Could a Plane Service Provide a Commute Route?

[whhistle]

Thinking specifically about the services that pass through Birmingham International (or the one that starts there!), or perhaps Liverpool and Manchester (although don't know how far their airports are from the stations).

Could an airline start a daily service that leaves, say 07:30 and get you in to London at a suitable time?
Then leaves London to come back - so starting off with just one round trip a day.

I wonder if a "no bags" policy could work to speed up boarding / alighting.
Or severly restricting the bag sizes / numbers so people aren't faffing with putting it in lockers.

I suspect it's already been thought of by some airlines but I also suspect little effort was put into how it could work.

Then again, I wonder if it's too late as within 10/15 years, I bet there will be more people in "office" type jobs working from home rather than having to go in somewhere every day.
Which makes me wonder if larger offices would downsize considerably and rent out office space for a day if required.

 

[squizzler]

Daily air travel would be ecologically catastrophic and should be actively discouraged.

The Pendolino service has decimated Birmingham to London air travel at any rate and HS2 will only bury it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Daily air travel would be ecologically catastrophic and should be actively discouraged.

The Pendolino service has decimated Birmingham to London air travel at any rate and HS2 will only bury it.

Has there ever been Birmingham to London air travel? It's always been a road and rail market.

It's London to Manchester that the WCML upgrades rendered irrelevant. It remains only as a niche for a small subset of people - those making air connections at Heathrow (who might be attracted to rail if codesharing and therefore connection guarantees were introduced on the trains as some countries already do) and those who either live near Manchester Airport or are going somewhere in London near Heathrow, e.g. the large business parks around Uxbridge and Stockley Park.

 

[squizzler]

Has there ever been Birmingham to London air travel? It's always been a road and rail market.

The OP seemed to be implying that corridor.

I think that there might be some commuting by air in the Scottish islands and Scilly Isles perhaps. Anywhere on the mainland it has failed. There were unsuccessful attempts by the Welsh Assembly to start an internal air route, and one between Oxford and Cambridge.

I will be interested to see developments in the Flybe network now it is taken over by Virgin Atlantic. The XC voyagers were accused by many people as trains masquerading as planes when they were brought in by Virgin in the early 2000's. Now Virgin have brought a regional airline they probably should have got in the first place. Will Flybe become more of an airborne reincarnation of VTXC, or will it integrate into the VTWC with the latter being the network's long distance spine?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will be interested to see developments in the Flybe network now it is taken over by Virgin Atlantic. The XC voyagers were accused by many people as trains masquerading as planes when they were brought in by Virgin in the early 2000's. Now Virgin have brought a regional airline they probably should have got in the first place. Will Flybe become more of an airborne reincarnation of VTXC, or will it integrate into the VTWC with the latter being the network's long distance spine?

Personally I think they'll kill off the unprofitable stuff, keep the profitable routes as connections to their long haul services at Heathrow, and use spare slots for more long-haul if they can.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it only lasted a few years like their previous domestic attempt.

 

[cjp]

Road and in the main rail a&e already in what ar centres of population there is not the room to fly into the centre.
Helicopters have worked to a limited extent for the wealthy but for the masses on trains or in cars or busses no way

 

[Ianno87]

Has there ever been Birmingham to London air travel? It's always been a road and rail market.

It's London to Manchester that the WCML upgrades rendered irrelevant. It remains only as a niche for a small subset of people - those making air connections at Heathrow (who might be attracted to rail if codesharing and therefore connection guarantees were introduced on the trains as some countries already do) and those who either live near Manchester Airport or are going somewhere in London near Heathrow, e.g. the large business parks around Uxbridge and Stockley Park.

Yes according to this book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/BMI-Story-...s&ie=UTF8&qid=1548675018&sr=1-10&keywords=bmi), British Midland ran a Heathrow-Birmingham service in the 60s or 70s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes according to this book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/BMI-Story-...s&ie=UTF8&qid=1548675018&sr=1-10&keywords=bmi), British Midland ran a Heathrow-Birmingham service in the 60s or 70s.

Cheers, just bought a used copy of that book for just a couple of quid from that link!

