Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[ScotRail158725]

Further up the page i seen something about 904/905 being for the 3BT and i reckon this is true as both are now showing of the coast of Nigeria on the tracker where trackers deafult wehn they're pre service or withdrawn or getting refurbished

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Further up the page i seen something about 904/905 being for the 3BT and i reckon this is true as both are now showing of the coast of Nigeria on the tracker where trackers deafult wehn they're pre service or withdrawn or getting refurbished

905 doesn't appear to have been used since 4th January although 904 was out on the 19 today according to lvf.io.

https://lvf.io/#LRT|History 904

 

[ScotRail158725]

905 doesn't appear to have been used since 4th January although 904 was out on the 19 today according to lvf.io.

https://lvf.io/#LRT|History 904

Wonder why its showing default tracker position then?

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Wonder why its showing default tracker position then?

Yes that is strange.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Maybe todays its ast day before refurb and its away now? Only explination i have

 

[tbtc]

Certainly in West Lothian, First has the newer fleet and from what I can see as a passenger it is in better condition. Lothian Country are running generally older buses though try to hide it with Irish plates.

I partially agree with you with Stagecoach. Their Coach fleet is excellent and incredibly modern and in many ways quite innovative (low floor coaches) however when I’ve visited the Dunfermline area their bus fleet is very poor and run down, with some very old double deckers running around

I try to avoid the "Operator X is better than Operator Y" arguments in general.

But two reasons why the First fleet in West Lothian may look better than the Stagecoach *bus* fleet in Fife are as follows:

1. First have trimmed back most of their "local" services in West Lothian - the 27 is the only "town service" left - so the kind of uneconomic/ marginal local routes around Dunfermline/ Kirkcaldy/ Leven that Stagecoach use fifteen year old double deckers on don't really exist in West Lothian any more - almost all routes serve at least two of Bathgate/ Livingston/ Edinburgh (some serve all three).I'm old enough to remember Bathgate having town services (and other local routes that went no further than Whitburn/ Armadale). Stagecoach have made some cuts too, sure, I remember the days of the Buzz Buses where estates got a minibus every ten minutes when there's maybe a superannuated double decker once or twice an hour - but at least those routes are still running in the main.

2. First do have a very nice West Lothian fleet - the best I can remember since the mid'80s days of Eastern Scottish (when I first became interested) - it's very modern. But it's all one fleet. Whereas Stagecoach have a distinction between "coaches" (long distance lucrative Edinburgh services) and "buses" (shorter local routes, less profitable), so it's not surprising that their older buses stand out - because the buses are on separate routes to the nice modern coaches

(but I'm getting way off-topic here so will shut up!)

 

[overthewater]

First dont operate any other town services which are all operate by tenders. Local buses everywhere aren't great. There is nothing in Kirkcaldy town centre, so little foot traffic... Its surprising its still get so many buses.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First dont operate any other town services which are all operate by tenders. Local buses everywhere aren't great. There is nothing in Kirkcaldy town centre, so little foot traffic... Its surprising its still get so many buses.

Town Services on a whole have heavily declined in both frequency and use, most are not viable either. I'd argue town services are possibly the most badly hit by the decline in bus use. The simple fact is that most people who move to small/medium size towns these days are middle class, middle age and/or have a car.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Maybe todays its ast day before refurb and its away now? Only explination i have

It's out today on service 15.

I agree with you though. It wasn't showing last night.

 

[overthewater]

All those new coaches cost money, its either pay for them or keep unused routes to place no one wants to go going?

 

[buslad1988]

Just spotted one of the hybrid enviros (sorry didn’t have chance to ID) travelling along A1 towards Seafield. It’s had a repaint into the new style madder/white with curved lines as per the new enviro tri-axles.

Assume it will be the first ‘standard’ fleet bus to gain the Lothiancity fleetnames and crest aswell.

I wonder if just the enviros will recieve this style livery or will this now be the standard for all future repaints?

 

[VioletEclipse]

Just spotted one of the hybrid enviros (sorry didn’t have chance to ID) travelling along A1 towards Seafield. It’s had a repaint into the new style madder/white with curved lines as per the new enviro tri-axles.

Assume it will be the first ‘standard’ fleet bus to gain the Lothiancity fleetnames and crest aswell.

I wonder if just the enviros will recieve this style livery or will this now be the standard for all future repaints?

