No Darlington York Northern Rail Service

[Basher]

Why has Darlington - York no Northern Rail service? Us northerners can not get the best advantage from the cheaper rover tickets, as we have to go to Newcastle, then Carlisle, then York / Leeds areas. Its almost impossible to do the trip and return in a day. I'v emailed Northern Rail about this issue, but never had a reply.

 

[VT 390]

Why has Darlington - York no Northern Rail service? Us northerners can not get the best advantage from the cheaper rover tickets, as we have to go to Newcastle, then Carlisle, then York / Leeds areas. Its almost impossible to do the trip and return in a day. I'v emailed Northern Rail about this issue, but never had a reply.

I think it is because the section of line between York and Northallerton is very busy with services already which include:

• 2 XC tph
• 2 LNER tph
• 3 TPE tph
• plus additional Grand Central and Freight services

This means that on that section of Railway there at least 7/8 tph each direction so there is not much capacity left for a Northern service which would almost certainly have a lower top speed meaning it would take up more capacity. Also there is not really the need for it as there are 5 or 6 tph from Darlington to York.
If you want to use the rover tickets to Leeds/York you could just buy an additional ticket from Darlington to York.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why has Darlington - York no Northern Rail service?

Because it is a main line and there is no need.

The "stopper" in this part of the world is run by TPE. Northern haven't run north of York on the ECML since all the Middlesbrough trains were transferred to TPE (much to the benefit of the town).

 

[The Lad]

Well, they don't run much in passenger service but do some ECS

 

[sprinterguy]

The "stopper" in this part of the world is run by TPE. Northern haven't run north of York on the ECML since all the Middlesbrough trains were transferred to TPE (much to the benefit of the town).

Indeed: Transpennine Express services were part of the North East franchise until they were hived off into their own separate operation in 2004. Hence, no services by the local regional operator south of Darlington these days.

 

[causton]

What additional services would they run if they did?

There are no 'local' stations to provide a 'stopping' service, nevermind the lack of capacity and other reasons others have posted!

 

[TBY-Paul]

Whilst I agree there is limited capacity between Northallerton & Newcastle on the ECML, the same doesn't apply south of Northallerton. There's nothing to stop Northern running a stopping service from York to Newcastle via Yarm, Eaglescliffe & Stockton.

I'm hoping that once the Northern Powerhouse Rail* report is published there is some reference to reopening Leamside to free up capacity on the ECML which could/ should be used for more and better local/inter regional services.

The North-east is being held back, in growth terms, because of poor transport links. The area has fallen so far behind as far as rail links are concerned it will take more than one intervention to catch up, which is probably why it will never happen, and in 50 years time the North East will still be considered a lost cause.
* the mood music coming from NPR suggests, north of York is only going to included a few minor adjustments to the ECML to speed up the line to Newcastle, which doesn't help freeing up capacity for local/regional services.

 

[Megafuss]

Whilst I agree there is limited capacity between Northallerton & Newcastle on the ECML, the same doesn't apply south of Northallerton. There's nothing to stop Northern running a stopping service from York to Newcastle via Yarm, Eaglescliffe & Stockton.

I'm hoping that once the Northern Powerhouse Rail* report is published there is some reference to reopening Leamside to free up capacity on the ECML which could/ should be used for more and better local/inter regional services.

The North-east is being held back, in growth terms, because of poor transport links. The area has fallen so far behind as far as rail links are concerned it will take more than one intervention to catch up, which is probably why it will never happen, and in 50 years time the North East will still be considered a lost cause.
* the mood music coming from NPR suggests, north of York is only going to included a few minor adjustments to the ECML to speed up the line to Newcastle, which doesn't help freeing up capacity for local/regional services.

Arriva Trains Northern/Northern Spirit used to run a once a day service from Middlesbrough to Hull/Scarborough (it was one or the other) via the Yarm line, so it did exist in some form in previous franchise history. But that was when Cross Country and Transpennine services were less frequent over ECML south of Northallerton.

 

[MoleStation]

I think what the OP is saying is that the Northern Rover tickets aren't much use in the North East.
A few years ago when I lived close to Durham I was planning a day out on the trains and stumbled on the Northern Day Rover ticket. After checking validity and timetables I discarded the idea as the Rover wasn't valid before 9.30am. The only Northern service through Durham (northbound, towards the biggest city in the North East) was at 8am or thereabouts, and that was it for the entire day! Ok, I could have bought a peak ticket to Newcastle as well, but it sours the claim that the Day Rover is great value for money for a day's worth of rail errr rovering.
For a local station not to have truly local trains throughout the day is bloody ridiculous.