 

[etr221]

A former colleague did fly LHR-Birmingham and return once - was adjacent to LHR to start with and was visiting the National Exhibition Centre at the other end.
That being said, on a global scale there are people who do commute by air, though probably not many on a daily basis. I recall reading recently an article about people who did it weekly on an Intercontinental basis (New England to Brazil and such) - although they did tend to be airline CEOs and the like!
And at the ridiculous end of flying - I saw an ad for getting from Milan Malpensa (way out!) to the city - by flying to Linate!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've weekly commuted by air, but that is a bit different from a daily commute. Indeed, when working in Scotland I did air sometimes and train sometimes, depending if I wanted a quicker overall journey (Edinburgh is a bit slow from MKC) or to sit and do stuff for the journey.

 

[gingertom]

Has there ever been Birmingham to London air travel? It's always been a road and rail market.

It's London to Manchester that the WCML upgrades rendered irrelevant. It remains only as a niche for a small subset of people - those making air connections at Heathrow (who might be attracted to rail if codesharing and therefore connection guarantees were introduced on the trains as some countries already do) and those who either live near Manchester Airport or are going somewhere in London near Heathrow, e.g. the large business parks around Uxbridge and Stockley Park.

I recall there was a Birmingham-Gatwick service in the early 90s. A colleague used it for connecting to long haul. I can't remember who operated it but I don't think it has survived.

 

[Killingworth]

Back in the late 1950s my grandmother's next door neighbour regularly flew for meetings from Newcastle to London by BKS, probably aboard an Airspeed Ambassador 'Elizabethan'. Memory says the cabin configuration on at least one type of aircraft used may have included backward facing seats.

This was about the time I dropped trainspotting and took to using a pin hole box camera to take photos at Newcastle Airport, sadly none of passenger aircraft have survived.

The BA's Newcastle - London Heathrow route with 4 planes a day is now in competition with FlyBe's twice a day service to London City - as well as LNER, of course.

I doubt many fly daily, and any who do may be on short term contracts, or just travel 2 or 3 days a week, working from home the rest of the time. Time taken from home to airport, to plane, then from plane to destination are against it for short haul flights.

 

[Bantamzen]

Thinking specifically about the services that pass through Birmingham International (or the one that starts there!), or perhaps Liverpool and Manchester (although don't know how far their airports are from the stations).

Could an airline start a daily service that leaves, say 07:30 and get you in to London at a suitable time?
Then leaves London to come back - so starting off with just one round trip a day.

I wonder if a "no bags" policy could work to speed up boarding / alighting.
Or severly restricting the bag sizes / numbers so people aren't faffing with putting it in lockers.

I suspect it's already been thought of by some airlines but I also suspect little effort was put into how it could work.

Then again, I wonder if it's too late as within 10/15 years, I bet there will be more people in "office" type jobs working from home rather than having to go in somewhere every day.
Which makes me wonder if larger offices would downsize considerably and rent out office space for a day if required.

In today's current political climate, an air-commuter service like this would be highly unviable. Regardless of what commuters might usually take with them, they would have to pass through the same security checks as medium & long haul passengers, so they would need to be at the airport at least 1-2 hours before the flight. And then most of the capital's airports, except somewhere like London City are nowhere near where commuters from say Birmingham would want to be, and so they could expect to add another 30-60 minutes to the commute.

So before you've even factored in actual flight time, the length of the commute has doubled or even tripled. So in short, airlines wouldn't give such a route the time of day. Even longer "shuttle" services some airlines operate are simply designed more to get passengers to hubs like Heathrow, Dublin or Amsterdam to connect to long haul services without the hassle of getting between modes.

 

[Bald Rick]

It depends on your definition of commute. I spent 6 years of my life “commuting” long distance by train (well over 2 hours each way) but I rarely did more than 3 return trips a week, and never did 5.


There are plenty of people who fly from Scotland to London and vv on a several times a week basis (if not daily). Generally to London City for people who work in central London.

Airlines will never market their services for a daily commute (save for example, services to the islands) but there are many people who use them for that purpose.

 

[gingertom]

there is a well-documented account of a Polish student who commutes to London from Warsaw by easyJet as he's found it cheaper than renting a flat in the capital.

 

[big all]

there is a well-documented account of a Polish student who commutes to London from Warsaw by easyJet as he's found it cheaper than renting a flat in the capital.

that will only ever work where extremes exist when saving money is the object
as in from minimum price to minimum price against the flow
rather than normal premium fares for normal commuter flows
indeed i suspect his cheap commute and cheap living will equal a very high commute time end to end??

