Northern owner Deutsche Bahn wants compensation from Network Rail

[superkev]

May be of interest. About time someone held Network rail and its gravy train to account.
From Rail technology magazine

"Deutsche Bahn has demanded Network Rail pay compensation for the extensive delays in electrifying its under fire Northern rail franchise.
First reported in the Telegraph, the parent company of Arriva Rail North, who run the struggling operator, blames Network Rail for plunging profits reported in accounts filed last week, and is now seeking reimbursement.
Arriva Rail North’s accounts for the year up to March 2018 revealed that, whilst revenue had mostly stayed the same as last year at £629m, pre-tax profits have fallen 40pc to £12.7m and dividends to Deutsche Bahn were cancelled for a second year in a row.
The German company’s financial statement read: “The ongoing late delivery of new infrastructure has consequently prevented the company from introducing the increased capacity and frequency required to deliver the planned growth in customer journeys and revenue.
“Compensation for this is being sought and potentially there are a wide range of outcomes as a result.”
It is claimed that the electrification has been delayed by over a year, with the work originally due to be completed by December 2017"
link follows.

 

[DarloRich]

May be of interest. About time someone held Network rail and its gravy train to account.
See
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ork-rail-over-extensive-delays-and-disruption
K

An interesting article but a very poor statement from the OP. I wonder which contractual mechanism DB wish to rely on to seek compensation and how they apportion the impact.

 

[gordonthemoron]

perhaps DB should sue the government for insisting on DOO?

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm not surprised.

perhaps DB should sue the government for insisting on DOO?

nice one!

 

[Mogster]

Northern get all the flak, some of which they deserve.

However they didn’t build the Ordsall Chord and Trafford freight terminal without any additional central Manchester rail infrastructure. The Castlefield daily peak time havoc isn’t their fault but they do get blamed for it.

 

[quantinghome]

Northern get all the flak, some of which they deserve.

However they didn’t build the Ordsall Chord and Trafford freight terminal without any additional central Manchester rail infrastructure. The Castlefield daily peak time havoc isn’t their fault but they do get blamed for it.

In all honesty I think this is a red herring. They committed to running a timetable based on the infrastructure available. A competent operator should have known the timetable wasn't going to work and should have informed DfT and Rail North of the fact in good time. If the timetable was conditional on certain infrastructure improvements being ready then Northern should have ensured that their franchise agreement made these a condition of the new timetable being introduced.

 

[Carlisle]

Usu

In all honesty I think this is a red herring. They committed to running a timetable based on the infrastructure available. A competent operator should have known the timetable wasn't going to work and should have informed DfT and Rail North of the fact in good time. If the timetable was conditional on certain infrastructure improvements being ready then Northern should have ensured that their franchise agreement made these a condition of the new timetable being introduced.

if all rail franchises and contracts were as simple to get right first time as you imply, we wouldn’t have seen failures of Connex South Eastern, GNER, NXEC, VTEC, open access operatior WSMR, also remembering NWT & northern spirit nearly went down the pan too

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I imagine the claim will be for things like the extra training Northern had to do because the Blackpool blockade overran and caused train crew competence to expire.
The direct project overrun costs in terms of extra bustitution will already have been funded by NR as part of the disruption payments regime.
I've no idea how you would apportion the extra cost of the May timetable meltdown, which may have forced performance penalties on TOCs under their franchise agreements and passenger compensation offers.
I'd also expect some of this to come from DfT (ie adjusted franchise subsidy payments) as well as from NR as a supplier.

 

[WatcherZero]

The franchise contracts do set out the infrastructure the government pledges to have available to the operator at various key dates and take them into account. Its how for example Northern are getting about £30m more subsidy than their subsidy profile as infrastructure that would have generated extra revenue hasnt been delivered.

The infrastructure and delays with years of extra unscheduled engineering possessions are now so prevalent however Northern has a case that this goes beyond missed contractual deadlines and into outright financial damage.

 

[js1000]

Both Network Rail and Northern are to blame.

Network Rail for failing to deliver infrastructure improvements on time.

Northern for failing to identify the proposed timetable was fundamentally but still blindly persisted and failed to change or notify passengers about the impending S-show that was about to unfold.

Each to their own.

Personally, if the government are going to have to pay Deutsche Bahn £31 million for unimplemented services and lost revenue, millions in compensation for conductor strikes and delay repay and additional payments through Network Rail for delayed infrastructure improvements then they may as well take the entire franchise in house and pay Deutsche Bahn off as all of the above is clearly not in the taxpayers' interests. The franchise is still a basket case that is funded a great deal by the taxpayer (35p in the £ for every mile isn't it?) and DB aren't doing very much to change that other than looking to pillage the franchise through penalty payments. It's not right from the taxpayers' perspective

 

[yorksrob]

When do I get my compensation for not having a train service every Saturday for the last few months ?

