Why is the Thameslink Core So Slow?

[AM9]

Thameslink "feels" slow when you use it. As somebody who is obliged to drive in London from time to time 15mph is a pretty good speed between London Bridge and St Pancras.

It may feel slow but as has been made clear here, it isn't slow with its 1 minute scheduled dwells, and consistent progress in line with linespeeds. When the class 700s first started running, it seemed slower because there were longer dwells at St Pancras and Blackfriars for time recovery. Now many more of the paths are in use, there is no room to have more than the minimum time spent sitting anywhere in the core and recovery time is on the approaches to the core, i.e. between Kentish Town/Finsbury Park area and St Pancras and Elephant & Castle/London Bridge area and Blackfriars.

 

[bramling]

It may feel slow but as has been made clear here, it isn't slow with its 1 minute scheduled dwells, and consistent progress in line with linespeeds. When the class 700s first started running, it seemed slower because there were longer dwells at St Pancras and Blackfriars for time recovery. Now many more of the paths are in use, there is no room to have more than the minimum time spent sitting anywhere in the core and recovery time is on the approaches to the core, i.e. between Kentish Town/Finsbury Park area and St Pancras and Elephant & Castle/London Bridge area and Blackfriars.

Slow in the core or otherwise, in 1997 an off-peak King’s Cross to Hitchin journey was scheduled to take 29 minutes, whereas in 2019 the same St Pancras to Hitchin journey is scheduled to take 34 minutes. A journey from London to Knebworth compares even worse.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It may feel slow but as has been made clear here, it isn't slow with its 1 minute scheduled dwells, and consistent progress in line with linespeeds. When the class 700s first started running, it seemed slower because there were longer dwells at St Pancras and Blackfriars for time recovery. Now many more of the paths are in use, there is no room to have more than the minimum time spent sitting anywhere in the core and recovery time is on the approaches to the core, i.e. between Kentish Town/Finsbury Park area and St Pancras and Elephant & Castle/London Bridge area and Blackfriars.

Just to be clear, my assertion in the first post in this thread that Thameslink was slow was not based on any perception of how fast the trains feel like they are going (which is obviously an unreliable indicator) but on the published scheduled timings between St Pancras and London Bridge, and comparison with the timings TfL shows for the Northern line between the same places (Well, OK, Kings Cross, not St Pancras for the Northern line).

 

[James H]

A further argument for showing the Thameslink core on the Tube map is that fares are charged on the Tube fare scale.

 

[BRX]

It's true that it does *feel* slow through the central section but I think that's just down to the speed you get accustomed to expecting on main line stock...in the same way that a northern line train going at 60mph would probably *feel* more like 100.

 

[jhy44]

Seems a shame. There's clearly a need to get people off the Northern Line because it's so crowded, while Thameslink core trains are generally pretty quiet off-peak. I've experimented with Thameslink for some journeys into central London but have generally reverted to the overcrowded tube because Thameslink just isn't competitive on time through the core.

It isn't just a case of it 'not being on the tube map', as most people now use Citymapper or a similar app (which includes National Rail and Thameslink services already) to plan their journeys rather than a map. A lot of my friends who live North of the river have now discovered (through the help of such apps) that National Rail is actually the quicker way to get to Putney (rather than the district), Greenwich (rather than the DLR), and Croydon (rather than the overground) for example, previously they used to just use the tube map and take the much slower TfL service to said destinations.

But if you use such apps, it still rarely shows Thameslink as a better alternative, why? Because the terrible connectivity of Thameslink to tube lines means you often have large time penalty taking it.

If we consider people like me who live on the southern Northern Line (Morden-Elephant),
changing at Elephant & Castle from the Northern Line to Thameslink would add a 5-10 min time penalty, including walking outside in the rain in a pretty unsafe-feeling area.
For the large flow that is heading to Canary Wharf, there will then be a second time penalty if they take this route, due to the indirect connection from Thameslink to the Jubilee again at London Bridge.

So Thameslink offers no benefit to us. It's always easier, quicker and drier to stay on the Northern line. Thameslink also has no connection to the Central Line, the Northern Line has two at Bank & TCR. Northern Line therefore wins again for people heading East or West.

Bref, the reason Thameslink isn't used by many London commuters isn't because it isn't on the map; it's because it isn't a direct or useful service for the journey they need to make.

