Could the class 707s be used for the Cathcart Circle Lines?

[Esker-pades]

Split from the 385 discussion thread:

I don't think many know the end plan for the 385s! They don't appear well suited to the Cathcart Circle at all- it would actually suit a more metro style unit with more standing room and walk through ability like the 707s. Are there not Circle diagrams that interwork with Gourock/Canal services? Sure the 314 I got from Pollokshields West turned into a Wemyss Bay.

The 385s on Cathcart Circle are sans first class. Don't see the value of it on the via Paisley services- they really are just commuter routes with short to medium journey times and doubtful many would avail of it- maybe on the Ayr line but then you have a split fleet.

Wonder if its just a few peak runs around the circle for 385s? Dont think they are going up the Neilston branch .

Yeah a 345 or 707 would be better for Cathcart Cirlcle .

I’ve been thinking for a while that the 707s would be a decent choice for Cathcart. Would fit in all the 120m platforms, would pretty much fit on the Canal line, good layout internally for the type of work & freeing up the 385s to be purely E&G/SDA units to get rid of the 365s and provide some spare capacity for EK or Barrhead electrification. Would also get the 318/320s onto purely low level jobs & the odd Lanark. Could probably get Siemens to maintain them in the 380 facility at Shields. Makes sense on so many levels, so pretty much guaranteed not to happen!

The 707s would be a decent fit however no toilets. Might able to be retrofitted when doing other work necessary . Given Siemens 380s are here and 5 car would be about right for the Cathcart Circle network and should fit into the headshunt at Neilston. Guaranteed not to happen!

However the lack of toilets probably isn't that much of an issue considering the 314s which are getting replaced also don't have toilets.

True but given the moaning and mumping of the Inverclyde public about the 314s you'd think it was the worst thing in the history of the world! Longest they were was 1 hour end to end. Plus you'd want the flexibility to stick them on longer routes.

How much conversion work would be needed on 707s?

The first two of the class had a transformer/pantograph fitted as part of testing at Siemens' factory; I believe that's most of the work needed. Certainly they've done all the design work and proved it all works, and done it in the opposite direction (removing them from the first two), so I can't imagine it would be vast.

Would be very unlikely for ScotRail to have a small fleet of 5-car units when it mainly seems to prefer 3/4 car sets.

There are some diagrams which run on both the Cathcart Circle and Inverclyde lines. Surely a small fleet for the Cathcarts would present more problems than they would solve?

 

[youngac]

707s would be useful for Cathcart Circle and Argyle Line services if infrastructure could be improved to accommodate 10 carriage trains (particularly on the Argyle Line). Their design is certainly something that ScotRail should be considering when 318/320 withdrawal is planned in a decade or so.

 

[snookertam]

If what everyone is saying about those units is correct then yes, they'd be a decent fit if they were restricted to single units in passenger service. But with the number of electric units ScotRail will have by the time the 385s are introduced it'd be difficult to see where they could be stabled/accommodated. On the plus side it could allow for an increase in frequency though.

What is more likely is that when the 318/320s are withdrawn, probably around the late 2020s, there will be an order for 20m length 3 and 6 car metro style units for the Glasgow area network that these units currently operate. It would be a sensible move for these to include new units for the Cathcart routes as well as the Paisley Canal branch.

In the short term, I think we will see a mix of Classes 318/320/380/385 which would be some amount of variety on what is essentially a short, self-contained network of services.

 

[DPWH]

But in 10 year's time technology will have moved on so that the 707s won't be the bees knees, but some other unit will.

 

[adrock1976]

I have mentioned this recently in the "Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed" thread that when Glasgow decides to bring back trams, the Cathcart lines could be converted as a second phase after building a Queen Street - Central - Broomielaw - Clyde Arc Bridge - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Glasgow International Airport - Abbotsinch - Paisley Gilmour Street - Paisley Cross line.

Assistance in designing, construction, and conversion could be provided by Manchester, as they are the experts when it comes to bringing back trams.

 

[Kite159]

In theory will it be possible to get Siemens to build additional coaches to extend the fleet to 6 coaches, maybe have it as an additional motor coach with a toilet installed?

That way it will be fixed formation 6 coach units, and any stations where the platforms are not long enough and can't be extended SDO be used? [and track work at Neilston to insert crossovers before the station so trains didn't have to head into the turnback siding]

 

[Esker-pades]

In theory will it be possible to get Siemens to build additional coaches to extend the fleet to 6 coaches, maybe have it as an additional motor coach with a toilet installed?

That way it will be fixed formation 6 coach units, and any stations where the platforms are not long enough and can't be extended SDO be used? [and track work at Neilston to insert crossovers before the station so trains didn't have to head into the turnback siding]

So, a 717 but weird?

 

[Kite159]

So, a 717 but weird?

