East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'm at the stage now where I don't really care which route they choose. They just need to get on with it.

Both the southern approach to Cambridge (via Sandy) and the northern one (via A428 corridor, as proposed by CamBedRailroad) have their advantages and disadvantages but I could live with either. It would just be nice to be able to ride on the service sometime in the next 20 years.

I like both too and could live with either. They need a decision soon and hopefully by 2030 it will be open.

 

[Andyjs247]

I hope whichever route is chosen will have a physical connection to the ECML (or at least passive provision for one if it proves too expensive). EWR was all about improving connectivity but seems to have become more concerned with mass house building.

 

[camflyer]

I hope whichever route is chosen will have a physical connection to the ECML (or at least passive provision for one if it proves too expensive). EWR was all about improving connectivity but seems to have become more concerned with mass house building.

A connection to the ECML at either Sandy or St Neots would seem like a no-brainer but given the politics of rail infrastructure, anything is possible.

 

[hooverboy]

A connection to the ECML at either Sandy or St Neots would seem like a no-brainer but given the politics of rail infrastructure, anything is possible.

it's pretty much a done deal there will be a connection to ECML...my only gripe is the intersections proposed will not be at the optimum points to get best usage and footfall.

considering how much the project costs,you would have thought the ability to recoup those inital outlays should be fairly high up the list of priorities.
for most people, time is money, so the ability to get to and from a place of commerce with the minimum of connection times is pretty important.

 

[CdBrux]

considering how much the project costs,you would have thought the ability to recoup those inital outlays should be fairly high up the list of priorities.
.

I suspect the route facilitating new housing would be a far more important factor than a good link to ECML to delivering this.

 

[sammorris]

I suspect the route facilitating new housing would be a far more important factor than a good link to ECML to delivering this.

Yes, I'd tend to agree, connecting to long distance LNER services is just not as important as you might think at first sight. Many of the places on the route have reasonable connections to long distance ECML destinations anyway via other routes, and EWR won't necessarily be faster or more direct.

• Anywhere East of Cambridge will have a better connection to the ECML using the existing line to Peterborough, which has the advantage of being where the LNER trains stop (and I don't see that changing)
  
• From Bletchley or anywhere west of there, changing at Birmingham New Street is going to be competitive, I'd have thought, for travel to most ECML destinations.
• From Luton it might well still be quicker via London

Really, you're looking at Bedford residents as the main market for ECML connections. Yes, a direct Peterborough service would be a welcome addition for Bedford residents, but it's probably not going to be the most popular service to use EWR.

 

[mr_jrt]

Don't forget in a post-HS2-eastern-arm world the ECML will look somewhat different, with much less demand for non-stop fast services south of York to London. Adding in more stops at regional interchanges will very likely be worthwhile. IIRC, St Neots was the sweet spot for an additional stop between Peterborough and Stevenage, both of which are pretty much certain on all fast services post-HS2.

 

[bspahh]

Don't forget in a post-HS2-eastern-arm world the ECML will look somewhat different, with much less demand for non-stop fast services south of York to London. Adding in more stops at regional interchanges will very likely be worthwhile. IIRC, St Neots was the sweet spot for an additional stop between Peterborough and Stevenage, both of which are pretty much certain on all fast services post-HS2.

If the aim is to fund the East West line from new housing, then you will raise more cash by crossing the ECML at a new junction station. The houses near that then will have a premium with trains to London, Oxford and Cambridge. If you route the new line through existing developments, the trains will pick up passengers from the existing housing, but the line won't get any funding from those houses. I think this is the attraction for East West Rail of the route that crosses the ECML south of Sandy.

 

[TheDavibob]

Anywhere East of Cambridge will have a better connection to the ECML using the existing line to Peterborough, which has the advantage of being where the LNER trains stop (and I don't see that changing)

I'm not particularly disagreeing with this, but it is worth noting that from Cambridge *itself* connecting to the ECML is a pain, with an hourly direct service (to Peterborough) without the capacity to cope (and a rather looping, slow route), and a bitty indirect service via Ely, or going via Stevenage which doesn't have the same breadth of ECML destinations. Of course, more stops at Stevenage on ECML services would mostly alleviate this pain, or (pie in the sky) services from the north ECML actually going via Cambridge. Aside from these, were Sandy/St. Neots to get fast services with solid connections to a EWR service, it would be the primary route north from Cambridge.

 

[si404]

I would imagine that, if done well, Cambridge-Peterborough would be quicker via EW and ECML than via Ely. And journeys like Bedford-Stevenage would be useful, so how the ECML and E-W Rail interface is important for the scheme.

 

[camflyer]

Yes, I'd tend to agree, connecting to long distance LNER services is just not as important as you might think at first sight. Many of the places on the route have reasonable connections to long distance ECML destinations anyway via other routes, and EWR won't necessarily be faster or more direct.

