Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[samuelmorris]

I looked into a hybrid car a few years and asked the main dealer:

Me: 'How long do the batteries last?
Dealer: 'How much mileage do you do etc. etc.?'
Me: 'blah blah.'
Dealer: '7 years.'
Me: 'How much are a set of new batteries?'
Dealer: 'I'll have to ask our maintenance dept.'

He daren't tell me over the phone. Thousands I expect. Who'd buy a second hand hybrid car with that hanging over you?

You'll find that they typically last longer than that in practice, and furthermore a much weaker battery pack is of relatively minimal effect on a hybrid vehicle. Your fuel economy will decrease a little but not excessively so. Battery degradation is only really an issue for full EVs and even then it's less of a crisis than it initially appears, though still of great concern for the second hand EV market.

 

[DelW]

Being even more pedantic we're not supposed to capitalise names of units such as newtons. When capitalised it refers to the person the unit was named after.

Continuing pedantically, it should however be capitalised when abbreviated, so e.g. kilonewtons are kN, not kn. They're also more practical units for most engineering than the newton, which, as my long-ago engineering tutor taught us, is a unit of force roughly equal to the weight of the apple that allegedly fell on Isaac's head.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Continuing pedantically, it should however be capitalised when abbreviated, so e.g. kilonewtons are kN, not kn. They're also more practical units for most engineering than the newton, which, as my long-ago engineering tutor taught us, is a unit of force roughly equal to the weight of the apple that allegedly fell on Isaac's head.

And then you've got the bizarreness that the "large" units are typically capitalised and the "small" ones not - so mN is millinewtons, whereas MN is meganewtons - but by contrast kilonewtons isn't KN as would be logical but kN.

 

[mallard]

the newton, which, as my long-ago engineering tutor taught us, is a unit of force roughly equal to the weight of the apple that allegedly fell on Isaac's head

That's probably about right, but by coincidence. A newton is the force of a 1kg object moving at 1m/s (an apple has less mass, but would be falling faster). Accelerating said 1kg to 1m/s consumes 1 joule of energy and doing so in 1 second requires 1 watt of power. SI units aren't arbitrary...

Of course, engineers like to use de-normalised derived units like "kilogram-force", which is just the force in newtons multiplied by ~9.81 (standard acceleration due to gravity).

 

[jopsuk]

Erm, so, what's the state of play with the trains?

 

[reddragon]

The current list price for a battery pack fitted to a Nissan Leaf is less than the replacement cost of a new diesel engine! That is supply & fit.

The reality is Petrol engines last 100k miles & cost £3.5k to rebuild, and diesels last 150k miles and cost around £5k to rebuild on a normal car. Of course by then, a new gearbox is required too, with clutch, dual mass flywheel etc. Long before those mileages, the engines have lost a lot of power & efficiency which is why railway engines are overhauled so often! I know that partial top / bottom end rebuilds are much cheaper, but that only provides a short life extension.

EV batteries are lasting 400k miles with only 10-20% losses, and you only need to replace cells to the whole pack if there is a problem. Keeping the charge in the 20-80% range extends the battery life a lot. No power or performance is lost in that time.

Hybrids have tiny battery packs the go from full to empty at great frequencies and being that an old plug in Prius could only do <10 miles on battery anyway, that is no loss.

With hybrid buses, the tech ages quickly so the secondary markets have little interest in spending money on a bus on a school contract or low return bus route. A bus is probably only second to a Uber Prius for heavy battery abuse cycle wise

 

[edwin_m]

I am on my phones and it did it automatically.

It's a common mistake - even the display on our microwave says "Watt".

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The current list price for a battery pack fitted to a Nissan Leaf is less than the replacement cost of a new diesel engine! That is supply & fit.

The reality is Petrol engines last 100k miles & cost £3.5k to rebuild, and diesels last 150k miles and cost around £5k to rebuild on a normal car. Of course by then, a new gearbox is required too, with clutch, dual mass flywheel etc. Long before those mileages, the engines have lost a lot of power & efficiency which is why railway engines are overhauled so often! I know that partial top / bottom end rebuilds are much cheaper, but that only provides a short life extension.