 

[Llama]

A big part of Northern's delays is taxis for ferrying drivers about, particularly around Manchester. These taxis are consistently late / fail to turn up.
Diagrammed timing allowances for taxis are also often inadequate.

 

[Elecman]

A big part of Northern's delays is taxis for ferrying drivers about, particularly around Manchester. These taxis are consistently late / fail to turn up.
Diagrammed timing allowances for taxis are also often inadequate.

If that’s true then that’s an own goal by Arriva then for poor traincrew diagramming

 

[68000]

There are contractual mechanisms already in place already to claim compensation from Network Rail under the Network Code and has been used thousands of times. Sounds like what Northern want may not be allowable under the Network Code if it is making it to the media

 

[Bletchleyite]

perhaps DB should sue the government for insisting on DOO?

They didn't have to bid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A big part of Northern's delays is taxis for ferrying drivers about, particularly around Manchester. These taxis are consistently late / fail to turn up.
Diagrammed timing allowances for taxis are also often inadequate.

Perhaps they might consider diagramming their services such that it is not necessary to use road transport to move crews around other than between home and depot or at the start/end of the day, then? They've got these things called trains that come in handy for, you know, moving people around.

The present situation really does seem grossly incompetent.

 

[Mag_seven]

FAO Deutsche Bahn - Germany is that way. →

 

[CHAPS2034]

Perhaps they might consider diagramming their services such that it is not necessary to use road transport to move crews around other than between home and depot or at the start/end of the day, then? They've got these things called trains that come in handy for, you know, moving people around.
The present situation really does seem grossly incompetent.

They do use trains too of course which, when running late, cause problems. There was a lot of hanging about for crew going on again at Oxford Rd over Christmas - I was there and at one stage there were 3 Northern trains in the 4 through platforms awaiting crews. I was there for 15 minutes on an Alderley - Wigan service awaiting a guard who was on a late running Wigan - Alderley. My friend and his wife waited a similar period the hour before as the guard was coming by taxi from Rochdale.

Luckily the situation didn't get too bad as there was no through running via the Ordsall Chord as Victoria was closed. And of course with the closure, I guess all the diagrams were screwed up anyway.

However I'm sure someone mentioned on here that the diagramming of crews is done now by a new(ish) system and is no doubt programmed to minimise costs without injecting a modicum of practicality and reality into the situation. Like a lot of industries nowadays, I expect all that type of expertise is long gone as it costs and the bean-counters who get rid of it will often be gone before the full ramifications become obvious.

Now how's abut the passengers getting some decent compensation for the incompetence of the Company in running a 7 day service - in the Manchester area some routes only have a 5 day service nowadays

Gosh I feel better for that.

 

[Starmill]

When do I get my compensation for not having a train service every Saturday for the last few months ?

Have you not been submitting a claim every day you've been unable to travel with your season? Even if Northern reject each and every one of them I would still have been submitting them every single time.

If they've refused to pay, this then gives you the option to group your 43 claims for a day's travel which you paid for but wasn't provided together, which you can then try to recover through the courts. I would imagine you would have a viable legal argument to claim that compensation on a West Yorkshire Mcard Season, and a respectable sum will have built up after 43 days worth of travel. If you didn't submit the claims individually for every day you couldn't travel because of the industrial action, but this was because you were told you weren't entitled, this might not prevent you from taking legal action to recover your money. Fundamentally you paid for a service which wasn't delivered, which is at least viable as a legal argument.

What is more, the Department for Transport agrees with me that all ticket types qualify for compensation.

 

[Llama]

The system that churns out crew diagrams are has been used since Dec 2008 so there should be enough experience with it. And one of other main reasons (beside taxis) why "a member of traincrew is unavailable" is because the train they were booked 'passenger' on is late or hasn't run. We had some jobs recently going pass from A-B with two changes involved. When a Northern driver is relying on a TPE to turn up/run to time you know it's going to fall apart.

The diagramming dept meanwhile does a good impression of an ostrich claiming that "it works on paper"...

 

[talltim]

FAO Deutsche Bahn - Germany is that way. →

No, it’s that way ↓

 

[plcd1]

They didn't have to bid.

Indeed - nor did they have to sign the franchise contract either. When you sign you are deemed to understand what you've signed up to including all the staffing / infrastructure / etc issues. Obviously some things have gone wrong that were not expected but a whole load hasn't and was for Arriva and others to manage in accordance with their obligations.

I know that never removes the ability for aggrieved contractors to submit claims (their lawyers will have prepared a huge list of weaknesses in the franchise contract) but it should certainly limit their ability to send in a shopping list of contractual breaches by others. The point made by others about many issues being covered by established processes / Network Code is also well made.