At present I have a minimum of two changes to get to ECML destinations north of Peterborough. If that could be reduced to one with an EWR connection at Sandy/St Neots then that would make trips to Yorkshire/NE/Scotland much more attractive to do by rail than driving.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't remember, when EWR was first promoted to be reopened decades ago now, that anyone thought it would be a sort of 'Cam-Bed Overground' serving housing estates. IIRC the whole idea was to provide a fast East-West service that would obviate travelling via London. It seems to me that we have mission creep well in evidence here. If there is to be this local service, it seems to me that long loops or four tracking throughout will be required, otherwise the original intention will not be capable of being realised.
In my neck of the woods, visiting pax on local services waiting at Dawlish Warren for a passing express, for 7 minutes or more, could be forgiven in thinking their train had broken down.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't remember, when EWR was first promoted to be reopened decades ago now, that anyone thought it would be a sort of 'Cam-Bed Overground' serving housing estates. IIRC the whole idea was to provide a fast East-West service that would obviate travelling via London. It seems to me that we have mission creep well in evidence here. If there is to be this local service, it seems to me that long loops or four tracking throughout will be required, otherwise the original intention will not be capable of being realised.
In my neck of the woods, visiting pax on local services waiting at Dawlish Warren for a passing express, for 7 minutes or more, could be forgiven in thinking their train had broken down.

that isnt going to happen and the delivered product has changed substantially from the first principles.

 

[Tobbes]

that isnt going to happen and the delivered product has changed substantially from the first principles.

So will there be an express (c. <90 mins Cambs-Oxford) service?

 

[DarloRich]

Not until the section to cambridge opens if it ever does!

So will there be an express (c. <90 mins Cambs-Oxford) service?

 

[Tobbes]

Not until the section to cambridge opens if it ever does!

Of course - but it will open, and it will be important to have a regional express service as well as a local service.

 

[gallafent]

So will there be an express (c. <90 mins Cambs-Oxford) service?

The great circle distance between the two stations is only 108km, so I'd hope (but not expect, sadly!) it would be substantially faster than that. In order to compete with the by-then much more completed Oxford-Cambridge Expressway, even more so. It's 2h door to door from my house in Oxford to my friend's in Cambridge, even in rush hour traffic, using the current road network. Another aspect of its viability is that as well as the speed being sufficient, the fares will have to be a lot cheaper than the current options. Perhaps it will indeed end up being more of a “metro” service for the various towns and cities along its route,

As for Oxford <-> Cambridge, at the moment it's £46.85 for an off-peak return (using a Network Card), taking 2h30m station-to-station (3h8m door-to-door). That's more than a full tank of petrol, which would do the trip twice with some left in the tank.

Both these aspects need to be competitive to make any sense at all, especially when compared to a by-then normal electric car on the by-then more complete expressway. Whatever or whoever one blames for this (hidden subsidies etc.), it doesn't look great. 90 minutes and £30 off-peak return would make it look marginal to me … 60 minutes and £20 and I'd use the train every time. Let's see how it all pans out.

 

[Tobbes]

The great circle distance between the two stations is only 108km, so I'd hope (but not expect, sadly!) it would be substantially faster than that. In order to compete with the by-then much more completed Oxford-Cambridge Expressway, even more so. It's 2h door to door from my house in Oxford to my friend's in Cambridge, even in rush hour traffic, using the current road network. Another aspect of its viability is that as well as the speed being sufficient, the fares will have to be a lot cheaper than the current options. Perhaps it will indeed end up being more of a “metro” service for the various towns and cities along its route,

As for Oxford <-> Cambridge, at the moment it's £46.85 for an off-peak return (using a Network Card), taking 2h30m station-to-station (3h8m door-to-door). That's more than a full tank of petrol, which would do the trip twice with some left in the tank.

Both these aspects need to be competitive to make any sense at all, especially when compared to a by-then normal electric car on the by-then more complete expressway. Whatever or whoever one blames for this (hidden subsidies etc.), it doesn't look great. 90 minutes and £30 off-peak return would make it look marginal to me … 60 minutes and £20 and I'd use the train every time. Let's see how it all pans out.

I agree with all of this. I'd like to see a target express time of 70-75 mins.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course - but it will open, and it will be important to have a regional express service as well as a local service.

no idea and frankly I don't care. I am only interested in the connections between MK and other towns.

 

[Tobbes]

no idea and frankly I don't care. I am only interested in the connections between MK and other towns.

Only interested in MK for personal reasons, or because you think it is the point of the whole programme, @DarloRich ?

 

[DarloRich]

Only interested in MK for personal reasons, or because you think it is the point of the whole programme, @DarloRich ?

In all honesty: both.

I want good services from MK to new locations. It helps me and it helps people get to work in MK. It offers a choice for commuters who currently drive from the Buckingham > Bicester > Oxford corridor and will offer them a quicker route into work. It will also offer decent service from Bedford which might help get people of the A421 onto the train which at present simply isn't competitive.

I think the demand for services will be into MK, at least until the extension to Cambridge ( which i remain skeptical about) opens, especially if the housing planned for the Vale happens.