 

[tiptoptaff]

FlyBe tried a CWL-LCY service during the 2016 Severn Tunnel closure and for a month or so afterwards, one return a day. Even with the increased journey time via Gloucester, and the reduced hourly service, many people clearly found it more convenient to use the GWR rail service. Once the tunnel opened and normal service resumed, the flights were killed off quickly.

I don't think its viable for the distances covered in the UK. In the US, there are airlines set up to cater for commuters, but air travel is vastly greater over there anyway. By virtue of size.

 

[Clip]

It depends on your definition of commute. I spent 6 years of my life “commuting” long distance by train (well over 2 hours each way) but I rarely did more than 3 return trips a week, and never did 5.

I did this for a few years - 5 or 6 a week and it was certainly a killer but was a necessary evil.

 

[Taunton]

The word "commuter" has taken different meanings. I don't believe there is any air service in the world which has passengers 5 days a week to and fro between their home and a regular place of work. But in the airline world commuter has just come to mean "short distance". It's very common on the early morning planes between London and Scotland, and elsewhere, to find quite a proportion are returning that evening, having gone to business meetings, I regularly do this myself. But not all 5 days of the week. Likewise there may be regular travellers who go outward every Monday morning, stay in a hotel, and return home on Friday, or back on Thursday and spend just the Friday in their office, who describe themselves as commuters.

there is a well-documented account of a Polish student who commutes to London from Warsaw by easyJet as he's found it cheaper than renting a flat in the capital.

As Easyjet run just 4 times a week between Gatwick and Warsaw, flying both ways in the middle of the day, this rather stretches the word "commutes" to extremes. And then you have the vagaries of GTR getting you to/from London to deal with.

Regardless of what commuters might usually take with them, they would have to pass through the same security checks as medium & long haul passengers, so they would need to be at the airport at least 1-2 hours before the flight.

You really need to get out and do some flying. Getting to the airport about 30 minutes before departure is standard, especially for those who get to know the procedures well. If you got to London City airport, my local one, "at least" 2 hours before a 7am morning flight the terminal building would not even be unlocked yet! Nowadays with any reasonable rail fare tied to specific train services and having to buy all over again if you just miss it, much the same applies to rail travellers.

 

[Bantamzen]

You really need to get out and do some flying. Getting to the airport about 30 minutes before departure is standard, especially for those who get to know the procedures well. If you got to London City airport, my local one, "at least" 2 hours before a 7am morning flight the terminal building would not even be unlocked yet! Nowadays with any reasonable rail fare tied to specific train services and having to buy all over again if you just miss it, much the same applies to rail travellers.

Thanks, I do actually fly quite a lot so I do know the drill. Yes, you might just about get away with a 30 minute before departure arrival at London City with the right conditions, but give it a go at Manchester for example. Heck, you'd even be hard pressed even at my local airport of Leeds Bradford at certain times of the day! And looking at the departures board just now for London City, last call for some flights is going up 15-20 minutes before push-back is due. So rocking up at the entrance with just half an hour might be do-able, but in reality probably only needs a small delay with people in front of you at security to snooker your chances. In effect it would be like saying you could arrive at a busy terminus railway station with a couple of minutes to go before departure, which a lot of people do then moan about the train sailing away from the platform with them stuck behind someone faffing about at the ticket barrier!

 

[Taunton]

And looking at the departures board just now for London City, last call for some flights is going up 15-20 minutes before push-back is due.

Stupidly, "last call" and other such messages come from an automated system, which commonly loses touch with reality. I regularly see this shown when the incoming aircraft has not even arrived on stand yet. The railway does not have the monopoly on silly procedures.

The person marshalling the security queue is there specifically to put you through the side checkpoint if there is a sudden rush and your flight goes soon. Try speaking to them. Aviation is much more commercially minded, especially about regular customers, than rail, I am afraid.

 

[Bantamzen]

Stupidly, "last call" and other such messages come from an automated system, which commonly loses touch with reality. I regularly see this shown when the incoming aircraft has not even arrived on stand yet. The railway does not have the monopoly on silly procedures.

Reading this I got an image in my head of confused passengers charging onto the apron & chasing an unrelated flight down the runway!

The person marshalling the security queue is there specifically to put you through the side checkpoint if there is a sudden rush and your flight goes soon. Try speaking to them. Aviation is much more commercially minded, especially about regular customers, than rail, I am afraid.

Depending on how busy the fast-tracked security is at LBA, circumventing the regular queue can quite simple. But you didn't hear that from me....

