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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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dgl

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So far Nissan themselves have refused to confirm or deny this rumour.

You may well be correct but I can find no concrete evidence. If only a few diesels are to be built because of the collapse of the diesel market, it would make sense to build them at the petrol engined plant which is elsewhere.

Now been confirmed by a letter from Nissan to it's employees, now vehicles will be made in Japan, Brexit being cited as the cause.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

BBC said:
Nissan has confirmed that the new X-Trail originally planned for its Sunderland plant will instead be made in Japan.

In a letter to workers, the firm says continued Brexit uncertainty is not helping it to "plan for the future".

In 2016 the carmaker said it would build the new car in the UK after "assurances" from the government.

The government said the move was "a blow to the sector and the region" but that no jobs would go.

Nissan has made cars at Sunderland since 1986 and employs almost 7,000 people.

Nissan said: "The company has decided to optimise its investments in Europe by consolidating X-Trail production in Kyushu, the production hub for this global model.

"While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK's future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."

As for new diesels being built, in the commercial vehicle and 4x4 market diesel is still very much king plus due to it's economy and torque characteristics I can only see petrol vehicles being viable for smaller commercial vehicles, or electric for shorter interurban use (esp. in the 4X4 market as for true off-roading you would want extra fuel supplies on board, something not really possible with electric vehicles).
That's not to say that some countries do use petrol engines in larger vehicles (America being the main user) though it's not something that is generally seen as a good thing in most countries, and as such would take a lot of work to convert people/businesses.
 
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furnessvale

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Now been confirmed by a letter from Nissan to it's employees, now vehicles will be made in Japan, Brexit being cited as the cause.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
The BBC actually says that uncertainty surrounding Brexit does not help, which must indeed be the case. There IS a case for giving industry certainty so it can plan. However, that is a far cry from "Brexit being cited as the cause".

Firstly, I do not trust the BBC to impartially report anything about Brexit.

Secondly, if the cause is Brexit, and only Brexit, why is production being resited to Japan and not another EU country. As always the true reasons are shrouded in corporate speak.

Sales of DIESEL X-Trails have plummeted and a complete factory dedicated to a diesel X-Trail is now a non starter. Far better to build the few diesel X-Trails that will be required in the existing petrol plant in Japan. This move is assisted by the recent free trade agreement between the EU and Japan which means that Japan will have no need to build anything inside the EU in future. This renders Brexit irrelevant in this matter and the EU can expect more of the same in the future as Japan closes satellites and retrenches to home if required.

Finally the intended engine for this car was to have been a Renault diesel. The problem is that it does not meet, and doesn't seem likely to meet, new emission standards. As I mentioned in #14992, all Renault needed to do was consult the oh so environmentally conscious Germans who would have sold them 50p computer chips to solve the problems of a dirty diesel engine.
 

EM2

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Firstly, I do not trust the BBC to impartially report anything about Brexit.
They've directly quoted Nissan's Europe chairman.
Secondly, if the cause is Brexit, and only Brexit, why is production being resited to Japan and not another EU country. As always the true reasons are shrouded in corporate speak.
Surely this question is answered by:
This move is assisted by the recent free trade agreement between the EU and Japan which means that Japan will have no need to build anything inside the EU in future.
?
 

R G NOW.

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Did I hear this correctly?. I thought I heard last week that Teresa May, must have a new deal by Monday the 4th, otherwise we could get a no deal Brexit.
 

furnessvale

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They've directly quoted Nissan's Europe chairman.

Surely this question is answered by:

"This move is assisted by the recent free trade agreement between the EU and Japan which means that Japan will have no need to build anything inside the EU in future."

?
Indeed, if that is the answer then It matters not one iota that the UK is in or out of the EU, the move would have happened anyway, and once again, it is nothing to do with Brexit.
 

EM2

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https://news.sky.com/story/leaving-eu-without-a-deal-is-survivable-liam-fox-11627019
Leaving EU without a deal is 'survivable' - Liam Fox
Liam Fox has said leaving the European Union without a deal will be "survivable".

The international trade secretary told Sophy Ridge on Sunday that it would not be in Britain's best interest to leave without a deal in place with the European Union, and admitted it could put the economy "into a position of unnecessary turmoil".