 

[Tobbes]

In all honesty: both.

I want good services from MK to new locations. It helps me and it helps people get to work in MK. It offers a choice for commuters who currently drive from the Buckingham > Bicester > Oxford corridor and will offer them a quicker route into work. It will also offer decent service from Bedford which might help get people of the A421 onto the train which at present simply isn't competitive.

I think the demand for services will be into MK, at least until the extension to Cambridge ( which i remain skeptical about) opens, especially if the housing planned for the Vale happens.

I'm sure that new services into MK will be welcome - and who knows, even a reinstatement to Buckingaham itself. But Cambs will make the whole route far more valuable, and through services will be a huge boon to the whole region.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure that new services into MK will be welcome - and who knows, even a reinstatement to Buckingaham itself. But Cambs will make the whole route far more valuable, and through services will be a huge boon to the whole region.

you are right - and it will drive lots of new housing - but it ain't going to happen for a while so i would prefer to focus on what will happen first.

 

[gallafent]

In all honesty: both.

I want good services from MK to new locations. It helps me and it helps people get to work in MK. It offers a choice for commuters who currently drive from the Buckingham > Bicester > Oxford corridor and will offer them a quicker route into work. It will also offer decent service from Bedford which might help get people of the A421 onto the train which at present simply isn't competitive.

I think the demand for services will be into MK, at least until the extension to Cambridge ( which i remain skeptical about) opens, especially if the housing planned for the Vale happens.

I agree that feeds to MK from various places will be useful. There's already loads of new-build housing near AVP (Alien vs Predator … oh, alright then, Aylesbury Vale Parkway), and loads in Bicester (with a lot more to come), so with plenty of employment in MK (and Oxford / Culham / Milton Park (at Didcot) etc.) this “arc” does look very useful for people commuting in both (all four!) directions (not only to MK, but also down to Oxford and Didcot). I too will definitely welcome anything that reduces congestion on the A34 and A41, even if the rail service doesn't actually help with my journeys directly in its early incarnations!

 

[PeterC]

I don't remember, when EWR was first promoted to be reopened decades ago now, that anyone thought it would be a sort of 'Cam-Bed Overground' serving housing estates. IIRC the whole idea was to provide a fast East-West service that would obviate travelling via London. It seems to me that we have mission creep well in evidence here. If there is to be this local service, it seems to me that long loops or four tracking throughout will be required, otherwise the original intention will not be capable of being realised.
In my neck of the woods, visiting pax on local services waiting at Dawlish Warren for a passing express, for 7 minutes or more, could be forgiven in thinking their train had broken down.

My recollection of the original announcements was of it being sold simply as a nostalgic reinstatement on the "Varsity Line". The presence of a huge new town at MK and expansion of Bedford didn't seem to come into the equation. (I am talking about how it was marketed to the public not about any underlying cost benefit analysis)

 

[camflyer]

In all honesty: both.

I want good services from MK to new locations. It helps me and it helps people get to work in MK. It offers a choice for commuters who currently drive from the Buckingham > Bicester > Oxford corridor and will offer them a quicker route into work. It will also offer decent service from Bedford which might help get people of the A421 onto the train which at present simply isn't competitive.

I think the demand for services will be into MK, at least until the extension to Cambridge ( which i remain skeptical about) opens, especially if the housing planned for the Vale happens.

Surely including the Cambridge link is fundamental to the EastWestRail scheme as a "strategic" cross-country route linking East Anglia, ECML, MML and WCML without having to go via London, otherwise it's little more than a Bedford - MK- Oxford loca line.

It's still too early for service patterns to be announced but it will be interesting to see the balance between express and local services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's still too early for service patterns to be announced but it will be interesting to see the balance between express and local services.

Proposals for the western part have been out there for years. They are basically thus, if I recall correctly:

1tph Oxford-Bedford not via MKC, semi fast on the Marston Vale (I half recall it would call only at Woburn Sands and Ridgmont)
2tph Oxford-MKC
1tph Aylesbury-MKC
1tph Marston Vale stopper (basically as at present)

There are very few stations proposed for the western part (basically just Islip, Bicester Village and Winslow, I think?) so there aren't many possible patterns. Wouldn't surprise me if the Aylesbury one served Winslow, all of the Oxford ones at Oxford Parkway and Bicester Village and a bitty service at Islip[1] similar to what it gets now.

[1] The local residents actually requested this as they don't want it turning into an A34 Parkway in preference to Oxford Parkway.

 

[camflyer]

Thanks - but I meant service patterns for the central section and for the whole route.

 

[DarloRich]

Thanks - but I meant service patterns for the central section and for the whole route.

the only bit we know about today is the section from Oxford to Bedford. The rest is an unknown and wont be known for some time. Personally i wouldn't worry about that yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks - but I meant service patterns for the central section and for the whole route.

In all the years I’ve been reading online info about EWR I don’t recall there being any service patterns proposed east of Bedford.