 

[Ianno87]

I think what the OP is saying is that the Northern Rover tickets aren't much use in the North East.
A few years ago when I lived close to Durham I was planning a day out on the trains and stumbled on the Northern Day Rover ticket. After checking validity and timetables I discarded the idea as the Rover wasn't valid before 9.30am. The only Northern service through Durham (northbound, towards the biggest city in the North East) was at 8am or thereabouts, and that was it for the entire day! Ok, I could have bought a peak ticket to Newcastle as well, but it sours the claim that the Day Rover is great value for money for a day's worth of rail errr rovering.
For a local station not to have truly local trains throughout the day is bloody ridiculous.

I'd hardly call the service offering Durham gets as a whole "bloody ridiculous". Local trains add very little to what is already a decent service offering, constrained by the nature of the route Durham is on.

 

[MoleStation]

I'd hardly call the service offering Durham gets as a whole "bloody ridiculous". Local trains add very little to what is already a decent service offering, constrained by the nature of the route Durham is on.

It's not the service it's the ticket. Unless you are prepared to pay for an extra ticket on top of a Day Rover ticket there's not much point in the Day Rover ticket.
Integration is what is needed.

 

[The Lad]

The fares charged in the area for Northern travel limit the usefulness of the the offer, Shame as some of the local papers are daily so you can get plenty of vouchers.

 

[AndrewE]

Isn't this another of the problems that would be solved by just having one railway?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't this another of the problems that would be solved by just having one railway?

Is inability to use a Rover even a real problem? If they didn’t already exist would anyone think of introducing them?

 

[AndrewE]

Is inability to use a Rover even a real problem? If they didn’t already exist would anyone think of introducing them?

Well the fragmented passenger services are stopping people using a regional rover ticket (or badly curtailing their options.) BR had area and regional rovers, and I'm sure you wouldn't have been stopped from going in one direction just because there were only expresses on that line.

 

[30907]

Well the fragmented passenger services are stopping people using a regional rover ticket (or badly curtailing their options.) BR had area and regional rovers, and I'm sure you wouldn't have been stopped from going in one direction just because there were only expresses on that line.

There still are regional Rover and Ranger tickets available on all operators all year round but the OP is talking about the Northern-only promotion which is at a bargain price but comes with corresponding limitations.

 

[tbtc]

the OP is talking about the Northern-only promotion which is at a bargain price but comes with corresponding limitations

Agreed - it's a discounted ticket that offers less than a full regional "Rover" and costs less than a full regional "Rover" - it wouldn't exist under a "nationalised" railway, so seems a bit strange that it's being criticised like it is here.

As the line from Newcastle to York can have

• 2x LNER (possibly increasing to a third if the proposed Sunderland/Middlesbrough services are introduced)
• 3x TPE (two to Newcastle, one to Middlesbrough)
• 2x XC
• ?x Freight (there may only be a handful of freight services but that may still be sufficient to block out a clockface path for other TOCs, especially given the speed differential between freight and InterCity services)
• 0.5x GC (branching off for Teesside)

...so I don't know where the room is for a "regional" DMU service pathed at 75mph.

The current Northern service through Durham only really runs because the InterCity depots in Newcastle/ Leeds/ London etc mean there are gaps in the morning peak from Darlington/ Durham into Newcastle (since most units are leaving Heaton in the morning and it takes a while for the units from Neville Hill/ Bounds Green etc to be arriving into Tyneside).

Maybe there's an argument that in an ideal world, Northern would be using their DMUs to attend to demand from Hartlepool/ Sunderland into Newcastle in the rush hour, rather than diverting them via Darlington/ Durham to fill a gap that LNER/TPE/XC leave? Rather than complaining about Northern not serving Durham fully, we could say that Durham isn't Northern's problem to solve (and they could be 06:58/07:58/08:58 arrivals into Newcastle from Hartlepool/ Sunderland - i.e. proper Northern stations, instead of diverting them away from the coast because other TOCs aren't running sufficient services through Durham)?

