Running dual voltage 319s as AC only

[PhilipW]

Assuming that the GWR and Lancashire electrifications go ahead, the plan is to refurbish the 319s shortly to made redundant on Thameslink and use them on the newly electrified routes as AC units only.

My question is "What is likely to happen, or even what is sensible to happen, to the DC equipment on board ?"

-- Will it be removed making the units truly AC only ?
-- Will it be renovated thus keeping the units dual voltage ?
-- Will it just be left in and allowed to rust away ?

I am not an electrical egineer and am not looking for a too detailed technical answer. I do realise that most of the equipment applies both to AC/DC running so the number of pure DC components may be small.

 

[royaloak]

Probably the latter! as was done on the 350/1s on delivery to the midland region were the shoe beams were left on and only the actual shoe gear was removed.

 

[Oswyntail]

Any possibility for usage at any points on the Merseyrail network? Through routes beyond the third-rail limit?

 

[O L Leigh]

It's really just the shoegear and associated wiring, as I understand it.

I imagine that the shoes would be removed to avoid them striking high shoulders, being torn off and damaging some other part of the train.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

Any possibility for usage at any points on the Merseyrail network? Through routes beyond the third-rail limit?

The only possibility from that would be Crewe-Liverpool Central-Southport, switching from AC to DC at Hunts Cross, which I think would require an infrastructure change at Hunts Cross to enable. Also the local stations on the Crewe-Liverpool line are London Midland stations not Northern.

 

[jopsuk]

How much of the third rail/DC kit do the 365s have left on them?

 

[scrapy]

The only possibility from that would be Crewe-Liverpool Central-Southport, switching from AC to DC at Hunts Cross, which I think would require an infrastructure change at Hunts Cross to enable. Also the local stations on the Crewe-Liverpool line are London Midland stations not Northern.

This would need 2 reversals one at South Parkway then one at Hunts Cross, and a complete infrastructure change at Allerton junction with crossovers and 3rd rail put in and signalling changed, not to metion creating a bottleneck and pathing problems whilst blocking the fast lines for a period whilst the turnaround and voltage swap is done, there is no AC at Hunts Cross so any voltage swap would need to be at LPY. So I think it's a none starter.

There could be a place for dual voltage if the Manchester - Liverpool via Warrington Central is electrified as Merseyrail services could be extended to Warrington, serving local stations. Northern could then run a regular electrified Lime St to South Parkway service using the slow lines (crossover between South Parkway and West Allerton would be needed) and run local Manchester Oxford Rd - Warrington Central services which could result in frequency increases for stations currently only served 2 hourly.

 

[fgwrich]

As for the shoe gear on these, id reckon it would depend on what happens to the Readhill / Guilford to Reading line, becasue if this becomes electric all the way through, then it would be easier to keep the shoe gear and electrify the missing sections with 750 V DC...

Afterall, the goverment is now all in on electrification and in filling of electrified and non electrified areas...

And the Shoe gear beam shouldnt be too much of a problem on the GWML, afterall, most of it was built to broad gauge, and 2 ex Lorol / Sliverlink 508/3s were diverted up through oxford to bescot a few weeks ago...ironicly to return to eastleigh only a few weeks later mind you:roll:

 

[will1337]

I thought that the 319s were likely to go north with electrification around Liverpool, Manchester and Preston? Would there potentially be a cascade to FGW also? If Redhill/Guildford to Reading were electrified with the 3rd rail wouldn't it be far more logical to have SWT running the service as their geographical area between Reading and Dorking is the majority of the route? Also I believe that 450s need little work doing be converted to both OHLE and 3rd rail operations.

 

[Failed Unit]

I thought that the 319s were likely to go north with electrification around Liverpool, Manchester and Preston? Would there potentially be a cascade to FGW also? If Redhill/Guildford to Reading were electrified with the 3rd rail wouldn't it be far more logical to have SWT running the service as their geographical area between Reading and Dorking is the majority of the route? Also I believe that 450s need little work doing be converted to both OHLE and 3rd rail operations.