He said: "We would be able to deal with that scenario but it wouldn't be in our interest to go there.

"It seems to me we have got to guard against two things. One is an irrational pessimism that says that everything will be a catastrophe and irrational optimism which says everything will be okay.

"The truth lies between the two."

But he cautioned against relying on World Trade Organisation terms, which is what Britain will revert to trading on if no deal is reached.

He said: "If WTO was so good people wouldn't be looking to have trade agreements or customs unions which are ways in which you can further improve on those WTO rules.

"It has always seemed to me a bit strange that people would say 'well we don't need to worry about having a future trade deal with Europe, we can operate on WTO terms', while at the same time saying we should have a free trade agreement with the United States to get away from WTO rules. We have to be consistent."

The minister appeared to back a scenario where Article 50 had to be extended, saying it could be needed to ensure legislation goes through in time.

However, he said the clause which triggered the UK's withdrawal from the EU - giving the country two years to negotiate an exit deal - should not be extended if there is no deal in place.

He said: "To extend simply because we hadn't reached an agreement would not provide any impetus for that agreement to be reached and in any case, there is no guarantee the EU would want to do that."

Dr Fox's comments came shortly before Home Secretary Sajid Javid appeared to contradict comments from other cabinet ministers and suggested a technological solution to the hard border on the island of Ireland was easy to find.

Mr Javid told the BBC's The Andrew Marr Show: "What matters is legislation - we are planning to leave on March 29 and I want that to be with a deal.

"First we must try to find an alternative to the backstop.

"In my own department I have got Border Force and I asked Border Force months ago to advise me to look at what alternative arrangements were possible.

"They have shown me quite clearly you can have no hard border on the island of Ireland and you can use existing technology.

"It is perfectly possible, the only thing missing is a bit of goodwill on the EU side."

Earlier this week, Business Secretary Greg Clark said he did not believe technology to facilitate a soft border existed yet.

Theresa May is to travel back to Brussels this week having secured a mandate from the Commons to get an alternative arrangement to the backstop to prevent a hard border in Ireland.

Leaders in the EU have previously warned that there is no alternative arrangement to the border problem on the island of Ireland, but Mr Javid said there would be alternative arrangements in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

He said: "Michel Barnier himself said, if there is a no-deal situation, that the EU will help create alternative arrangements for the border.

"And if they can do it in a 'no deal' scenario, why can't they do it in a deal scenario? So there's your answer and that is why I think the most likely outcome is still a deal."

Heiko Maas, Germany's foreign minister, said they would be seeking "clear proposals from London" and rejected the idea that the EU was increasing the risk of a no-deal Brexit.

Mrs May pledged to battle for Britain in a column in the Sunday Telegraph but she faces new pressure after Nissan confirmed it would withdraw its plans to manufacture the X-Trail SUV in Sunderland.

The car firm's plans had been considered a boost to Brexit Britain, but the withdrawal will be leapt on by Remain MPs who will use it to heap pressure on the prime minister to avoid a no-deal Brexit.

Julie Elliott, Sunderland Central MP, said tens of thousands of jobs relied on Nissan and other forms of production in the North East and despite her constituency voting to leave the EU there was "nothing to convince me that crashing out with no deal will benefit us".

Rumours of a general election being held in June were quashed by Mr Javid, who said Conservative Party headquarters were only planning for local elections later this year.

He added: "I think the last thing this country needs is a general election. I think the people will never forgive us for it, what they want is this parliament to deliver Brexit in an orderly way, that is what they are looking for."

Mrs May also faces continuing calls for a second referendum, dubbed a People's Vote, with MPs in several parties urging her to consider taking the deal back to the public to be voted on.

The prime minister has repeatedly refused to hold another vote, but Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable said it was not a "unicorn", adding it was a "question of timing".

He said: "Parliament is going to reject no deal.

"We may get to a point, a few weeks from here, where the government comes to the conclusion that the only way to get the deal to progress is to take it back to the people."

So we've gone from 'a free trade deal with the EU should be the "easiest in human history" ', to 'leaving without a deal is survivable'.
 