But with a toilet

(And a full sized cab for the drivers as there won't be a requirement for the emergency escape hatch)

 

[Mag_seven]

I have mentioned this recently in the "Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed" thread that when Glasgow decides to bring back trams, the Cathcart lines could be converted as a second phase after building a Queen Street - Central - Broomielaw - Clyde Arc Bridge - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Glasgow International Airport - Abbotsinch - Paisley Gilmour Street - Paisley Cross line.

Assistance in designing, construction, and conversion could be provided by Manchester, as they are the experts when it comes to bringing back trams.

Keep the Cathcart Circle heavy rail please. Don't forget it also forms a diversionary route.

 

[adrock1976]

Keep the Cathcart Circle heavy rail please. Don't forget it also forms a diversionary route.

So does the ex Rutherglen & Coatbridge Railway now that is also electrified.

Have any trains been diverted over that route since the wires went up?

 

[Clansman]

As much as I'm a fan of the initial idea, I'm much with @snookertam on this one.

From my point of view, the situation with the Cathcart Circle is unique because the 314 fleet was in dire need of replacing but the rest of the greater Glasgow EMU fleet (within reason) wasn't. So really, when you've got a small and outdated fleet largely concentrated on one of a dozen similarly natured routes, the only viable alternative would have been what we're currently seeing. Whereby the introduction of the 385s allows for the 314s to be scrapped.

It's worth bearing in mind that the 707s aren't coming off-lease until later this year, if all at Derby remains on track with their replacements - so cascading them would have probably further prolonged the date of the entire 314 fleet's death warrant well into 2020-21, which isn't in the interests of ScotRail, who could then have up to five or six different fleets working on these lines at any given time, nor the passengers who regularly endure them and complain about them day in day out. You've then got to work around the constraints of losing the operational and capacity flexibility that is gained with having a fleet of 3 coach EMUs as opposed to a fleet fixed with 5 coaches. If they were fixed with 6 coaches and there were enough of them to replace the 314/318/320/334s in one transition, then it'd make a perfect case for cascading them to Scotland, if in such a case this was endorsed by ScotRail to do so.

Whilst it doesn't seem ideal that the 385s are being used on the Cathcart Circle (and indeed it's easy to argue the 707s are more suited), it's the best out've all the solutions which don't involve a wholesale replacement of the entire BR era Glasgow suburban EMU fleet.

I imagine that the procurement of rolling stock to replace the 318/320s (and possibly 334s) will include accomodating the Cathcart Circle and Paisley Canal lines, and at a guess, will be probably be the most likely scenario in the next decade.

 

[CM]

Would it not be a better idea to add an extra motor car to the 707s to make them x30 fixed 6 car sets, use them on the Helensburgh/Milngavie to Edinburgh services and in turn displace the 334s onto current 314/318/320 workings? The 334s could then be used to replace the 318s and possibly the 320s as well.

 

[scosutsut]

Would the 37 strong 350/2 fleet not be a better fit for Scotrail? (I'm assuming cross compatibility with the 380 fleet)

That would allow the departure of the 318s and a chunk of 320s whilst gaining a capacity increase. Fits with the Scotrail 3 and 4 car EMU set methodology too.

Yes you'd need SDO in a lot of places to run 7 or 8 car but let's face it not building extra capacity in advance of demand is what's got a lot of the network to where it is today. Plan for tomorrow, not just today etc.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

No reason not to send the 707s up north in theory. 5 car trains replacing 3s and 6s which aggregate themselves out (we assume) over the course of a peak period to prove themselves an increase in overall capacity. Whether they are better suited to the routes via Central low level or Queen Street low level or on the Cathcart and Ayrshire / Clyde routes towards Paisley I wouldn't know...

 

[Kite159]

Would the 37 strong 350/2 fleet not be a better fit for Scotrail? (I'm assuming cross compatibility with the 380 fleet)

That would allow the departure of the 318s and a chunk of 320s whilst gaining a capacity increase. Fits with the Scotrail 3 and 4 car EMU set methodology too.

Yes you'd need SDO in a lot of places to run 7 or 8 car but let's face it not building extra capacity in advance of demand is what's got a lot of the network to where it is today. Plan for tomorrow, not just today etc.

You would probably need to improve the door opening time before releasing a 350 onto something like a Cathcart service service

 

[scosutsut]

You would probably need to improve the door opening time before releasing a 350 onto something like a Cathcart service service

I'd never looked at the timetable for the circle prior to now. I see your point!

 

[route101]

So does the ex Rutherglen & Coatbridge Railway now that is also electrified.

Have any trains been diverted over that route since the wires went up?

Is that the Whifflet?

 

[Highlandspring]

So does the ex Rutherglen & Coatbridge Railway now that is also electrified.

Have any trains been diverted over that route since the wires went up?

