, which lists Sheffield and Huddersfield 2 or 3 times as a popular destination, when they are in fact varying degrees of popular tickets. Combined with the fact that they offer you cheaper tickets with a pop up which may not necessarily be valid at the time you wish to partake in your journey, I feel the Northern TVMs are a bad show.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with the Northern ticket machines is that they brand the first screen as 'popular destinations' when it is in fact popular destinations. Take Denby Dale, which lists Sheffield and Huddersfield 2 or 3 times as a popular destination, when they are in fact varying degrees of popular tickets. Combined with the fact that they offer you cheaper tickets with a pop up which may not necessarily be valid at the time you wish to partake in your journey, I feel the Northern TVMs are a bad show.

Yes, they are utter garbage - they pass the UI off as the S&B one but it has subtle differences (inferiorities).

It really is time for a national standard UI design for all TVMs - other European railways manage it, it's not like they aren't just Windows boxes.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Then perhaps TPE can explain why the appropriate fare for travelling on the "wrong TOC", is yet another Northern only ticket.

I agree, TPE should have issued the correct ticket..the reasons why that ticket was issued, we may never know for sure.

 

[BC]

It is the passenger's resonsibility to ensure that they have a valid ticket for travel and restrictions are advertised at the point of purchase. As both tickets were Northern only, it is very unlikely that you will be eligable for delay repay for a cancelled TransPennine Express train. It is best that you learn from this and ensure you purchase a valid ticket before boarding next time.

Despite buying a ticket from a machine on the platform - which has an appalling interface and guides you to the wrong TOC... and then being sold the wrong ticket on the train by the guard, who you would expect and trust to give you the correct ticket? Thats twice the correct ticket was attempted to be purchased - this isn't some attempt at fare dodging thank you very much.

 

[BC]

What a mess. To properly correct the situation would be to submit the ticket bought from the machine to the machine operator for refund, then submit the new ticket to TransPennine Express for refund, ask TransPennine Express for an invoice for the journey, pay the correct fare and then claim delay repay from TransPennine Express. However, this would be horribly impractical and the advice above gives a clearer idea of what can happen. I would expect that if you set it all out to TPE they themselves would come up with a suggestion of how to resolve the matter to the satisfaction of both of you too.

I've sent photos of both tickets to TPE's enquries email, (I know you are meant to send in a form but that's just going to create lots more confusion if I dont resolve the queries first...), I explained the situation and suggested that an equitable solution is...

1. First "machine" ticket refunded
2. The second "guard" ticket to either.....

a) be refunded and we pay TPE the correct fare less the delay repay amount - so TPE actually collect the money they should have
b) they issue a delay repay refund based on the face value of the train guard issued ticket (which means Northern gets the residue presumably)

I've also asked them in a neutral manner for clarification if they thought she should have been conveyed as no northern trains were running, as per the NRCoT

Will await a response to the email...

 

[_toommm_]

I've sent photos of both tickets to TPE's enquries email, (I know you are meant to send in a form but that's just going to create lots more confusion if I dont resolve the queries first...), I explained the situation and suggested that an equitable solution is...

1. First "machine" ticket refunded
2. The second "guard" ticket to either.....

a) be refunded and we pay TPE the correct fare less the delay repay amount - so TPE actually collect the money they should have
b) they issue a delay repay refund based on the face value of the train guard issued ticket (which means Northern gets the residue presumably)

I've also asked them in a neutral manner for clarification if they thought she should have been conveyed as no northern trains were running, as per the NRCoT

Will await a response to the email...

Unfortunately TPE aren't obliged to carry you with a ticket routed 'Northern Only' unless it's an Advance or if there's disruption other than the strike. This is a quote from TPE, of which the last paragraph is relevant to your case:

If you have an Advance ticket (marked as TPE & connections) for travel on the strike date, where part of your journey requires travelling on a Northern service, either to connect with a TransPennine Express service or to complete your journey, then you may travel on the day before or the day after the strike days without having to make changes to your ticket.

You should attempt to travel as close as possible to your original booked time, but because you are travelling on a different day, your seat reservation will no longer be valid.

Tickets marked 'AP Northern Only' will be accepted on TransPennine Express services on the strike dates only.

This only applies to Advance tickets. If you have any other ticket type then you must travel within the restrictions set out for that ticket.

Tickets marked 'Northern Only' will not be accepted on our services on any dates unless there is disruption which causes cancellation or delay to Northern’s strike-day timetable

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/northern-industrial-action

 

[BC]

There was no strike action - it was the SUNDAY that was the day of travel not the Saturday.... As to why there were no trains running at all I still have no idea - someone mentioned engineering works but there was no notices about them or replacement buses at the station...

 

[_toommm_]

There was no strike action - it was the SUNDAY that was the day of travel not the Saturday.... As to why there were no trains running at all I still have no idea - someone mentioned engineering works but there was no notices about them or replacement buses at the station...

Oops - my apologies. There was engineering work on the Sunday, meaning trains were terminating at Todmorden. From there, a replacement bus took you as far as Halifax, and a train took you to Leeds.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Oops - my apologies. There was engineering work on the Sunday, meaning trains were terminating at Todmorden. From there, a replacement bus took you as far as Halifax, and a train took you to Leeds.

Even if it were a strike day, that's still wrong - if there is no way of complying with your ticket restriction owing to strikes, you are entitled to assistance (i.e. travel) on other operators. What TPE or Northern do or don't say in their publications is irrelevant to this - they can't undermine this fundamental right given in the NRCoT.

 

[_toommm_]

Even if it were a strike day, that's still wrong - if there is no way of complying with your ticket restriction owing to strikes, you are entitled to assistance (i.e. travel) on other operators. What TPE or Northern do or don't say in their publications is irrelevant to this - they can't undermine this fundamental right given in the NRCoT.

So then why doesn't everyone get a Northern Only ticket on a strike day and save a bit of money? Not worth the hassle...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So then why doesn't everyone get a Northern Only ticket on a strike day and save a bit of money? Not worth the hassle...

If they can get hold of one, there's no reason they shouldn't.

Anyway, it's irrelevant now as this weekend ought (fingers crossed) to be the last strike day.

 

[yorkie]

So then why doesn't everyone get a Northern Only ticket on a strike day and save a bit of money? Not worth the hassle...

I've used Northern Only tickets on TPE on strike days with no problems as it was impracticable to do the journey on Northern and there was no suggestion of disruption when/where I bought the ticket.

However from what I've read, without verifying this, it sounds like it was possible to make the journey on Northern on the occasion in question, by using rail replacement buses, so it's a moot point.

Conductor points this out, says she should have got a transpennine ticket - she doesnt even know there were two TOC's on this route. So he sells her a new ticket.

Issued by transpennine, and valid only for Northern Trains. Identical to the one that she actually had....

That is really odd, as that is an incorrect issue and makes no sense.

Oh and then the train was cancelled at Huddersfield.

Any suggestions for sorting this out?

There is insufficient information in the opening post to answer, because you have not specified what happened at Huddersfield. Was the journey completed, with delay? Or was the journey abandoned at Huddersfield and the passenger returned to their origin?