EV batteries are lasting 400k miles with only 10-20% losses, and you only need to replace cells to the whole pack if there is a problem. Keeping the charge in the 20-80% range extends the battery life a lot. No power or performance is lost in that time.

Hybrids have tiny battery packs the go from full to empty at great frequencies and being that an old plug in Prius could only do <10 miles on battery anyway, that is no loss.

With hybrid buses, the tech ages quickly so the secondary markets have little interest in spending money on a bus on a school contract or low return bus route. A bus is probably only second to a Uber Prius for heavy battery abuse cycle wise

Don't know what cars you are driving if your engine lasts only 100k miles before rebuild.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The current list price for a battery pack fitted to a Nissan Leaf is less than the replacement cost of a new diesel engine! That is supply & fit.

The reality is Petrol engines last 100k miles & cost £3.5k to rebuild, and diesels last 150k miles and cost around £5k to rebuild on a normal car. Of course by then, a new gearbox is required too, with clutch, dual mass flywheel etc. Long before those mileages, the engines have lost a lot of power & efficiency which is why railway engines are overhauled so often! I know that partial top / bottom end rebuilds are much cheaper, but that only provides a short life extension.

EV batteries are lasting 400k miles with only 10-20% losses, and you only need to replace cells to the whole pack if there is a problem. Keeping the charge in the 20-80% range extends the battery life a lot. No power or performance is lost in that time.

Hybrids have tiny battery packs the go from full to empty at great frequencies and being that an old plug in Prius could only do <10 miles on battery anyway, that is no loss.

With hybrid buses, the tech ages quickly so the secondary markets have little interest in spending money on a bus on a school contract or low return bus route. A bus is probably only second to a Uber Prius for heavy battery abuse cycle wise

Wrong - the reality is an engine should normally last longer than that. My 24 year old Vauxhall Carlton has done 132k miles. I would expect the head gasket to fail on this particular type of engine which last time I checked was about £150 parts and labour. However I have just replaced the ** BATTERY ** which cost about £50 - and that is for a small (by comparison to a Hybrid) 12V battery. The battery was beginning to fall off a cliff in terms of power and with winter approaching I could see starting was going to be a problem. Even if your argument was entirely correct the problem is that Hybrid cars also has an internal combustion engine aiui.

I have seen too many problems with batteries in all sorts of devices so I won't be taking that risk until I am thoroughly proved wrong/out-of-date. I know legislation is pushing us all into that corner but I will hold off for as long as I possibly can. I remember when the government were encouraging us to buy cars with a diesel engine. Over the years I had a few friends telling me to switch to diesel and they have now all switched to petrol.

My 24 year old car has a 24 year old carbon footprint. Make things last and use public transport where practical.

 

[big all]

the thing about traction batteries is they will tend to be several banks in series and parallel so a complete failure is unlikly with say a bank with a failure being perhaps 1/6th or 1/4th off the total power

 

[Nick Ashwell]

However I have just replaced the ** BATTERY ** which cost about £50 - and that is for a small (by comparison to a Hybrid) 12V battery.

They're two very different types of battery, whilst the EV type battery will be more expensive it's also completely different and not comparable

 

[Charlie Smythe]

They're two very different types of battery, whilst the EV type battery will be more expensive it's also completely different and not comparable

Batteries are expensive, doesn't matter the brand, type or intended use. My power tool batteries for work are 150 pounds. They are flex volt and are 3Ah at 54v OR 9Ah at 18v. The voltage depends on which tool it is fixed to and it detect it automatically. Either way they are only 0.162Kwh and are very expensive, massive and heavy.

Interestingly a Class 230 would need 2617 of these. That would be a lot of wiring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't know what cars you are driving if your engine lasts only 100k miles before rebuild.

It used to be the case that cars would last 100,000 miles, though it wouldn't necessarily be the engine that'd give up, more the body would have rusted to bits by then. But modern cars are much better, and 200,000 or more is entirely possible.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Batteries are expensive, doesn't matter the brand, type or intended use. My power tool batteries for work are 150 pounds. They are flex volt and are 3Ah at 54v OR 9Ah at 18v. The voltage depends on which tool it is fixed to and it detect it automatically. Either way they are only 0.162Kwh and are very expensive, massive and heavy.