Knowing Lothian I wouldn't be surprised if they made it the standard livery for repaints until about June, then introduced yet another new livery that became standard until about January. Ok maybe I'm exaggerating a wee bit but the amount of liveries they have is a mess, and they keep changing their mind, honestly there was nothing wrong with the pre-harlequin Madder and White. Since 2016 they have just messed the liveries up, and now there's hardly a batch in the fleet without at least two different liveries. Also I'm sure repainting buses at this rate would cost them quite a bit, never mind the amount of paint they use. I'm ranting a bit but I often wonder what the current fleet would look like had Harlequin never been introduced and they were all in the standard pre-1999 Madder and White.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Knowing Lothian I wouldn't be surprised if they made it the standard livery for repaints until about June, then introduced yet another new livery that became standard until about January. Ok maybe I'm exaggerating a wee bit but the amount of liveries they have is a mess, and they keep changing their mind, honestly there was nothing wrong with the pre-harlequin Madder and White. Since 2016 they have just messed the liveries up, and now there's hardly a batch in the fleet without at least two different liveries. Also I'm sure repainting buses at this rate would cost them quite a bit, never mind the amount of paint they use. I'm ranting a bit but I often wonder what the current fleet would look like had Harlequin never been introduced and they were all in the standard pre-1999 Madder and White.

As far as I was told whilst working at longstone it was a case of experimenting with what they wanted there company livery to look like.

Apparently it was the angular design of there latest Geminis that settled the livery to what it is now.

 

[VioletEclipse]

As far as I was told whilst working at longstone it was a case of experimenting with what they wanted there company livery to look like.

Apparently it was the angular design of there latest Geminis that settled the livery to what it is now.

The problem is that with the amount of different liveries right now, the company doesn't 'look like' anything, except a bus with some madder and some white painted on it, before 1999 it was one livery, and everyone associated that with Lothian, then Harlequin came, and was the main livery by about 2008, and then in early 2016 they briefly had all their fleet in one livery again. Since then the liveries are all over the place, they'll have to decide on a livery and stick to it for a while before their livery identity, as such, returns.

 

[gghdeo]

Hi, newbie here. I'm from Edinburgh originally but I live in Greater London now. I'm interested in things like transport design, brand identity and usability, and so this seemed like a good opportunity to ask a question. Despite Lothian's successes, there are a few things that drive me nuts, one of which is the livery. As VioletEclipse says, the fact that the livery changes so often and the fact that we've very rarely (if ever?) seen the entire fleet in a consistent livery in last two decades, weakens the brand. I was hopeful with the creation of Transport for Edinburgh that we'd have a stronger, well-implemented brand covering both the buses and the trams but it seems like Lothian buses have actually distanced themselves from TfE -- am I right in thinking the livery now makes no mention of it? The Lothiancity logo seems to have dropped the TfE logo too? Lothian's website post-redesign only references TfE now on an obscure page. Why is that?

 

[VioletEclipse]

Hi, newbie here. I'm from Edinburgh originally but I live in Greater London now. I'm interested in things like transport design, brand identity and usability, and so this seemed like a good opportunity to ask a question. Despite Lothian's successes, there are a few things that drive me nuts, one of which is the livery. As VioletEclipse says, the fact that the livery changes so often and the fact that we've very rarely (if ever?) seen the entire fleet in a consistent livery in last two decades, weakens the brand. I was hopeful with the creation of Transport for Edinburgh that we'd have a stronger, well-implemented brand covering both the buses and the trams but it seems like Lothian buses have actually distanced themselves from TfE -- am I right in thinking the livery now makes no mention of it? The Lothiancity logo seems to have dropped the TfE logo too? Lothian's website post-redesign only references TfE now on an obscure page. Why is that?

Hello and welcome, While I'm not sure about the reason behind it, Lothian seem to now have nothing to do with TfE or the Trams, and the new livery hasn't mentioned it since 2017.

 

[OmniCity999]

I believe it was felt there was too much interference from TfE near the end of Ian Craig's rulling.

When the management structure changed and new people were put in, Lothian wanted to be run by themselves.

I personally believe TfE went around it the wrong way. TfE should have been created much like TfL, to oversea rather than conquer.

TfE should oversea all transport in the city, including truckers, cars, taxis, trams, trains within the city and cycles.

TfE would also be in charge of overseeing the south suburban rail development. Which I personally believe should return we a tram link.

 

[OmniCity999]

I mean TfL are known to conquer sometimes but hey ho. This isn't the place for that.

 

[Mal]

An exiled Edinburgher here and it is driving me mad seeing all these changes that Lothian are making to the buses and livery in particular. First, they get rid of tramboards, then roller blinds and all the information they gave, then they bring in Hybrid buses and their livery then 'Fleet of the Future' livery...............
Is is asking too much for them to decide on one standard livery for all city buses and stick with it for a few years? I understand why they brought in that awful harlequin, but at least the livery was standardised.
What I will compliment them on is bringing back the city coat of arms. Now, if only it had the (correct) title of 'City and Royal Burgh of Edinburgh'. End of rant.

 

[gghdeo]

It sounds like the politics of TfE have contributed to today's mess, then. The potential wider scope of TfE aside, it should at the very least be ensuring integration, and that means branding as well as ticketing, and that in turn means consistent branding across the network. I understand the need for sub-brands, like Trams, City buses, East Coast buses, etc, and I understand the need to tweak liveries to fit different vehicle models, and change is not a bad thing per se, but they've failed in my opinion to present a unified image. Standardisation is an important element of usability.

