Alsager to Manchester via Crewe

[andrewscfc]

Hi,

Just considering getting a season ticket from Alsager to Manchester but the national rail planner seems to suggest via kidsgrove as the permitted route. Would it be permitted to go via Crewe? On the routeing guide, Crewe is listed as an associated routeing point.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[Puffing Devil]

This is interesting.... all of the routing points fail the routing point check on the online checker. I have no idea how you're supposed to find a route with no valid routing point. Waiting now for an expert to drop in.

 

[alistairlees]

Shortest route or within 3 miles will do. Via Crewe is more than 3 miles more than via Kidsgrove I expect (but haven't checked)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,

Just considering getting a season ticket from Alsager to Manchester but the national rail planner seems to suggest via kidsgrove as the permitted route. Would it be permitted to go via Crewe? On the routeing guide, Crewe is listed as an associated routeing point.

Thanks
Andrew

Yes, via Crewe is a permitted route as it is within 3 miles of the shortest route, and there is no easement that disallows it. (However you cannot go both via Crewe and Handforth.)

For the same price as a season ticket to Manchester Stations you can also get a season ticket to any of the stations on the lines out of Manchester until (inclusive) Flixton, Walkden, Clifton, Guide Bridge and Eccles. Depending on your typical travelling patterns, it may represent a fair amount of additional "free" value to get your season ticket to those stations instead of Manchester. All except Flixton are valid only via Manchester; the season to Flixton is also valid via Crewe and Warrington as that is actually the shortest route to Flixton.

This is interesting.... all of the routing points fail the routing point check on the online checker. I have no idea how you're supposed to find a route with no valid routing point. Waiting now for an expert to drop in.

If there are no appropriate Routeing Points then there are no mapped routes, only direct trains, the shortest route (+ up to 3 miles), or those routes permitted by an easement (there are no relevant easements). I don't know why the Routeing Point Calculator is struggling with Manchester - it is claiming that there were no relevant NFM64 fares! But if you get a season ticket to another station, such as Flixton, then it clearly passes Manchester as an appropriate destination Routeing Point.

 

[JB_B]

To be fair to rp_calc, I couldn't find any relevant NFM64 fares for the SPT/MAN (starting from AGS) fare-check either (although i've not looked into what's going wrong there - I don't think it could be a NEW STATION issue). The other origin routeing points (Crewe and Stoke) are clearly fails.

Going via Crewe then Gatley is within 3m but only if you avoid going via the Airport - so you'd need to be patient.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

To be fair to rp_calc, I couldn't find any relevant NFM64 fares for the SPT/MAN (starting from AGS) fare-check either (although i've not looked into what's going wrong there - I don't think it could be a NEW STATION issue). The other origin routeing points (Crewe and Stoke) are clearly fails.

Going via Crewe then Gatley is within 3m but only if you avoid going via the Airport - so you'd need to be patient.

Even if that is what the data says, ATOS MixingDeck will sell Alsager to Flixton season tickets with itineraries via Crewe, Wilmslow and Handforth (on the Northern stoppers or Virgin Manchester expresses), via Crewe, Wilmslow and Manchester Airport, via Macclesfield, or via Crewe and Warrington.

So if you want to guarantee maximum contractual validity of the season ticket, a screen video (easy to do on Windows 10 - press Windows+G and select the "Yes, this is a game" tickbox, then start recording) showing that all of these route options are permitted, before buying the season ticket with the route that is most useful, would be a good idea. You even get some Nectar points!

 

[andrewscfc]

Thanks for all your help, really appreciate the detailed responses. So with that season ticket Alsager to Manchester I could take routes via both Kidsgrove or Crewe as I wished?

That would be very useful as Crewe is better in the morning while Kidsgrove can be better in the evening.

Thanks!

 

[Bertie the bus]

So with that season ticket Alsager to Manchester I could take routes via both Kidsgrove or Crewe as I wished?

I think the answer is no you couldn't. Unfortunately some people always seem more interested in showing how much they know than answering a simple question.

There are virtually no trains that run via Gatley but not the airport so if that is the only valid route via Crewe it is effectively useless.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for all your help, really appreciate the detailed responses. So with that season ticket Alsager to Manchester I could take routes via both Kidsgrove or Crewe as I wished?

That would be very useful as Crewe is better in the morning while Kidsgrove can be better in the evening.

Thanks!

Yes, itineraries are offered on both routes when buying your season ticket through certain sites (as linked to). The route via Kidsgrove is perhaps the obvious one, so if you wanted to use it via Crewe, it might be useful to buy the ticket with an itinerary via Manchester Airport or on a service via Handforth, to demonstrate unquestionable validity that way.

As stated, a ticket to Flixton offers a not insubstantial increase in valid routes (via Warrington, which can be used to travel Crewe-Warrington on a long distance trip, or to get to Manchester via Warrington if you ever need) for no additional cost, so if it were me, that would be what I would buy.

I think the answer is no you couldn't. Unfortunately some people always seem more interested in showing how much they know than answering a simple question.

There are virtually no trains that run via Gatley but not the airport so if that is the only valid route via Crewe it is effectively useless.