AM9

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dgl

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Survivable does not sound good, I.e. you can live on the streets and still survive but it's not a nice way to live and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Also I think that because most MP's won't be that badly affected by Brexit (and some making money off it) they don't necessarily see just how bad it will be for the man on the street and in the case of JRM and his ilk don't give a damn.
 

Clip

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And the bankers dissapearing still hasnt happenned like it was forecast to have done by now
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...XtBWn2sLW8ZJ-RHqHPBwNjyIebtJ5kbp7NXIxThIdVthw

LONDON/FRANKFURT (Reuters) - In Frankfurt and Paris, the flood of banking jobs predicted to arrive after Brexit is, for now, little more than a trickle.


The financial district with the headquarters of Germany's largest business bank, Deutsche Bank (C), is photographed on early evening in Frankfurt, Germany, January 29, 2019. REUTERS/Kai Pfaffenbach
An analysis of job postings on eight of the world’s major investment bank websites show a modest push to recruit staff in other European cities but little to suggest London is set for a rapid demise as the region’s top banking hub.

Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America/Merrill Lynch, UBS, Credit Suisse and Deutsche Bank are seeking to fill 1,545 new roles in Britain, numbers up to January 22 show.

In Germany and France - the two countries predicted to see the biggest influx of financial services from Britain as a result of Brexit - just 301 roles have been listed.

Only Deutsche Bank is looking to hire more people in Germany than in Britain, with 133 German vacancies posted online compared to 132 in the UK.

“It isn’t really a tsunami of hires,” said Christine Kuhl, a partner with executive placement firm Odgers Berndtson in Frankfurt.

SPONSORED



ADVERTISING
The figures do not capture numbers of existing employees who might relocate from London to other EU offices under contingency plans following Britain’s exit from the European Union (EU) or roles that are not publicly advertised.

But they are forward-looking indicators of how each bank is looking to remodel their European workforce over the coming months in the face of Brexit, and suggest banks are only making modest tweaks as Britain’s EU departure approaches on March 29.

“Culturally, Paris is French, Frankfurt is German but London is international. The Americans - who own this industry - want to operate in an English speaking environment. No one wants to go,” said Martin Armstrong, partner at headhunting firm Armstrong International.

Other recruitment specialists reported few signs of banks preparing to bulk up in a hurry, even if Britain has to leave the EU without a deal covering financial services.

The small number of moves to date have followed many months of consultations and negotiations, the headhunters said, with banks keen to avoid relocations which might prove premature or even unnecessary.

“It can be done, but we are talking months, possibly longer if there are families involved,” said James Murray, a director at search firm Robert Walters.


“That said, if risk takers do start to move elsewhere than that is where we could start to see real movement in terms of jobs. When the risk takers move, then surely the risk managers move, and so on,” he added.

HOMEWORK
Search firm Korn Ferry set up a Brexit task force after Britons voted in 2016 to leave the EU and met regularly to prepare for a mass transfer of talent from London to Frankfurt. But the influx hasn’t happened.

One senior banker who is making the move to Frankfurt is Christoph Seibel. Seibel, a German national, left the city in 1993 to go to business school in the United States and then pursue a career in London.

Mizuho poached him from RBC Capital Markets in London to become CEO of the bank’s newly headquartered EU operations in Frankfurt. He takes up the new post on March 28.

Mizuho is one of 45 financial firms that Germany’s financial regulator Bafin says are setting up Frankfurt hubs after Brexit.

But moves like Seibel’s are few and far between, with activity to date well short of the 6,000 financial jobs lobby group Frankfurt Main Finance previously expected to move to Germany’s largest financial hub in the event of a hard Brexit.


Slideshow (5 Images)
Seven leading executive search firms contacted by Reuters reported few offerings for leadership roles in Frankfurt as uncertainty about Britain’s future trading relationship with the bloc continues.

Some banks are nevertheless betting on London to retain the balance of power over rival centers in the EU, opting to base top executives and keep their European headquarters in London - for the time being at least.

Citi’s new EMEA Chief Executive David Livingstone will be based in the UK capital, as will HSBC’s newly appointed global markets boss Georges Elhedery, who will relocate from Dubai to London to take up the job two weeks before Brexit.

