Are paper tickets really going to disappear?

[AndrewE]

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-✠and-✝-and-not-a-sidewards-ϕ.177554/ we have

It should be quite easy for all printers to use that symbol today, but with paper tickets on their way out - slowly - it's probably not worth it.

(sorry, I can't get the official quote to transfer across)
Can paper tickets ever cease to be? If I do not have a fancy mobile phone but I do have cash and want to travel could I ever be refused access to the service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have wondered this. On recent off-peak journeys, I've noticed that something like 75% of people seem to be using mobile tickets. There's been a massive jump in a very short period of time.

 

[Peter C]

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-✠and-✝-and-not-a-sidewards-ϕ.177554/ we have (sorry, I can't get the official quote to transfer across)
Can paper tickets ever cease to be? If I do not have a fancy mobile phone but I do have cash and want to travel could I ever be refused access to the service?

I think that paper tickets will always be available for the National Rail network. If you think about it , how many elderly people, or just people without a phone use the railways every day? More than you think, I'd say. There'll be some clause or something in a railway book somewhere saying that everyone has the right to use the train or something.
However, paper tickets have met their end on London Underground. I think.

 

[Peter C]

I have wondered this. On recent off-peak journeys, I've noticed that something like 75% of people seem to be using mobile tickets. There's been a massive jump in a very short period of time.

On my local line, there are no ticket gates which have mobile phone ticketing functionality. At most of the stations, as they all date from the dinosaur era, there are no gates at all and you can buy a ticket on the train when the office is closed.

 

[Clip]

It will come not now but in the future for sure. If you dont have a compatible phone now they will all be compatible in the future.

It will happen but maybe not in our lifetimes depending on what age you are

 

[trainmania100]

I very rarely get my ticket checked anyway, most of the services I travel on (mostly Thameslink) are driver only operated, it would save lots of money to stop producing them.

 

[yorksrob]

I seem to see a lot of passengers and guards waiving their mobile phones at eachother these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I seem to see a lot of passengers and guards waiving their mobile phones at eachother these days.

The next logical step with these would surely be NFC validation, being more reliable and quicker than scanning barcodes.

 

[AndrewE]

I seem to see a lot of passengers and guards waiving their mobile phones at each other these days.

Probably just waving... but to get back to the point. There was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002b8l

Who is watching you?

Start the Week
Andrew Marr discusses the threats to democracy from technology and populism with Shoshana Zuboff, John Thornhill and Ece Temelkuran.

which explained how Google and Facebook etc harvest data from what they observe you looking at (and then target the adverts which turned out to boost sales by orders of magnitude,) and how Pokemon Go made its money by taking a cut off the venues where its gizmo-finding spots were located.
They were discussing Shoshana Zuboff's book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism and I'm now certain that I am right in keeping my pay-as-you-go simple phone turned off from now on (unless I actually want to make or receive a call.)
Having said that, I do recognise that it has its uses, like Google maps showing traffic congestion by monitoring the movement of other people's phones from one cell to another (as explained on a thread here a year or so ago.)

 

[yorksrob]

The next logical step with these would surely be NFC validation, being more reliable and quicker than scanning barcodes.

Probably just waving... but to get back to the point. There was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002b8l
which explained how Google and Facebook etc harvest data from what they observe you looking at (and then target the adverts which turned out to boost sales by orders of magnitude,) and how Pokemon Go made its money by taking a cut off the venues where its gizmo-finding spots were located.
They were discussing Shoshana Zuboff's book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism and I'm now certain that I am right in keeping my pay-as-you-go simple phone turned off from now on (unless I actually want to make or receive a call.)
Having said that, I do recognise that it has its uses, like Google maps showing traffic congestion by monitoring the movement of other people's phones from one cell to another (as explained on a thread here a year or so ago.)

I just like the old card tickets - they're so reliable and they fit in my wallet !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just like the old card tickets - they're so reliable and they fit in my wallet !

I mainly don't use mobile tickets because purchasing them is such a cack-handed process compared to purchasing a paper ticket at a TVM. The apps need an "expert mode" where I can just enter origin, destination and ticket type with no journey plan required and pay by Apple/Android Pay.

 

[AndrewE]

I just like the old card tickets - they're so reliable and they fit in my wallet !

They make good bookmarks too... And the ones from special or foreign journeys provide nice reminders when you notice them!

 

[yorksrob]

They make good bookmarks too... And the ones from special or foreign journeys provide nice reminders when you notice them!

Indeed !

 

[olympus]

A lot of work went into upgrading the ticket barriers at Bristol Temple Meads (probably other stations as well) to accept the new 'till receipt' style tickets, which don't have magnetic strips.

I don't like the way that mobile phone tickets put the onus on the passenger (customer?) to provide the means to purchase and display a ticket, plus it's a complex piece of technology to go wrong.

 

[Starmill]

However, paper tickets have met their end on London Underground. I think.