Some will but there are a lot of 319's more than I think would ever be needed in the North West. Some are definately planned to go onto FGW, I am sure it has been documented somewhere as well.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that the 319s were likely to go north with electrification around Liverpool, Manchester and Preston? Would there potentially be a cascade to FGW also? If Redhill/Guildford to Reading were electrified with the 3rd rail wouldn't it be far more logical to have SWT running the service as their geographical area between Reading and Dorking is the majority of the route? Also I believe that 450s need little work doing be converted to both OHLE and 3rd rail operations.

The DfT stated Thameslink units are being replaced by brand new ones and the old 4 car electric ones i.e. 319s would have the interiors striped, replaced and air conditioning fitted and go on Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows services, as well as electric commuter trains on the Great Western line post electrification.

Manchester-Scotland would be re-routed via Wigan and go to new or cascaded electric Desiros, depending on what London Midland get in the future.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston and Preston-Blackpool North has only just been mentioned as the next lines to be electrified. There's been no mention of what type of rolling stock would be used after electification.

 

[O L Leigh]

And the Shoe gear beam shouldnt be too much of a problem on the GWML, afterall, most of it was built to broad gauge, and 2 ex Lorol / Sliverlink 508/3s were diverted up through oxford to bescot a few weeks ago...ironicly to return to eastleigh only a few weeks later mind you:roll:

While the beams would be high enough not to be in danger of fouling, the shoes themselves are not necessarily so.

The PWay on the former Southern Region are more careful about the height of the shoulders because they know about the risks these pose to trains, though that is not to say that shoes are not lost on a fairly regular basis. However, PWay elsewhere on the network don't have to worry about this so much and therefore don't always make sure that the shoulders are not overheight.

Are we sure that these Cl508's hadn't had their shoes removed prior to making this trip...?

How much of the third rail/DC kit do the 365s have left on them?

Shoes and shoebeams have been removed. I would anticipate that the wiring remains though.

O L Leigh

 

[will1337]

The DfT stated Thameslink units are being replaced by brand new ones and the old 4 car electric ones i.e. 319s would have the interiors striped, replaced and air conditioning fitted and go on Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows services, as well as electric commuter trains on the Great Western line post electrification.

Manchester-Scotland would be re-routed via Wigan and go to new or cascaded electric Desiros, depending on what London Midland get in the future.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston and Preston-Blackpool North has only just been mentioned as the next lines to be electrified. There's been no mention of what type of rolling stock would be used after electification.

I know of the Thameslink plans but understand that this is speculation. The final requirements in terms of numbers of units on the GWML and Liverpool to Manchester would not be known until later. I hope that a more suitable long distance train will be used than the 350s, preferably tilting and longer so as to improve Manchester to Scotland journey times. If more were built for the Birmingham to Scotland route then Voyagers could be cascaded.

 

[royaloak]

Are we sure that these Cl508's hadn't had their shoes removed prior to making this trip...?O L Leigh

maybe the shoes were strapped up!

 

[Old Timer]

The normal conditions of passage for trains equipped with third rail gear over non DC lines, is that the shoegear must be removed.

As OL Leigh has pointed out there is the risk of ballast and rails falling within the shoegear area on non DC lines.

DC lines have a different structure gauge at rail level.

 

[90019]

then it would be easier to keep the shoe gear and electrify the missing sections with 750 V DC...

IIRC, unless there's already 3rd rail there that they can extend it from, they can't do that.

 

[adc82140]

There's 750V DC between Reading and Wokingham, then Ash-Guildford, and finally Reigate-Redhill. Wouldn't take a huge amount of filling in.

I've often wondered about the Reading-Basingstoke line- OHLE as an extension of any GWML electrification, or DC as an extension of the southern region?

 

[Old Timer]

DC is a very expensive and inefficient means of operation compared to AC. It is also much more expensive to install, and makes the track more costly to maintain as well as being inherently dangerous.

 

[Mike Redding]

Quite a good point actually, I don't think there were any plans to electrify that line though, only the one to Newbury. I wonder if it would make a difference if SWT were going to run services to Reading from Basingtoke (or Winchester/Southampton etc) alongside or instead of FGW?

 

[royaloak]

DC is a very expensive and inefficient means of operation compared to AC. It is also much more expensive to install, and makes the track more costly to maintain as well as being inherently dangerous.