Goldman Sachs has recently expanded the role of London-based Richard Gnodde to head of the bank’s international operations while Morgan Stanley has appointed Clare Woodman to head up its EMEA business - also from London.

(Graphic: Britain still top spot for investment banking job ads - tmsnrt.rs/2TjKgsg)

FAST-TRACK

For now at least, head hunters say London is winning the war to retain its talent, undermining Germany’s ‘Bankfurt’ ambitions or President Emmanuel Macron’s push to swell the Paris finance industry at London’s expense.

U.S. hiring surges despite government shutdown
Goldman Sachs for example, which is making Frankfurt its EU hub after Brexit, is looking for just 15 roles in Germany’s financial center with most of them in compliance, tax, legal, risk management or operations.

By contrast, the bank has 190 jobs advertised in Britain including I.T., compliance, human resources, as well as corporate & investment banking roles.

And with the market for permanent roles seen in rude health, persuading London-based bankers to move is no easy task, with handsome pay packages and better promotion prospects central to the negotiations.

“People say: ‘talk to me about jobs in Asia first, then Dublin, then Frankfurt, then Paris’ – in that order. People want big upticks and guaranteed bonuses as standard,” Darren Burns, operations director at headhunter Morgan McKinley, said.

“There’s a feeling if you move to Dublin as a director now, you could be managing director in three years, whereas in Frankfurt, there is already too much competition for the top roles. The local talent is already your boss or your boss’s boss.”

As banks automate more processes to cut costs, they are also recruiting more in countries where they can hire skilled workers in areas such as technology and risk management at a fraction of the cost seen in Western financial centers.

After Britain, the second hottest jobs market in Europe is Poland, where 878 posts are up for grabs across Warsaw, Krakow and Wroclaw.


Citi and Credit Suisse have advertised 531 roles in Poland between them, compared with an aggregated 36 posts in Germany and 8 jobs in France.

Morgan Stanley has 49 vacancies in Budapest, where it opened in 2006 and now employs more than 1,300 people.

“The biggest banks have been nearshoring and offshoring roles from their most expensive centers for the best part of 15 years now, entirely unrelated to Brexit,” Murray said.

“If they still have jobs in London, it’s because they genuinely need or want those jobs to be in London.”
 

EM2

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Survivable does not sound good, I.e. you can live on the streets and still survive but it's not a nice way to live and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Exactly. Getting shot, getting stabbed, getting run over, getting repeatedly punched in the face are all 'survivable'. Can't say that I'm keen to have them happen to me though.
 

AM9

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Survivable does not sound good, I.e. you can live on the streets and still survive but it's not a nice way to live and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Also I think that because most MP's won't be that badly affected by Brexit (and some making money off it) they don't necessarily see just how bad it will be for the man on the street and in the case of JRM and his ilk don't give a damn.
That's the morals of most of the senior leavers, they keep prattling about 'opportunities', just like spivs in wartime they are pure speculators.
 

HH

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I've survived everything else successive incompetent governments have thrown at me, so I expect to survive Brexit as well.

My ambition is set a little higher than mere survival though and I expect Liam Fox's is as well - it's just that loads of money can cushion a fall rather well. I'd like to take away all that money and then see how keen he was on survivable. From the Daily Mail in 2010:
Dr Fox is another Cabinet Minister who has benefited from the two-home life lived by many MPs, owning a Central London property and a large house in Somerset which combined are worth £1million.
With another 9 years of property rises, they'll be worth a lot more now, and that's without any other assets.
 

Cowley

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I've survived everything else successive incompetent governments have thrown at me, so I expect to survive Brexit as well.

My ambition is set a little higher than mere survival though and I expect Liam Fox's is as well - it's just that loads of money can cushion a fall rather well. I'd like to take away all that money and then see how keen he was on survivable. From the Daily Mail in 2010:

With another 9 years of property rises, they'll be worth a lot more now, and that's without any other assets.
Definitely. If he sold his 'Central London' property now he could probably buy a small village in Somerset.
 

Groningen

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Well maybe the British can built a car solely made of British goods and solely for the British market.
 