Yes, on many occasions.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would the 37 strong 350/2 fleet not be a better fit for Scotrail? (I'm assuming cross compatibility with the 380 fleet)...

There may be similar components under the skin, but they almost definitely won’t functionally couple because the 380 changed the electrical connector position compared to older Desiro UK, the hinged gangway is the reason.

 

[route101]

Yes, on many occasions.

Have 390s been via Whifflet?

 

[Highlandspring]

Have 390s been via Whifflet?

No, they’re not allowed due to clearance issues.

 

[scosutsut]

There may be similar components under the skin, but they almost definitely won’t functionally couple because the 380 changed the electrical connector position compared to older Desiro UK, the hinged gangway is the reason.

Thanks for the explanation. That's a shame.

Sounds a bit like mobile phone manufacturers desire to change charger types, for marginal gains, I mean built in obsolescence!

 

[gingertom]

apologies for taking it a bit ot.
Some time ago Scotrail (& Alex Hynes) announced that the Edinburgh- Helensburgh/Milngavie services were "nearly all formed of 6 coaches". Would it not make sense for these to be formed of a dedicated fleet of suitable 6-car units rather than pairs of 3-car 334s? 6-car units would have a small increase in capacity by only having 2 cabs instead of 4. The 334s could then operate Cathcart circle services allowing the 318/320s to be retired/cascaded. A 6-car Flirt with 4 Jacobs bogies and 3 powered standard ones would be 3900BHP, more than enough for the route.
Thoughts?

 

[gsnedders]

apologies for taking it a bit ot.
Some time ago Scotrail (& Alex Hynes) announced that the Edinburgh- Helensburgh/Milngavie services were "nearly all formed of 6 coaches". Would it not make sense for these to be formed of a dedicated fleet of suitable 6-car units rather than pairs of 3-car 334s? 6-car units would have a small increase in capacity by only having 2 cabs instead of 4. The 334s could then operate Cathcart circle services allowing the 318/320s to be retired/cascaded. A 6-car Flirt with 4 Jacobs bogies and 3 powered standard ones would be 3900BHP, more than enough for the route.
Thoughts?

Those that don't run all the way east have plenty of 3-car services still, and are interworked with the Edinburgh services.

The question is really whether the extra cost of running them around empty for most of the day is worthwhile, plenty of services are near dead outside of the peaks and really don't need more than three cars, versus the operational complexity of splitting/joining and having sidings available etc.; the fact many run as 6-car throughout the day tends to suggest it's not worthwhile, so I expect the eventual replacement will be longer fixed-formation services.

 

[Highlandspring]

There are a few joins and splits during the day at Milngavie and Helensburgh.

 

[gsnedders]

There are a few joins and splits during the day at Milngavie and Helensburgh.

Oh, I'm not saying there aren't, it's just there are relatively few compared with how many mostly empty 6-car trains there are during the day!

And, regardless, we should expect enough stock for everything to run as 6-car during the peak, I'd expect, given current capacity constraints, so we'll have an increase in number of units anyway.

 

[Rick1984]

I've said before the Hitachi AT100 would be a good fit for Cathcart, Argyle and Canal lines. Probably fixed 6 car formation with possibility of extension to 7 in future.
Would provide commonality with the class 385.

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at100-metro

 

[43096]

Would it not be a better idea to add an extra motor car to the 707s to make them x30 fixed 6 car sets, use them on the Helensburgh/Milngavie to Edinburgh services and in turn displace the 334s onto current 314/318/320 workings? The 334s could then be used to replace the 318s and possibly the 320s as well.

Agreed, and that would add some extra capacity (300 cars vs 285) - the 707s would also need toilets adding. However, I think the aim should be for all current 318/320/334 workings to be 6-car, which might need some extra sets - all possible as the Desiro City is a current design. I would, though, leave the 334s on the Edinburgh workings as they are vastly superior comfort-wise to the 707s with their ironing boards.

 

[SC318250]

Was it not mentioned before that the 334 units werent suited to the Cathcart Circle lines?
Electrifying the East Kilbride/Barrhead/Kilmarnock line could see 318/320 operate these services with Newton/Neilston/Cathcart and Paisley Canal until around 2030.

Fixed 6-7 car units on Airdrie-Bathgate line could see 334 on to Argyle line as 6 cars as well as Airdrie-Balloch services

To release some capacity at Central station, might be worth diverting Edinburgh via Shotts all stopper, after Cambuslang to Central low level (non stop from Cambuslang), then ecs to Exhibitiob Siding to reverse

 

[380101]

Was it not mentioned before that the 334 units werent suited to the Cathcart Circle lines?

Limited to 2 trips in a row due to the traction motors overheating as a result of the low speeds. 380s and 385s are also limited to 2 trips in a row for the same reason.