Assuming you're referring to the likes of my post, that's not accurate. Before denigrating others it's worthwhile checking that you're correct!

The validity of a ticket is not always limited to its theoretical, by the book, validity. You can also use it along any itinerary provided by a site that you book through. As linked to above, ATOS MixingDeck season ticket websites will sell a Kidsgrove-Flixton season in conjunction with an itinerary on the routes I stated, and thus those are contractually valid; there is no need to wait for the very limited services avoiding the airport.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Even if that is what the data says, ATOS MixingDeck will sell Alsager to Flixton season tickets with itineraries via Crewe, Wilmslow and Handforth (on the Northern stoppers or Virgin Manchester expresses), via Crewe, Wilmslow and Manchester Airport, via Macclesfield, or via Crewe and Warrington.

But that is most likely because the Atos/Worldline WebTIS uses a higher threshold for the 3 mile rule than all other journey planners. As journey planners are not subject to RDG accreditation, there is probably no obvious answer to this anomaly.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But that is most likely because the Atos/Worldline WebTIS uses a higher threshold for the 3 mile rule than all other journey planners. As journey planners are not subject to RDG accreditation, there is probably no obvious answer to this anomaly.

In my view, it would be unreasonable to permit travel via Styal and yet to limit it to the almost non-existent airport avoiders. Perhaps there ought to be a positive easement... no, that would never happen under the iron fist of the RDG!

 

[alistairlees]

But that is most likely because the Atos/Worldline WebTIS uses a higher threshold for the 3 mile rule than all other journey planners. As journey planners are not subject to RDG accreditation, there is probably no obvious answer to this anomaly.

Journey planners aren’t. But ticket retailers are. So they should not be selling incorrect tickets.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Journey planners aren’t. But ticket retailers are. So they should not be selling incorrect tickets.

Well I was referring more to the inconsistency between different systems, rather than implying that the Worldline system is any way non-compliant, since I don't think it is. The instructions for journey planners just say:
The journey is permitted if it is the shortest distance between the origin and destination, or is within a specified margin of the length of the shortest route, if an allowed margin has been specified.
There is nothing about who can specify the "allowed margin", or how and where it might be specified! So as I said I don't think there is anything non-compliant about different journey planners having different margins, which of course isn't very ideal from the point of view of clarity for the passenger.

 

[sheff1]

I think the answer is no you couldn't. Unfortunately some people always seem more interested in showing how much they know than answering a simple question.

The answer is yes. Unfortunately some people seem more interested in showing how little they know than answering a simple question correctly.

 

[andrewscfc]

Yes, itineraries are offered on both routes when buying your season ticket through certain sites (as linked to). The route via Kidsgrove is perhaps the obvious one, so if you wanted to use it via Crewe, it might be useful to buy the ticket with an itinerary via Manchester Airport or on a service via Handforth, to demonstrate unquestionable validity that way.

As stated, a ticket to Flixton offers a not insubstantial increase in valid routes (via Warrington, which can be used to travel Crewe-Warrington on a long distance trip, or to get to Manchester via Warrington if you ever need) for no additional cost, so if it were me, that would be what I would buy.


Assuming you're referring to the likes of my post, that's not accurate. Before denigrating others it's worthwhile checking that you're correct!

The validity of a ticket is not always limited to its theoretical, by the book, validity. You can also use it along any itinerary provided by a site that you book through. As linked to above, ATOS MixingDeck season ticket websites will sell a Kidsgrove-Flixton season in conjunction with an itinerary on the routes I stated, and thus those are contractually valid; there is no need to wait for the very limited services avoiding the airport.

So, if I got a ticket to Flixton I could use both a Crewe based route or a Kidsgrove based one? Or would the Flixton choice merely allow me to travel via Crewe?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So, if I got a ticket to Flixton I could use both a Crewe based route or a Kidsgrove based one? Or would the Flixton choice merely allow me to travel via Crewe?

I am able to get Alsager-Flixton itineraries via Crewe and Warrington, via Crewe and Manchester Airport, via Crewe and Handforth, or via Kidsgrove and Macclesfield on the ATOS MixingDeck season ticket website. I would suggest buying your season ticket in conjunction with the itinerary which you consider most "objectionable", if any. (Preferably screen video or screenshot the available routes)

 

[andrewscfc]

I am able to get Alsager-Flixton itineraries via Crewe and Warrington, via Crewe and Manchester Airport, via Crewe and Handforth, or via Kidsgrove and Macclesfield on the ATOS MixingDeck season ticket website. I would suggest buying your season ticket in conjunction with the itinerary which you consider most "objectionable", if any. (Preferably screen video or screenshot the available routes)

On TP express I can't get a season ticket purchase page with an itinerary pictured with it. On the regular purchase page, I can indeed get routes via either point for an open return. Is there a better site for this sort of thing?
Thanks again

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

On TP express I can't get a season ticket purchase page with an itinerary pictured with it. On the regular purchase page, I can indeed get routes via either point for an open return. Is there a better site for this sort of thing?
Thanks again

As far as I am seeing, you can't buy a season ticket on the MixingDeck based sites without having and itinerary there and back. Are you able to see what ImI referring to if you search via this link?