Groningen

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I remember Watchdog with Robinson that there was carindustry in Dagenham. On Wikipedia i see it was Ford and it closed down in 2013.
 

dgl

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It was called the Austin Allegro.
Nah, it was called British Leyland. Many stupid design choices combined with (mostly) abysmal styling and build quality (or so I am told).
Take the Triumph Stag, looked good enough, supposedly drove well enough but rather than use the Buick/Rover V8 (which given rover was part of BL they could have),they instead used what was essentially 2 dolly sprite engines bolted together, result incredibly un-reliable and as such made an otherwise good car a lemon.
Also let's not forget about rusting Metro's and the later Metro offspring, the Rover 100, being deadly even in a low speed crash.

As for current UK car manufacturing we have (roughly):
Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mini, Vauxhall and Jaguar Land Rover making mass market cars.
Ford making engines.
Bently and Rolls Royce making high end luxury vehicles.
LEV/LTI (Geely) making London taxis.
Leyland, Optare, Wrightbus, Alexander Dennis, JCB Etc. making commercial vehicles.
and various sports car manufacturers (TVR, Lotus, Morgan, Ariel Ect.). Plus a good proportion of F1 teams are based here.
 

Clip

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Nah, it was called British Leyland. Many stupid design choices combined with (mostly) abysmal styling and build quality (or so I am told).
Take the Triumph Stag, looked good enough, supposedly drove well enough but rather than use the Buick/Rover V8 (which given rover was part of BL they could have),they instead used what was essentially 2 dolly sprite engines bolted together, result incredibly un-reliable and as such made an otherwise good car a lemon.
Also let's not forget about rusting Metro's and the later Metro offspring, the Rover 100, being deadly even in a low speed crash.

As for current UK car manufacturing we have (roughly):
Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mini, Vauxhall and Jaguar Land Rover making mass market cars.
Ford making engines.
Bently and Rolls Royce making high end luxury vehicles.
LEV/LTI (Geely) making London taxis.
Leyland, Optare, Wrightbus, Alexander Dennis, JCB Etc. making commercial vehicles.
and various sports car manufacturers (TVR, Lotus, Morgan, Ariel Ect.). Plus a good proportion of F1 teams are based here.

Hold on you can not report normal facts on this thread :D
 

AM9

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Nah, it was called British Leyland. Many stupid design choices combined with (mostly) abysmal styling and build quality (or so I am told).
Take the Triumph Stag, looked good enough, supposedly drove well enough but rather than use the Buick/Rover V8 (which given rover was part of BL they could have),they instead used what was essentially 2 dolly sprite engines bolted together, result incredibly un-reliable and as such made an otherwise good car a lemon.
Also let's not forget about rusting Metro's and the later Metro offspring, the Rover 100, being deadly even in a low speed crash.

As for current UK car manufacturing we have (roughly):
Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mini, Vauxhall and Jaguar Land Rover making mass market cars.
Ford making engines.
Bently and Rolls Royce making high end luxury vehicles.
LEV/LTI (Geely) making London taxis.
Leyland, Optare, Wrightbus, Alexander Dennis, JCB Etc. making commercial vehicles.
and various sports car manufacturers (TVR, Lotus, Morgan, Ariel Ect.). Plus a good proportion of F1 teams are based here.
And how many of those have their head office in the UK?
 

whhistle

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The one thing I don't understand is the amount of people who are "woe is us" and acting like the world is coming to and end. Really, it's not. Wallowing in the loss of EU membership isn't going to change anything, so may as well accept it and try to see how it could be positive. Because you're darn good at seeing the negatives. And there are positives.

It's the fact nobody knows what will happen, yet people have already decided it's the worst thing that can happen to us as a country. I mean, please... tell me next weeks lottery numbers while you're at it!

If people are so desperate to be in the EU there is a choice.
Leave the UK.
Sounds stupid but it's not.
It's just the hassle factor of leaving the UK is more than the advantages of being in the EU.
Or perhaps the draw of being in the UK is worth more than being in the EU. If so, you [/b]must[/b] accept the will of the country... because that's what our country voted for, despite you personally thinking (because rmeember, nobody knows what will happen in 12 months time) it has voted wrong.
 

whhistle

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So they'd lose some money and we'd lose our food supply? That sounds like we need them more.
They'd lose a lot of money! And then have to sell their food very cheap, because there would be lots more of it. That would throw all their economics out.