Interestingly a Class 230 would need 2617 of these. That would be a lot of wiring.

Surprised you don't have diesel power tools.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

That's probably about right, but by coincidence. A newton is the force of a 1kg object moving at 1m/s (an apple has less mass, but would be falling faster). Accelerating said 1kg to 1m/s consumes 1 joule of energy and doing so in 1 second requires 1 watt of power. SI units aren't arbitrary...

Of course, engineers like to use de-normalised derived units like "kilogram-force", which is just the force in newtons multiplied by ~9.81 (standard acceleration due to gravity).

To continue the the pedantry
[pedant]

The second sentence should say 1 newton is the force that would accelerate 1 kg mass at 1 m/s^2.

Looks to me like your third sentence is not right either. Starting from rest and applying a constant force, a mass will reach a velocity of V=at = F/m*t. With 1kg, 1 N and 1s you'll reach 1 m/s. The distance travelled is S=0.5 a t^2 which is 0.5 m. There are now two ways to find the energy transferred by the force acting on the mass. First, integrated the force over the distance and here that reduces to E= F*S = 0.5 J. Second is to look at the kinetic energy acquired by the mass which is E = 0.5 m V^2 = 0.5 J. They match, which is reassuring.

Power delivered by the force is P= F*v which is increasing with time. {In railway terms, the tractive effort (drawbar force) is constant but maintaining that requires increasing power as the speed increases}.

[/pendant]

Sorry to be that person, but being careful with relationships, units and dimensions matters. Now hoping I haven't slipped up somewhere.

 

[Roose]

Erm, so, what's the state of play with the trains?

I've been wondering that, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been wondering that, too.

Me too. I'm really looking forward to a ride, given that they will first run on a line very local to me.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Surprised you don't have diesel power tools.

Actually, technically we sort of do. Our wired tools use a lovely JCB diesel generator.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

It used to be the case that cars would last 100,000 miles, though it wouldn't necessarily be the engine that'd give up, more the body would have rusted to bits by then. But modern cars are much better, and 200,000 or more is entirely possible.

It's more than possible. I would be very angry if a well looked after car didn't last 200k without any major faults.

 

[gazthomas]

Erm, so, what's the state of play with the trains?

Well done for pointing this out!

 

[gazthomas]

It's more than possible. I would be very angry if a well looked after car didn't last 200k without any major faults.

Dear mods, can we split to have a "battery issues and range" thread?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Dear mods, can we split to have a "battery issues and range" thread?

I didn't start the car thing so I am not sure why you picked out my last comment.

 

[gazthomas]

I didn't start the car thing so I am not sure why you picked out my last comment.

Fair point Charlie, not singling you out, but think we need to get this thread back on track

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to stay on topic please

If you see someone has gone off topic, and you wish to reply, please do not continue off-topic discussion in the wrong thread. Instead, use an existing thread (if there is one) or create a new thread, with suitably descriptive title, in the correct part of the forum.

If anyone has any concerns regarding any post please use the report button to contact us. Thanks.

 

[Neen Sollars]

Recent filming of driver training 7/1/2019

Thanks to SNCF87 Rail Videos

 

[big all]

thanks for sharing
they seem quite nippy wonder how they perform on one engine ??

 

[samuelmorris]

thanks for sharing
they seem quite nippy wonder how they perform on one engine ??

Do you mean one pair? There are two engines per vehicle I believe.

 

[class387]

Recent filming of driver training 7/1/2019

Thanks to SNCF87 Rail Videos

To me they sound as if they have retained the original DC motors (rather than having AC motors put in), but with new IGBT inverters rather than camshaft control. Can anyone confirm if that is the case?

 

[samuelmorris]

It's a little hard to tell - it could simply be that the same gearing is used - retractioned 321s and 455s share a lot of the sound of their original DC motored iterations, but with some subtle differences in noise produced by the motors themselves. Over the engine noise and fairly noisy traction inverters I'm not sure you'd notice such differences with the 230s. Audio from the inside might make that easier.

 

[big all]

Do you mean one pair? There are two engines per vehicle I believe.

yes meant 50% power