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The OP seemed to be implying that corridor.

I think that there might be some commuting by air in the Scottish islands and Scilly Isles perhaps. Anywhere on the mainland it has failed. There were unsuccessful attempts by the Welsh Assembly to start an internal air route, and one between Oxford and Cambridge.

I will be interested to see developments in the Flybe network now it is taken over by Virgin Atlantic. The XC voyagers were accused by many people as trains masquerading as planes when they were brought in by Virgin in the early 2000's. Now Virgin have brought a regional airline they probably should have got in the first place. Will Flybe become more of an airborne reincarnation of VTXC, or will it integrate into the VTWC with the latter being the network's long distance spine?

The Welsh route is very useful, I always use it over the train when I have to get up to Anglesey for work, in fact it's often cheaper to fly. That said the only reason it exists is to make things easier for AMs, but as for being unsuccessful, it's often full and normally on time.

 

[deltic]

To reply to the OP if the plane was just making one short return trip a day it will be losing money hand over fist.

 

[47271]

All sorts of insane things are possible, in the air or on the land, but only the insane will do them.

I know someone who 'lived' on the Highlander sleeper for four nights in a row a couple of years ago due to work and personal commitments between London and Scotland. Half a Flexipass blown in a week, all paid for by the employer, but I suspect that the real cost was carried by the individual doing it. Amazing.

He asked the crew if anyone had done it before and they said 'only us'. It may well be a record...

 

[etr221]

All sorts of insane things are possible, in the air or on the land, but only the insane will do them.

I know someone who 'lived' on the Highlander sleeper for four nights in a row a couple of years ago due to work and personal commitments between London and Scotland. Half a Flexipass blown in a week, all paid for by the employer, but I suspect that the real cost was carried by the individual doing it. Amazing.

He asked the crew if anyone had done it before and they said 'only us'. It may well be a record...

Getting rather OT - I heard a story about an Italian politician, many years ago, who after long service retired with a then decent pension and life time pass on the (state) railway - then inflation struck and his pension would only pay for a daily coffee - so he went and lived on the railway - sleeper from one end of country to other every night...

And the other story is of the man who caused the booking clerk at Thurso to go over backwards by asking for an annual season (1st class, with sleeper supplement...) to London... (this was between the wars, he'd just bought the remains of the Hochseeflotte as scrap)

 

[Taunton]

And the other story is of the man who caused the booking clerk at Thurso to go over backwards by asking for an annual season (1st class, with sleeper supplement...) to London...

Certainly used to be the case that Members of Parliament were issued with a First Class pass (essentially a season ticket) between London and their constituency, so they could come and go as required. I don't know what the financial arrangements were between Parliament and the railway. It went back to pre-nationalisation times. Parliament arranged these rather than local booking clerks - I believe there was a longstanding railway booking office inside Parliament that did all sorts of fixing up.

 

[DelW]

Between about 2001 and 2010, I regularly worked in and around Scotland's central belt for one, two or three days a week, while living in Surrey. Obviously when it was more than one day I didn't travel daily, so it doesn't count as "commuting", but a day trip with a full day's work was easily feasible and I think a lot of passengers on early and late flights were doing exactly that. As Taunton suggested, if you travel a route regularly you soon get to know how long each stage takes, if there are likely to be queues etc.

My typical times were about:
05:00 alarm clock
05:20 leave home
06:00 park car at LHR/LGW
06:20 into terminal
06:30 at gate
06:45 board
07:00 depart
08:20 arrive EDI/GLA
08:30 collect hire car
09:00 - 09:15 arrive at workplace

17:30 leave work
18:15 drop off hire car
18:20 into terminal
18:40 at gate
19:00 board
19:15 depart
20:30 arrive LHR/LGW
21:00 collect car
21:40 home

According to my records, I did 165 round trips (330 flights) without ever missing one. The closest I came was when there was an unexpectedly long queue at Glasgow domestic pier security check, before it was moved to its present location and size. I even managed to fit in a beer before homeward departure more often than not.

Travelling by train and using the earliest departure from my local station at about 05:50 (leave home 05:30, so similar to above), I would have reached central Glasgow at about mid-day, and my workplace at about 13:00.

 

[PHILIPE]

Holyhead to Cardiff daily for Assembly members and staff. It is a big loss maker but the Welsh Assembly subsidise it.
g Government