TfL's wider scope aside, they have done this extremely well. Oyster perhaps gave them a strong incentive to do so, but nonetheless it's an example of branding that TfE should aspire to.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

An exiled Edinburgher here and it is driving me mad seeing all these changes that Lothian are making to the buses and livery in particular. First, they get rid of tramboards, then roller blinds and all the information they gave, then they bring in Hybrid buses and their livery then 'Fleet of the Future' livery...............
Is is asking too much for them to decide on one standard livery for all city buses and stick with it for a few years? I understand why they brought in that awful harlequin, but at least the livery was standardised.
What I will compliment them on is bringing back the city coat of arms. Now, if only it had the (correct) title of 'City and Royal Burgh of Edinburgh'. End of rant.

I think they have settled on the livery now.

The ''FOTF' which is on services 8, 22 and 26 is also what is on the new buses coming next month. Older buses are being painted into this livery.

I agree with comments above though. I liked the pre 1999 livery.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Slightly different subject, but Gemini 725 has not been repainted, I saw it at Marine yesterday and forgot to mention. Hybrid 38 was parked infront of it, and 38 is repainted and refurbished.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I think they have settled on the livery now.

The ''FOTF' which is on services 8, 22 and 26 is also what is on the new buses coming next month. Older buses are being painted into this livery.

I agree with comments above though. I liked the pre 1999 livery.

I thought so too, but apparently one of the Enviro 400 Hybrids has been given the curvy version of the Glass Staircase livery, as on 1063-1104.

 

[tbtc]

I'd honestly be surprised if many members of the public/ typical passengers paid much attention to the fact that the maroon bands go diagonally up on some vehicles and come diagonally down on other vehicles - enthusiasts notice these things but I don't know that it matters particularly to everyday people.

I grew up on simple horizontal bands of maroon, so can get quite nostalgic for them, but that was when buses at the time had glazing and "roller blind" destinations that suited those kind of wrap-around liveries.

Now, with big sections of vehicles essentially being big black boxes (due to windows or large destination screens), and modern buses being quite angular at the front, it's harder to have a distinctive livery (that properly stands out from a distance, especially front-on, when passengers are waiting at bus stops) - what Lothian have done seems to work fairly well - I can see why they had the upward diagonals that suited standard Gemini bodywork that was common in the fleet at the time - I can see why the downward diagonals make a feature of the glass staircases on younger buses - whilst all staying within the maroon/white colours that passengers will expect.

What worked on an Atlantean won't necessarily work on a Gemini and what worked on a Gemini won't necessarily work on a 2019 bus (unless you take the London approach and just have one colour all over the vehicle).

Also, there's nothing wrong with having a slightly different livery for the youngest vehicles, making them more eye-catching, both First and Stagecoach had periods of only applying their "Barbie"/"Beachball" liveries to younger vehicles so that they didn't get tainted by association with older vehicles - that seems fairly standard practice elsewhere

(yes, it's "madder" rather than "maroon", but this is another one of those little distinctions that won't matter much to normal people)

 

[Darklord8899]

......just make them all white

 

[gghdeo]

Yeah, I see what you’re saying, but I’m not so interested in the subtle design differences between models (although the more subtle, the better). I don’t agree with newer vehicles having different liveries though — the age or quality of the vehicle isn’t relevant when it comes to figuring out if this is the bus you need — is it the correct company, the correct number, the correct destination. I think it’s useful to look at this from the perspective of an outsider, a tourist, who doesn’t have a working knowledge of the network. A common design language is key.

What is important is easily grouping all Lothian City Buses, and easily understanding that Lothian City Buses and Edinburgh Trams are both Transport for Edinburgh (etc) and that integrated ticketing is available.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Also, there's nothing wrong with having a slightly different livery for the youngest vehicles, making them more eye-catching, both First and Stagecoach had periods of only applying their "Barbie"/"Beachball" liveries to younger vehicles so that they didn't get tainted by association with older vehicles - that seems fairly standard practice elsewhere

The issue with a different livery for newer vehicles is that it gives the perception that certain areas on the networks with older vehicles are lesser. People on routes with older stock then end up asking why they should pay the same fare for a less good service. The best way to go forward is to have one standard livery and a standard style of branding, that doesn't give the perception that one is better than the other.

 

[Darklord8899]

The issue with a different livery for newer vehicles is that it gives the perception that certain areas on the networks with older vehicles are lesser. People on routes with older stock then end up asking why they should pay the same fare for a less good service. The best way to go forward is to have one standard livery and a standard style of branding, that doesn't give the perception that one is better than the other.

Agreed Jordan

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The issue with a different livery for newer vehicles is that it gives the perception that certain areas on the networks with older vehicles are lesser. People on routes with older stock then end up asking why they should pay the same fare for a less good service. The best way to go forward is to have one standard livery and a standard style of branding, that doesn't give the perception that one is better than the other.

I beg too differ

 

[ScotRail158725]

Despite rumors of 679 being for preservation thats been confirmed not to be the case as its now with Skills Coaches Nottingham with 9 others