Rather than worrying about running a Northern service down the ECML to York (to tick a box), maybe the question should be whether the "Heaton" bits of Northern could work as a stand alone franchise? Northern is already fairly messy, the NE bit is pretty independent (other than maintaining some Pacers for Sheffield - an arrangement that may change when the 142s leave), it might be a nice size for a regional stand-alone franchise (instead of being far down the list of the current franchise that prioritises Manchester and Leeds above everywhere else).

 

[Basher]

Thanks for the replys . As a side note, do you remember the teddy bear specials around 1985. What a bargain .

 

[AndrewE]

There still are regional Rover and Ranger tickets available on all operators all year round but the OP is talking about the Northern-only promotion which is at a bargain price but comes with corresponding limitations.

That wasn't obvious. Anyway it is still the consequence of a fragmented railway. If it wasn't useable on "one railway" it wouldn't have been offered: now you have lots of pretend private railways looking for keep-all-the-revenue wheezes and (for transparency/customer "choice") it's getting as bad as gas/electricity, mobile phone or broadband contracts!

 

[AndrewE]

Agreed - it's a discounted ticket that offers less than a full regional "Rover" and costs less than a full regional "Rover" - it wouldn't exist under a "nationalised" railway, so seems a bit strange that it's being criticised like it is here.

Rather than worrying about running a Northern service down the ECML to York (to tick a box), maybe the question should be whether the "Heaton" bits of Northern could work as a stand alone franchise? Northern is already fairly messy, the NE bit is pretty independent (other than maintaining some Pacers for Sheffield - an arrangement that may change when the 142s leave), it might be a nice size for a regional stand-alone franchise (instead of being far down the list of the current franchise that prioritises Manchester and Leeds above everywhere else).

I can think of a quicker, simpler, all-embracing solution...

 

[sprinterguy]

I can think of a quicker, simpler, all-embracing solution...

Based on the tone of your previous posts, are you genuinely insinuating that renationalisation of the UK rail network would be either quick or simple? It would take years and cost billions.

 

[AndrewE]

Based on the tone of your previous posts, are you genuinely insinuating that renationalisation of the UK rail network would be either quick or simple? It would take years and cost billions.

Both those are just your opinions and you are entitled to hold them. I disagree, and so do lots of other people.

 

[sprinterguy]

Agreed - it's a discounted ticket that offers less than a full regional "Rover" and costs less than a full regional "Rover" - it wouldn't exist under a "nationalised" railway, so seems a bit strange that it's being criticised like it is here.

Fully agreed: Northern are offering a cheap ticket that permits all day travel on any of their services after the morning peak that they have no requirement to sell, and yet somehow this is being seen as A Bad Thing? It beggars belief.

Maybe there's an argument that in an ideal world, Northern would be using their DMUs to attend to demand from Hartlepool/ Sunderland into Newcastle in the rush hour, rather than diverting them via Darlington/ Durham to fill a gap that LNER/TPE/XC leave? Rather than complaining about Northern not serving Durham fully, we could say that Durham isn't Northern's problem to solve (and they could be 06:58/07:58/08:58 arrivals into Newcastle from Hartlepool/ Sunderland - i.e. proper Northern stations, instead of diverting them away from the coast because other TOCs aren't running sufficient services through Durham)?

Hear hear. There's more capacity needed on existing services, rather than stretching the fleet even more thinly over a route that already has six 100mph+ services an hour between all the major centres of population!

Rather than worrying about running a Northern service down the ECML to York (to tick a box), maybe the question should be whether the "Heaton" bits of Northern could work as a stand alone franchise? Northern is already fairly messy, the NE bit is pretty independent (other than maintaining some Pacers for Sheffield - an arrangement that may change when the 142s leave), it might be a nice size for a regional stand-alone franchise (instead of being far down the list of the current franchise that prioritises Manchester and Leeds above everywhere else).

I would suggest that this would only work as a component of an expanded East Coast franchise, but then again it would be no smaller than the old Valley Lines franchise. The north east services are very much a self-supporting satellite to the Northern 'empire'.

 

[sprinterguy]

Both those are just your opinions and you are entitled to hold them. I disagree, and so do lots of other people.

They're fully entitled to disagree. They'd still be wrong, though.