Despite having a lot of food from EU countries, it's not like we're going to starve. Come on. Withholding food supplies would be political disaster for the EU. The talk about needing to eat tinned food for years is just headline grabbing.



No Deal has always been an option. Activate Article 50, wait two years, leave. Done.
We didn't do it because it's a bad idea.
Err, apart from the financial commitments we'd already signed up to, and who knows how many others we were in the process of.

It's a bad idea yes, but unless we're serious about following through, at both the EU's expense AND ours, the EU will always have us over a barrel with demands.
 

yorkie

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... because that's what our country voted for, despite you personally thinking (because rmeember, nobody knows what will happen in 12 months time) it has voted wrong.
Did people really vote for a no deal Brexit? Did people understand the implications of that vote?

Your argument is incoherent and non existent. Basically "it might not be bad because ... No reason, it just might not be bad". Erm, okay...
 

gysev

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If people are so desperate to be in the EU there is a choice.
Leave the UK.
Sounds stupid but it's not.

In 2017, 1390 British citizens became Belgian. In 2018 this figure more than doubled. I guess the same happened in Germany, the Netherlands etc. That is without the people who claimed an Irish passport as an emergency exit.
 

EM2

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. And there are positives.
Such as?
If people are so desperate to be in the EU there is a choice.
Leave the UK.
And if you don't have that choice? For example, relatives that need care, or a specialised career?
If so, you [/b]must[/b] accept the will of the country... because that's what our country voted for, despite you personally thinking (because rmeember, nobody knows what will happen in 12 months time) it has voted wrong.
We're leaving. I accept that. But to put in ridiculous red lines, that hamstring our negotiations and force us into deals that bring no benefit to the country, when that was NOT on the ballot paper, that I don't accept.
 

VauxhallandI

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The one thing I don't understand is the amount of people who are "woe is us" and acting like the world is coming to and end. Really, it's not. Wallowing in the loss of EU membership isn't going to change anything, so may as well accept it and try to see how it could be positive. Because you're darn good at seeing the negatives. And there are positives.

It's the fact nobody knows what will happen, yet people have already decided it's the worst thing that can happen to us as a country. I mean, please... tell me next weeks lottery numbers while you're at it!

If people are so desperate to be in the EU there is a choice.
Leave the UK.
Sounds stupid but it's not.
It's just the hassle factor of leaving the UK is more than the advantages of being in the EU.
Or perhaps the draw of being in the UK is worth more than being in the EU. If so, you [/b]must[/b] accept the will of the country... because that's what our country voted for, despite you personally thinking (because rmeember, nobody knows what will happen in 12 months time) it has voted wrong.

Just another ostrich post.

You're not helping with planning for this and I doubt you'll be any use when it does happen but thanks for the pointless statement of whimsical wishes.
 

nidave

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Further analysis shows that the vehicle in question is the DIESEL version of the X-Trail and the market for this has absolutely collapsed. With or without Brexit this particular investment was going to hit the buffers.
Pre-2016: "F*cking EU!"
Post-2016: "Ah yes well, this was actually always inevitable given flagging demand in China, emerging consumer preferences for petrol vehicles, Mercury's position in the firmament and the Prophecies of Xalamak the Blind."

Secondly, if the cause is Brexit, and only Brexit, why is production being resited to Japan and not another EU country. As always the true reasons are shrouded in corporate speak.
Could it be the free trade deal signed with the EU and Japan so its zero tarrifs.
 
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Senex

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Or perhaps the draw of being in the UK is worth more than being in the EU. If so, you [/b]must[/b] accept the will of the country... because that's what our country voted for, despite you personally thinking (because rmeember, nobody knows what will happen in 12 months time) it has voted wrong.
Well, for me age precludes emigrating, but if I were starting my working life I'd certainly want to leave. As for "the will of the country", I'd be fascinated (if I could be there) to see what future historians of today's events make of a decision being claimed as "the will of the country" on the basis of the figures of the 2016 referendum.
 
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