 

[bb21]

Meanwhile in the real world...

Is it reasonable going via Crewe? Undoubtedly yes.

I await your first report of running into problems with this ticket going via Crewe. I suspect the answer is going to be "never".

Your question suitably answered in under 50 words. We don't half over-complicate things here sometimes.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Meanwhile in the real world...

Is it reasonable going via Crewe? Undoubtedly yes.

I await your first report of running into problems with this ticket going via Crewe. I suspect the answer is going to be "never".

Your question suitably answered in under 50 words. We don't half over-complicate things here sometimes.

Indeed - the recommendation of getting an itinerary applies mainly because technically speaking some of the offered routes are not "meant" to be valid.

 

[Starmill]

As far as local custom and practice goes you won't find any opposition to using a Manchester to Alsager ticket via Stockport and Crewe. I've used that ticket several times to break my journey at Crewe and on TfW between Crewe and Manchester via Stockport.

Even our resident @Bletchleyite could not argue against this one.

I've also used the ticket via Stoke-on-Trent, because that was quicker, with permission from the guard (and indeed the ticket office - the booking clerk couldn't understand why there was a question over if it were allowed!). It's fortunate that I didn't come here to ask for advice before doing so, eh.

 

[andrewscfc]

As far as I am seeing, you can't buy a season ticket on the MixingDeck based sites without having and itinerary there and back. Are you able to see what ImI referring to if you search via this link?

I could only get an itinerary displayed when I added 'via Crewe' or 'via Kidsgrove'. For what it's worth I'd probably rather get a ticket to Manchester Stations than Flixton I'd imagine the ticket inspectors getting off at Piccadilly daily with a ticket to Flixton, may get confused and I have to explain myself! I'm sure it's valid but just wonder if it would cause more trouble than it's worth?

As far as local custom and practice goes you won't find any opposition to using a Manchester to Alsager ticket via Stockport and Crewe. I've used that ticket several times to break my journey at Crewe and on TfW between Crewe and Manchester via Stockport.

Even our resident @Bletchleyite could not argue against this one.

I've also used the ticket via Stoke-on-Trent, because that was quicker, with permission from the guard (and indeed the ticket office - the booking clerk couldn't understand why there was a question over if it were allowed!). It's fortunate that I didn't come here to ask for advice before doing so, eh.

Thanks for the first hand experience, I did suspect in the real world you wouldn't get any issues, just would make the network needlessly restrictive. Just wanted to check given the large financial outlay involved.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I could only get an itinerary displayed when I added 'via Crewe' or 'via Kidsgrove'. For what it's worth I'd probably rather get a ticket to Manchester Stations than Flixton I'd imagine the ticket inspectors getting off at Piccadilly daily with a ticket to Flixton. I'm sure it's valid but just wonder if it would cause more trouble than it's worth?

It's difficult to say whether there would be any problems; perhaps you might like to try it a couple of times with daily tickets just to see what happens. If it does end up being more hassle than the additional validity is worth to you, you can always do a changeover to Manchester Stations (or perhaps at least Salford Crescent) - this is free of charge as the two routes cost the same (and there is no administration fee for this particular kind of change). It can be done on a monthly or longer ticket at any point where the ticket has at least a week of validity remaining.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It seems an oddity, ignoring season tickets, and just getting a day ticket, Virgins website denied all knowledge of a fare. Crosscountry would only off the 06:44 outwards! Just drive to Kidsgrove or Crewe, or get the 3 bus!

 

[kieron]

Just to say, an easement was added on Wednesday to permit travel via Crewe on tickets between Alsager and Manchester or Salford.

And I have looked into why rp_calc isn't finding suitable fares for Stockport.

In NFM64, there's a single fare from ALSAGER to MANCHESTER STNS and fares from STOCKPORT to MANCHESTER CTLZ. rp_calc may simply not realise that both of these cover Manchester Piccadilly.

This may be because the fare data they use doesn't list MANCHESTER CTLZ as being a group location, and they haven't added it manually.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just to say, an easement was added on Wednesday to permit travel via Crewe on tickets between Alsager and Manchester or Salford.

And I have looked into why rp_calc isn't finding suitable fares for Stockport.

In NFM64, there's a single fare from ALSAGER to MANCHESTER STNS and fares from STOCKPORT to MANCHESTER CTLZ. rp_calc may simply not realise that both of these cover Manchester Piccadilly.

This may be because the fare data they use doesn't list MANCHESTER CTLZ as being a group location, and they haven't added it manually.

Well done on whoever in the RDG fixed (or at least tried to fix) this issue so quickly - praise where it's due!

 

[andrewscfc]

Well done on whoever in the RDG fixed (or at least tried to fix) this issue so quickly - praise where it's due!

That's great, national rail planner now includes it in routes. Well done!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's great, national rail planner now includes it in routes. Well done!

Sometimes raising an issue on this forum can lead to surprisingly quick results - both positive (as here), and negative (as in the case of an anomaly). Be careful what you post, but if it is an issue concerning validity not being there where it ought to be there, feel free to post. If not, PM someone you trust not to leak it!