Better than that overhead stuff which falls down at anything above a slight breeze, and jumps across if you get too close to it where as you need to touch 3rd rail, haven't we been here before

 

[Old Timer]

Better than that overhead stuff which falls down at anything above a slight breeze, and jumps across if you get too close to it where as you need to touch 3rd rail, haven't we been here before

Indeed we have old chap !

You know DC makes me feel all nervous !

 

[royaloak]

Ay I know, but its all I have worked around so am happy enough, but that overhead stuff fizzing away to itself ready to leap at you, no thanks

 

[Old Timer]

Ay I know, but its all I have worked around so am happy enough, but that overhead stuff fizzing away to itself ready to leap at you, no thanks

I will never understand you Southern men !

I went up to Stratford FLT some years back with a liner from Southampton FLT. Decent bunch of Southern men.....they usually are.

However as we slid over the WCML at Willesden comment turned to how dangerous the OHL was, with these Souithern lads VERY nervous indeed about it and saying how dangerous it is !

As I pointed out then :

(a) Its 15 feet up in the air, so its well out of the way ;

(b) It is quite happy if you don't mess with it, a bit like leaving a snake alone

(c) It will only go for you if you bugger around with it ;

Whereas

(a) DC is at ground level ;

(b) You can step of the train straight onto it :

(c) You can fall over by it ;

(d) It will get you when there is any ground water about ;

(e) Its very dangerous for shunters ;

(f) Its dangerous when you need to examine or go under a train ;

(g) You get arc eye from it ;

(h) If you come into contact with it, there is no guarantee that the breakers will come out and then you die by slowly cooking from the inside out.


It amazes me just how much you Southern guys are nervous/worried about the OHL when its perfectly safe compared to what you wander around every day !

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail were, some time ago, talking about extending certain sections of line with DC kit that another area could supply spare. So that would obviously make smaller in-fills cheaper than buying brand new kit in.

Still, I hope the line to the docks is given the OHL treatment, as that would enable Merseyrail to run services into Lime Street/Onto the city line from Bootle via Anfield with dual voltage trains.

 

[royaloak]

(h) If you come into contact with it, there is no guarantee that the breakers will come out and then you die by slowly cooking from the inside out!

Thats true, the human body has just enough resistance.
Heard of one do that (Surbiton I think?) steam coming out of his ears, best thing HE SURVIVED with no lasting effects, although that is probably a sign of the level he was at to start with

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm passed PTS competent for both OLE and CRE on the basis that I sign a very small section of the North London Line around Stratford (specifically the couple of hundred yards between Channelsea and Lea Junctions).

Prior to the opening of the new LOROL platforms this had a very short stretch of CRE going around the junction and into Stratford Low Level, and all of it had "kick board" protection. However, it still gave me the screaming heebie-jeebies when I had to walk around there on my own to learn the road. In fact, I took the (very) long way around so that I could cross at a CRE gap rather than having to risk stepping over it.

Horrible stuff, CRE. Fancy leaving your traction supply lying around on the floor like that. The OLE can fizz and crackle all it likes because I know that it's not going to come and get me.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyrail were, some time ago, talking about extending certain sections of line with DC kit that another area could supply spare. So that would obviously make smaller in-fills cheaper than buying brand new kit in.

The lines I've heard about extending the 3rd rail on are Bidston-Wrexham and Ormskirk-Preston with Ormskirk-Preston being deemed non-economically viable by Network Rail.

Still, I hope the line to the docks is given the OHL treatment, as that would enable Merseyrail to run services into Lime Street/Onto the city line from Bootle via Anfield with dual voltage trains.

Isn't this going to be for freight only unless Liverpool FC want to pay to fund passenger trains to go to Stanley Park when they eventually move?

 

[First class]

Kirkby-Wigan however, was examined for 3rd rail extension to the Merseyrail network, and I believe had a good cost:benefit ratio.

 

[Skie]

Isn't this going to be for freight only unless Liverpool FC want to pay to fund passenger trains to go to Stanley Park when they eventually move?

As part of the agreement, if Liverpool FC want to add additional seats (the stadium will be built with extra capacity over the originally agreed amount) then they need to provide funding for a station on that line so that it dosent cause major traffic/pedestrian problems with the increased numbers.