Had they built better, in-station direct connections, at say Loughborough Junction with the Overground, Elephant & Castle with the Tube, a Central Line connection, maybe something on the Edgware branch near Belsize Park, then I'd hazard a guess patronage would be much higher, and it might have helped ease the awful overcrowding we have to deal with.

But the inability to see the need for good connections seems to be a disease that this country's infrastructure planners ever since the Victoria Line was finished. As we've now seen again with Thameslink.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn’t necessarily bank on the resignalling enhancing journey times that much. What is gained in acceleration performance will quite possibly be lost in the deterioration in brake rate performance, bearing in mind it’s largely the same system as the Jubilee and Northern lines. There will probably be a gain from each train having consistent performance, but the issue of slow drivers doesn’t entirely go away.

Likewise things will become erratic if there’s lots of manual driving in the open sections for whatever reason - even one section of manual driving is enough to start messing up the Northern Line! Many drivers simply haven’t taken well to the Thales system, and it’s likely the SSR lines will be no different as they’re largely copying the Northern Line model.

Missed this yesterday.

When the ATO is in service the braking will be better; I’ve been on the simulators and the trains will brake much, much later than any driver manages now. Generally the braking will also be at a higher rate. There won’t be much gain in acceleration, as drivers generally use the full capability of the train in that respect.

Other ATO benefits:

1) the doors will open immediately on stopping at a station, rather than a second or two later
2) AIUI the linespeed will increase from 30mph to 50kmh (in ATO / ETCS only) as signal spacing and sighting issues disappear
3) every train will be consistent.

On this last point it was instructive to see core performance during a delay in the peak last week. 22 trains went southbound through the core in 57 minutes, all on conventional signalling / driving. The headways between them varied between 120seconds and 225 seconds. Some of this is of course loading variability, but some is unquestionably driver variability - differences in braking / acceleration rate, reaction times to clearing signals, how quickly station duties are completed, and many other factors. This is not to blame drivers in any way incidentally!

I think it unlikely that core journey times will improve further, at least not until the 24tph timetable is in and has worked for a year or two.

 

[bramling]

Missed this yesterday.

When the ATO is in service the braking will be better; I’ve been on the simulators and the trains will brake much, much later than any driver manages now. Generally the braking will also be at a higher rate. There won’t be much gain in acceleration, as drivers generally use the full capability of the train it that respect.

Other ATO benefits:

1) the doors will open immediately on stopping at a station, rather than a second or two later
2) AIUI the linespeed will increase from 30mph to 50kmh (in ATO / ETCS only) as signal spacing and sighting issues disappear
3) every train will be consistent.

On this last point it was instructive to see core performance during a delay in the peak last week. 22 trains went southbound through the core in 57 minutes, all on conventional signalling / driving. The headways between them varied between 120seconds and 225 seconds. Some of this is of course loading variability, but some is unquestionably driver variability - differences in braking / acceleration rate, reaction times to clearing signals, how quickly station duties are completed, and many other factors. This is not to blame drivers in any way incidentally!

I think it unlikely that core journey times will improve further, at least not until the 24tph timetable is in and has worked for a year or two.

To clarify, I was referring to the upcoming SSR resignalling and the use of the Thales system on it, not ETCS on Thameslink which will presumably avoid these issues. Brake rate on the Jubilee and Northern lines is certainly *not* better under ATO, in the open sections at least. Brent Cross southbound platform could be reliably hit at 40 mph under signalled manual driving even in the wet, the Thales system manages a rather pathetic 22 mph, which is worse than even the slowest drivers used to achieve! Closer to home, watch how the ATO handles the northbound Northern Line platform at King’s Cross for a similar example.

 

[Bald Rick]

To clarify, I was referring to the upcoming SSR resignalling and the use of the Thales system on it, not ETCS on Thameslink which will presumably avoid these issues. Brake rate on the Jubilee and Northern lines is certainly *not* better under ATO, in the open sections at least. Brent Cross southbound platform could be reliably hit at 40 mph under signalled manual driving even in the wet, the Thales system manages a rather pathetic 22 mph, which is worse than even the slowest drivers used to achieve! Closer to home, watch how the ATO handles the northbound Northern Line platform at King’s Cross for a similar example.

Ah, apologies, crossed lines.