 

[yorksrob]

Have you not been submitting a claim every day you've been unable to travel with your season? Even if Northern reject each and every one of them I would still have been submitting them every single time.

If they've refused to pay, this then gives you the option to group your 43 claims for a day's travel which you paid for but wasn't provided together, which you can then try to recover through the courts. I would imagine you would have a viable legal argument to claim that compensation on a West Yorkshire Mcard Season, and a respectable sum will have built up after 43 days worth of travel. If you didn't submit the claims individually for every day you couldn't travel because of the industrial action, but this was because you were told you weren't entitled, this might not prevent you from taking legal action to recover your money. Fundamentally you paid for a service which wasn't delivered, which is at least viable as a legal argument.

What is more, the Department for Transport agrees with me that all ticket types qualify for compensation.

I'm afraid it's not my West Yorkshire travel that's suffered. My journeys to the Dales and Lancashire have been kyboshed and I don't have a season ticket for those.

 

[Starmill]

I'm afraid it's not my West Yorkshire travel that's suffered. My journeys to the Dales and Lancashire have been kyboshed and I don't have a season ticket for those.

You would still be travelling from Normanton on the ticket you already hold, and still entitled to claim if you couldn't travel because of the strikes, even if you would have been going to the Dales or anywhere else outside West Yorkshire if the normal service were running.

Obviously, there's no compensation for a journey you never paid for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do use trains too of course which, when running late, cause problems. There was a lot of hanging about for crew going on again at Oxford Rd over Christmas

We all know the answer to that one...there should not be *any* crew changes on the Castlefield line at all. If they are needed, have them elsewhere.

But all-in-all - keep it simple (and high capacity) and it will be reliable.

 

[yorksrob]

You would still be travelling from Normanton on the ticket you already hold, and still entitled to claim if you couldn't travel because of the strikes, even if you would have been going to the Dales or anywhere else outside West Yorkshire if the normal service were running.

Obviously, there's no compensation for a journey you never paid for.

I didn't say anything about not being able to travel.

I've just had to pay through the nose to do so !

 

[Starmill]

I didn't say anything about not being able to travel.

I've just had to pay through the nose to do so !

I think I've made the point quite clear!

 

[quantinghome]

Both Network Rail and Northern are to blame.

Network Rail for failing to deliver infrastructure improvements on time.

Northern for failing to identify the proposed timetable was fundamentally but still blindly persisted and failed to change or notify passengers about the impending S-show that was about to unfold.

Each to their own.

Personally, if the government are going to have to pay Deutsche Bahn £31 million for unimplemented services and lost revenue, millions in compensation for conductor strikes and delay repay and additional payments through Network Rail for delayed infrastructure improvements then they may as well take the entire franchise in house and pay Deutsche Bahn off as all of the above is clearly not in the taxpayers' interests. The franchise is still a basket case that is funded a great deal by the taxpayer (35p in the £ for every mile isn't it?) and DB aren't doing very much to change that other than looking to pillage the franchise through penalty payments. It's not right from the taxpayers' perspective

Yes, they are both to blame, but for different things. The failure to deliver infrastructure on time has caused a delay to the roll-out of timetable improvements, electric services in the north-west, etc. But we've been waiting for those for a while and a daresay passengers can cope with the existing timetable for a year or two longer. What they can't cope with is a complete breakdown in service performance which lies squarely at Northern's door. And the DfT need to shoulder some responsibility given it is their circus and their monkeys.

 

[Starmill]

The franchise is still a basket case that is funded a great deal by the taxpayer (35p in the £ for every mile isn't it?) and DB aren't doing very much to change that other than looking to pillage the franchise through penalty payments.

The franchise has as you say successfully increased the subsidy that the taxpayer pays to support it. We can argue if this is or isn't down to Arriva, but in a way that doesn't really matter. At the end of the day the subsidy was projected to begin falling significantly but has instead gone up. This is of course of absolutely no surprise, given how unattractive the service is now compared to on day one of the franchise. Both the government and the company have presided over this, and in my view it's a pretty significant failure.

 

[PR1Berske]

DB did not expect the RMT to have its heels dug in so deep. Things really are not "One way traffic", so to speak. The (in)famous timetable disaster was not entirely Arriva's fault too - stuff like Ordsall Curve without platforms 15/16 can only be shared between Network Rail and DfT. It is very easy to type "DB/Arriva is a private TOC, all private TOCs are evil." The truth is far less cut and dried: there is nothing ostensibly wrong with private TOCs. What we see in the north is a mix of government intransigence, infrastructure failings and Trade Union stubbornness.