A linguistic question. 'And all' to mean 'as well'?

[EM2]

In East London and Essex (and probably many other places), 'an' all' is often used to mean 'as well', as in 'You lot can get lost an' all!'.
This is a different usage to meaning 'everyone', as in 'They all turned up! Yer Mum, yer Dad, yer sister, her kids, yer cousin and all', like the folk song that ends with 'Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all'.

So, how did this happen?

 

[HH]

Well it's in Uncle Tom Cobley, which is over 200 years old. According to Collins, it can be traced back at least to 1708, but they don't give any detail.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/and-all

See graph at bottom.

 

[SteveP29]

An all is used in the north east of England for as well

 

[DarloRich]

In East London and Essex (and probably many other places), 'an' all' is often used to mean 'as well', as in 'You lot can get lost an' all!'.
This is a different usage to meaning 'everyone', as in 'They all turned up! Yer Mum, yer Dad, yer sister, her kids, yer cousin and all', like the folk song that ends with 'Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all'.

So, how did this happen?

An all is used in the north east of England for as well

Well aye. Its used in north east an all like.

( and Yorkshire and i suspect almost everywhere. I doubt the cockernees did it first)

 

[Calthrop]

Concerning "one meaning derived from another" -- I think it's generally reckoned that language often develops and evolves, randomly: someone with a feeling for such things comes up with a new usage, and it happens to catch on. Logic and making strict sense, play little or no part.

 

[Busaholic]

In East London and Essex (and probably many other places), 'an' all' is often used to mean 'as well', as in 'You lot can get lost an' all!'.
This is a different usage to meaning 'everyone', as in 'They all turned up! Yer Mum, yer Dad, yer sister, her kids, yer cousin and all', like the folk song that ends with 'Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all'.

So, how did this happen?

I was a teenager in S.E. London in the 1960s and I seem to remember it coming into prominence in the controversial comedy TV series 'Til Death Us Do Part' starring Warren Mitchell as the foul-mouthed bigot Alf Garnett. It was set in the East End (specifically, Tower Hamlets iirc) and was written by Johnny Speight, an Eastender of the old school. 'You can get lost an' all' was certainly something Alf would, and did, say. We were too refined in S.E. London to use the phrase, being as how we were too busy cutting the crusts off cucumber sandwiches,

 

[HH]

BTW I meant to say that I disagree that the use in Uncle Tom Cobley (who's a bit less posh than UT Cobleigh) is different. Both mean "as well".

 

[Calthrop]

BTW I meant to say that I disagree that the use in Uncle Tom Cobley (who's a bit less posh than UT Cobleigh) is different. Both mean "as well".

I've always seen the meanings as different -- "UTC and all" implying "plus UTC, and also a whole load of other people etc.: viz., Mr. Cobley and his sisters and cousins and aunts, and all his wife's family, and his farm animals, and..."