 

[BRX]

It isn't just a case of it 'not being on the tube map', as most people now use Citymapper or a similar app (which includes National Rail and Thameslink services already) to plan their journeys rather than a map. A lot of my friends who live North of the river have now discovered (through the help of such apps) that National Rail is actually the quicker way to get to Putney (rather than the district), Greenwich (rather than the DLR), and Croydon (rather than the overground) for example, previously they used to just use the tube map and take the much slower TfL service to said destinations.

But if you use such apps, it still rarely shows Thameslink as a better alternative, why? Because the terrible connectivity of Thameslink to tube lines means you often have large time penalty taking it.

If we consider people like me who live on the southern Northern Line (Morden-Elephant),
changing at Elephant & Castle from the Northern Line to Thameslink would add a 5-10 min time penalty, including walking outside in the rain in a pretty unsafe-feeling area.
For the large flow that is heading to Canary Wharf, there will then be a second time penalty if they take this route, due to the indirect connection from Thameslink to the Jubilee again at London Bridge.

So Thameslink offers no benefit to us. It's always easier, quicker and drier to stay on the Northern line. Thameslink also has no connection to the Central Line, the Northern Line has two at Bank & TCR. Northern Line therefore wins again for people heading East or West.

Bref, the reason Thameslink isn't used by many London commuters isn't because it isn't on the map; it's because it isn't a direct or useful service for the journey they need to make.

Had they built better, in-station direct connections, at say Loughborough Junction with the Overground, Elephant & Castle with the Tube, a Central Line connection, maybe something on the Edgware branch near Belsize Park, then I'd hazard a guess patronage would be much higher, and it might have helped ease the awful overcrowding we have to deal with.

But the inability to see the need for good connections seems to be a disease that this country's infrastructure planners ever since the Victoria Line was finished. As we've now seen again with Thameslink.

An overground station at Loughborough Junction to connect with the overground would be marvellous (especially for me as I live there!) but unfortunately it would be virtually impossible to construct because of the fact that there are four lines in parallel at that point, on a viaduct and with no space for an island platform. The most realistic hope would be for a re-opening of Brixton East which is a short walk away but would not give the direct transfer you are looking for.

 

[EssexGonzo]

As a passenger having used Thameslink through the core a few times now, during rush hour, IMO it doesn't feel slow.

These are huge trains designed to behave like both tube and main line trains within the same journey. I'm still impressed by how they operate as swiftly as they do under manual operation - especially given the safety remit of the driver and topography of old stations.

ATO, when it arrives, should be even more impressive with stronger braking.

 

[LLivery]

But if you use such apps, it still rarely shows Thameslink as a better alternative, why? Because the terrible connectivity of Thameslink to tube lines means you often have large time penalty taking it.

If we consider people like me who live on the southern Northern Line (Morden-Elephant),
changing at Elephant & Castle from the Northern Line to Thameslink would add a 5-10 min time penalty, including walking outside in the rain in a pretty unsafe-feeling area.
For the large flow that is heading to Canary Wharf, there will then be a second time penalty if they take this route, due to the indirect connection from Thameslink to the Jubilee again at London Bridge.

So Thameslink offers no benefit to us. It's always easier, quicker and drier to stay on the Northern line. Thameslink also has no connection to the Central Line, the Northern Line has two at Bank & TCR. Northern Line therefore wins again for people heading East or West.

Bref, the reason Thameslink isn't used by many London commuters isn't because it isn't on the map; it's because it isn't a direct or useful service for the journey they need to make.

Had they built better, in-station direct connections, at say Loughborough Junction with the Overground, Elephant & Castle with the Tube, a Central Line connection, maybe something on the Edgware branch near Belsize Park, then I'd hazard a guess patronage would be much higher, and it might have helped ease the awful overcrowding we have to deal with.

But the inability to see the need for good connections seems to be a disease that this country's infrastructure planners ever since the Victoria Line was finished. As we've now seen again with Thameslink.

Really? Yes, connections could be better, but it's the best-connected railway in London, Crossrail will make it even more so.