You can still pay cash for a single on London Underground, comes on a paper ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of work went into upgrading the ticket barriers at Bristol Temple Meads (probably other stations as well) to accept the new 'till receipt' style tickets, which don't have magnetic strips.

It might have cost a few quid to actually do, but I bet it saves money through reduced use (and eventual removal) of the magstripe readers. Solid state tech is cheaper to maintain.

 

[mark-h]

There are already some tickets not available on paper such as the Scottish super (smart) off peak tickets. I suspect that paper tickets will continue to be available but they will not always be the cheapest option.

 

[Peter C]

You can still pay cash for a single on London Underground, comes on a paper ticket.

Really? I thought that they were long gone now!

 

[yorksrob]

There are already some tickets not available on paper such as the Scottish super (smart) off peak tickets. I suspect that paper tickets will continue to be available but they will not always be the cheapest option.

This is where the untrustworthy lot need to be brought into line.

There ought to be parity of ticketing types IMO.

 

[kje7812]

Really? I thought that they were long gone now!

The self-service machines at Hillingdon definitely still had cash prices as opposed to oyster at christmas time.

 

[Peter C]

The self-service machines at Hillingdon definitely still had cash prices as opposed to oyster at christmas time.

Cool. I think that they probably still have them so that people who don't use Oyster can still travel.

 

[td97]

I mainly don't use mobile tickets because purchasing them is such a cack-handed process compared to purchasing a paper ticket at a TVM.

Absolutely this.
An example of the fragmentation is that I use TPE to book all of my advance journeys, mainly involving TPE+Northern connections. Until recently, no m-tickets were offered full stop for this ticket combination. Very recently (I presume with the TPE website redesign), there is now a m-ticket option for this journey. However, sometimes I take a journey that involves Northern only, but there is no option in the TPE app/website to get a m-ticket for this journey. I have no interest in having an online account with every TOC out there, so I will continue to buy paper tickets for these journeys (and yes, I downright refuse to use the trainline and pay their ridiculous booking fees).

(TLDR: Purchasing m-tickets is a pain when you use multiple TOCs.)

It does irritate me that TOC apps (from the view of an Android user) are borderline hopeless and offer no integration with Google Pay/Assistant/RCS*.

 

[Starmill]

I have seen VT telling people on twitter that booking by messenger is coming, following the launch of booking using Alexa - although that didn't necessarily go so well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen VT telling people on twitter that booking by messenger is coming, following the launch of booking using Alexa - although that didn't necessarily go so well!

I really don't see what anyone sees in typing in a pseudo conversation with a bot over just filling in a few fields on a form.

 

[route101]

Really? I thought that they were long gone now!

Few months ago i seen someone buy one from Euston to Kings x

 

[route101]

Much prefer Paper tickets , we haven't got the receipt tickets in Scotland yet . At Preston i got a Lancashire Day Ranger on the receipt stock , didnt open any barriers and had to fold over to fit in railcard wallet .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much prefer Paper tickets , we haven't got the receipt tickets in Scotland yet . At Preston i got a Lancashire Day Ranger on the receipt stock , didnt open any barriers and had to fold over to fit in railcard wallet .

One downside of bog roll/mobile tickets is that people pass barriers far more slowly as the barcodes often don't scan first time. This could be quite a big issue when it comes to clearing Euston platforms 8-11 or similar, and could result in the barriers having to be turned off far more often and so poorer revenue protection.

With the bog roll tickets, though, I don't understand why they have to be so big. They could easily be the same size as regular ones, just like bog roll tickets sold by the likes of DB and SBB are. You just print the barcode a bit smaller.

There would be a justification in their size if they were, for instance, used to list out Permitted Routes in full or a full description of any time restrictions, but they aren't.

 

[AndrewE]

One downside of bog roll/mobile tickets is that people pass barriers far more slowly as the barcodes often don't scan first time. This could be quite a big issue when it comes to clearing Euston platforms 8-11 or similar, and could result in the barriers having to be turned off far more often and so poorer revenue protection.

With the bog roll tickets, though, I don't understand why they have to be so big. They could easily be the same size as regular ones, just like bog roll tickets sold by the likes of DB and SBB are. You just print the barcode a bit smaller.

Would the print quality resulting from the combination of paper quality and printer be so poor that they wouldn't work at all if they were any smaller?

 

[olympus]

I've had magnetic tickets, especially from the handheld machines, that haven't been written correctly and therefore not accepted by the barriers. As passengers get used to exactly how to hold the barcode against the scanner they may speed up.

 

[AndrewE]

I've had magnetic tickets, especially from the handheld machines, that haven't been written correctly and therefore not accepted by the barriers. As passengers get used to exactly how to hold the barcode against the scanner they may speed up.

I don't see how this addresses the problem of "magnetic tickets, especially from the handheld machines, that haven't been written correctly" i.e faulty production.