 

[LLivery]

Whilst buying stock from owners would cost billions, which isn't really required, the rest doesn't have to be expensive. When franchise contracts end, nationalise. For others, if the government right now said: "Is your franchise giving you headaches? Are you struggling to make money? Is your reputation going down the drain? Give your franchise back with no strings attached!" I bet a considering the mess we're in, a few operators may seriously consider walking, even running away.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's not do the Nationalisation debate on this thread thank you. If people wish to they are welcome to start a new thread.

 

[adrock1976]

Would a Northern Regional between York and Newcastle work if it was something like this?

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stillington - Ferryhill - Leamside* - Washington* - Newcastle every 60 minutes

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stockton-on-Tees - Hartlepool every 60 minutes

Both would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between York and Eaglescliffe, and assuming the Carlisle/Newcastle - Middlesbrough limited stop runs via Stillington, this would also provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between Newcastle and Eaglescliffe via Stillington as well.

*Obviously, this would involve the reopening of the Leamside route.

 

[VT 390]

Would a Northern Regional between York and Newcastle work if it was something like this?

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stillington - Ferryhill - Leamside* - Washington* - Newcastle every 60 minutes

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stockton-on-Tees - Hartlepool every 60 minutes

Both would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between York and Eaglescliffe, and assuming the Carlisle/Newcastle - Middlesbrough limited stop runs via Stillington, this would also provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between Newcastle and Eaglescliffe via Stillington as well.

*Obviously, this would involve the reopening of the Leamside route.

Would there be capacity on the 2 track section north of York?
I like the idea though if the capacity could be found, though I am not sure that Yarm would need both services to stop as well at the TPE service and I would extend the York-Hartlepool service to Newcastle providing 2tph Hartlepool/Sunderland to Newcastle (combined with the Middlesborough service)

 

[tbtc]

Would a Northern Regional between York and Newcastle work if it was something like this?

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stillington - Ferryhill - Leamside* - Washington* - Newcastle every 60 minutes

York - Thirsk - Northallerton (low level) - Yarm - Eaglescliffe - Stockton-on-Tees - Hartlepool every 60 minutes

Both would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between York and Eaglescliffe, and assuming the Carlisle/Newcastle - Middlesbrough limited stop runs via Stillington, this would also provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between Newcastle and Eaglescliffe via Stillington as well.

*Obviously, this would involve the reopening of the Leamside route.

If you're going to the expense of re-opening the Leamside route (which I'm not against) then that opens a whole other can of worms (e.g. would the Leamside route be to take sluggish freight off the busy route through Durham or to provide a High(er) Speed route for Scottish services wanting to avoid the slow bends at Durham.. rather than building it to justify introducing additional services to tidy up a gap in the map for one particular franchise.

Fully agreed: Northern are offering a cheap ticket that permits all day travel on any of their services after the morning peak that they have no requirement to sell, and yet somehow this is being seen as A Bad Thing? It beggars belief.

Hear hear. There's more capacity needed on existing services, rather than stretching the fleet even more thinly over a route that already has six 100mph+ services an hour between all the major centres of population!

I would suggest that this would only work as a component of an expanded East Coast franchise, but then again it would be no smaller than the old Valley Lines franchise. The north east services are very much a self-supporting satellite to the Northern 'empire'.

I like the idea of putting the NE services in with LNER (maybe there's an argument that the EMT services in Lincolnshire ought to be part of LNER too?). I personally think that having local and regional/ longer distance services within the same franchise is A Good Thing (e.g. better integration) but I guess that's a whole other argument - people seem to like going full circle - they complain about splitting off the uneconomical "Provincial" routes like Northern but then complain about lack of competition when franchises are merged.

The main thing relevant to this thread is that Northern have done a good thing by offering a discounted ticket that will attract some competition to people willing to put up with secondary routes/ secondary levels of service - there's no real need for Northern to run a service from York to Darlington (other than a certain type of enthusiast who want things to look neat and tidy)

 

[AndrewE]

The main thing relevant to this thread is that Northern have done a good thing by offering a discounted ticket that will attract some competition to people willing to put up with secondary routes/ secondary levels of service - there's no real need for Northern to run a service from York to Darlington (other than [for] a certain type of enthusiast who want things to look neat and tidy)

...apart from allowing their customers in York who want to explore the region North of them to use said ticket, of course!