Within the zones you've got:

Purley (Southern)
East Croydon (Southern, Trams)
Norwood Jun (Southern, ELL)
London Bridge (Southern, SE, Northern, Jubilee)
Wimbledon (District, Trams, SWR)
Mitcham Jun (Trams)
Streatham (Southern)
Sutton (Southern)
Tulse Hill (Southern)
Herne Hill (SE)
Greenwich (DLR)
Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)
Abbey Wood (Crossrail)
Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye (SE, Southern, ELL)
Nunhead (SE)
Catford (OSI Catford Bridge SE)
Shortlands (SE)
Bromley South (SE)
Orpington (SE)
Swanley (SE)
Elephant & Castle (OSI Northern & Bakerloo)
London Blackfriars (Circle & District)
City Thameslink (unadvertised OSI Central, not that useful after Crossrail)
Farrington (Circle, H&C, Met, Crossrail)
St Pancras (Circle, H&C, Met, Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria, King's Cross, Eurostar, EMT)
Kentish Town (Northern)
West Hampstead (OSI Jubilee, NLL)
Finsbury Park (Picadilly, Victoria, GN)
Redhill (GWR, Southern)
Gatwick Airport

Thameslink makes most of South London accessible with one-two changes.

Elephant isn't the best connection, but it isn't awful, I'm not sure about feeling unsafe there these days; it's being gentrified and developed beyond belief with the shopping centre going and everyone from the Haygate pushed out. I'd be surprised if the stations are integrated soon enough. I know it had quite a bit of support for the Bakerloo extension.

The only connections really missed is the Sydenham corridor (which is mad), Alexandra Palace and Loughborough Junction. L Junction isn't really an issue as there are direct Thameslink trains from Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye. Belsize Park is impossible as it's in the rather long Belsize Tunnel which came first.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

1) the doors will open immediately on stopping at a station, rather than a second or two later
2) AIUI the linespeed will increase from 30mph to 50kmh (in ATO / ETCS only) as signal spacing and sighting issues disappear
3) every train will be consistent.

Ta for the info. But is the bolded bit a typo? Seeing as 30mph and 50kph are for all practical purposes the same speed!

 

[Bald Rick]

Ta for the info. But is the bolded bit a typo? Seeing as 30mph and 50kph are for all practical purposes the same speed!

No typo. But that extra 1 mph will help at the margins. Nevertheless a lot of things needed checking, particularly the dynamic gauging of the train.

In the early days of West Coast the journey times were assessed on a max linespeed of 125mph, but the train profile was set to 200km/h. That 0.73mph difference caused a few problems at one point! But that’s another story.

 

[Minstral25]

Really? Yes, connections could be better, but it's the best-connected railway in London, Crossrail will make it even more so.

Within the zones you've got:


Redhill (GWR, Southern)
Gatwick Airport

Pedantic I know but neither of these are in Zones!

 

[LLivery]

Pedantic I know but neither of these are in Zones!

Alright, the "Oyster Area"

 

[Ianno87]

Slow in the core or otherwise, in 1997 an off-peak King’s Cross to Hitchin journey was scheduled to take 29 minutes, whereas in 2019 the same St Pancras to Hitchin journey is scheduled to take 34 minutes. A journey from London to Knebworth compares even worse.

32 minutes on a Horsham-Peterborough (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73039/2019/02/12)

That's 29 minutes plus:
-1 minute performance recovery between St Pancras and Belle Isle
-At least an extra 30 seconds (possibly 60) on the dwell time at Finsbury Park for a crew chang
-The remaining 1-1.5 minutes looks like its simply pathing time (in the dwell time at Finsbury Park) to slot onto the ECML fasts, where are considerably busier now than in 1997 (e.g. 2tph Leeds not 1tph, and 1tph Newark/York and Open Access that didn't exist in 1997)

The 34 minutes in the Brighton-Cambridge is to wait slightly longer at Finsbury Park to get it to flight in front of the Ely/Kings Lynn fast as far as Woolmer Green, so the overtaking move on the 4-track through Hitchin works.

 

[jon0844]

But if you use such apps, it still rarely shows Thameslink as a better alternative, why? Because the terrible connectivity of Thameslink to tube lines means you often have large time penalty taking it.

Be default, planners seem to give rather crazy interchange times from some stations so it might seem like a long interchange between King's Cross and St Pancras when using rail, which either puts people off OR makes other connections appear quicker and show as faster (such as alighting at Finsbury Park for the tube, than going to St Pancras and taking a Thameslink train south or whatever).

Given every train will stop at all stations within the core, it doesn't even really need to have a time for a connection.. just walk from King's Cross and take the first available train. If you're then getting on to the tube at Blackfriars or London Bridge, you don't need to worry about a timetable there either (pretty much - at Blackfriars there will be Circle and District line trains with different destinations).

 

[Ianno87]

Be default, planners seem to give rather crazy interchange times from some stations so it might seem like a long interchange between King's Cross and St Pancras when using rail, which either puts people off OR makes other connections appear quicker and show as faster (such as alighting at Finsbury Park for the tube, than going to St Pancras and taking a Thameslink train south or whatever).

Given every train will stop at all stations within the core, it doesn't even really need to have a time for a connection.. just walk from King's Cross and take the first available train. If you're then getting on to the tube at Blackfriars or London Bridge, you don't need to worry about a timetable there either (pretty much - at Blackfriars there will be Circle and District line trains with different destinations).

Oh yes, journey planners hugely overegg the St Pancras<>Kings Cross interchange time. 15-20 minutes is more than ample for even people unfamiliar with the station. Fix this and alot more people will follow that route (and help LU out operationally by giving them fewer people to deal with at London Bridge).

Plan a journey from anywhere on the ECML (where Thameslink isn't the fastest option) to Blackfriars, and it'll tell you get the Tube from King's Cross!

 

[jon0844]

Oh yes, journey planners hugely overegg the St Pancras<>Kings Cross interchange time. 15-20 minutes is more than ample for even people unfamiliar with the station. Fix this and alot more people will follow that route (and help LU out operationally by giving them fewer people to deal with at London Bridge).

Plan a journey from anywhere on the ECML (where Thameslink isn't the fastest option) to Blackfriars, and it'll tell you get the Tube from King's Cross!

From platforms 9-11 it's quicker to get to the low level station at St Pancras than walk to the sub-surface platforms. Even from 0-8 there's not a lot of difference.

 

[ComUtoR]

Missed this yesterday.

When the ATO is in service the braking will be better; I’ve been on the simulators and the trains will brake much, much later than any driver manages now.

You haven't seen some of our Drivers braking points..

2) AIUI the linespeed will increase from 30mph to 50kmh (in ATO / ETCS only) as signal spacing and sighting issues disappear

Will the speed boards be replaced or additional Kph boards erected ? If I saw the ATO exceeding the speed limit, even by 1mph, I will put the brakes in. 700s are already a nightmare with 3 speed's in the cab all showing a different speed :/

 

[Ianno87]

From platforms 9-11 it's quicker to get to the low level station at St Pancras than walk to the sub-surface platforms. Even from 0-8 there's not a lot of difference.

I can personally make a 15 minute interchange from *Euston* if my train is on 9-11!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Given every train will stop at all stations within the core, it doesn't even really need to have a time for a connection.. just walk from King's Cross and take the first available train.

That may become true when the full Thameslink timetable gets implemented, but at the moment there are long enough gaps - especially between Blackfriars and London Bridge - that it tends to be worth checking the timetable. Not sure if things have changed since the new year, but certainly before Xmas, I recall sometimes seeing gaps of 20 minutes or more (often then followed by several trains within the space of 10 minutes).

 

[jon0844]

I can personally make a 15 minute interchange from *Euston* if my train is on 9-11!

Me too, although it's a bit stressful to do frequently.

 

[Esker-pades]

That may become true when the full Thameslink timetable gets implemented, but at the moment there are long enough gaps - especially between Blackfriars and London Bridge - that it tends to be worth checking the timetable. Not sure if things have changed since the new year, but certainly before Xmas, I recall sometimes seeing gaps of 20 minutes or more (often then followed by several trains within the space of 10 minutes).

There should be gaps of no more than 15 minutes because of the Gatwick/Brighton to Bedford services which become evenly spaced 4tph north of East Croydon. There is currently a 15 minute gap every hour where the second Brighton to Cambridge train should be but isn't.

Of course, weekends are much worse.

 

[bramling]

Me too, although it's a bit stressful to do frequently.

No problem if done by bike! I've done Waterloo to King's Cross within 15 minutes before, albeit before the new concourse opened, taking a chance on the train going from its booked platform, and being able to cycle virtually right up to the platform in those days. No way this would be possible using St Pancras low-level. Another negative aspect of Thameslink!

(Okay there might be the option to join a northbound train at Blackfriars instead, although I think this would possibly be too tight to manage in practice).