Travelling Short on Megatrain

[Helvellyn]

Oh god here we go, I'm going to say they put it up on their own website for download, but you'll say "You still need a licence".

To be fully truthful, the one I have was posted on here IIRC.

If ATOC or ATOS Origin have provided a link, that the public can access and download the software from, then that's a separate issue. But your post indicated that "railway staff" say you can't have it, and it implies we are the ones stopping NFM04 (and NFM05 from January) being available for free. That was my point in another thread about Avantix Traveller CDs not being available free from ATOC - it's not their software to give away free!

 

[thefab444]

No, maybe I worded it a bit wrongly. I meant that you (collective) didn't want it to be made freely available for download for some reason or other.

 

[Helvellyn]

No, maybe I worded it a bit wrongly. I meant that you (collective) didn't want it to be made freely available for download for some reason or other.

Ah, makes more sense. But as I said, the software is owned by a private company. I doubt they'd allow it to be downloaded legally for free, and as ATOC is funded by the rail companies, I hardly think they'd be keen on paying ATOS Origin even more money for the licences to make it freely available. They aren't cheap!

 

[Old Timer]

But the whole purpose of the offer is to fill up rooms which would normally be left empty, like Megatrain. Hotels regularly put these sort of offers out and hope you'll use the hotel's facilities and get them a bit of revenue that way.

Make it more like Megatrain if you like, imagine the offer was sold by InterContinental Hotels on their Green Room site on behalf of Holiday Inn Express. Revenue goes directly to ICHG.

I have never suggested Megatrain have lost. EMT has. On the hotel situation only YOU have lost. Actually I am surpised you didn't seek a pro-rata refund on the basis of what I have inferred from here.

Take the pencils example, I've not lost, 2 pencils singularly would have cost 50p, but a pack of 3 was 40p. I've not lost out, I've saved money.

Unlike the Railway, the supplier of those pencils has not lost. The correct price as charged was paid. What you do with thenm is a matter between you and your God.

First occasionally run offers where the journey from Sheffield (A) to the terminus (C) is £1.50. The ticket to my stop, B, is priced at £1.60, but if I ask for a ticket to point C and get off at point B there is no problem.

Not quite what the Bus Conditions of Carriage would agree with though ? Have you bothered to check ?

Technically illegal because the Bank of England sets maximum amounts of silver and copper that can be tendered to constitute Legal Tender. However, having worked in a toy shop I can tell you that if I didn't count those pennies I'd be in trouble, for the very reason you stated!

Illegal but in this case, fair enough.

Actually quite legal. A shop may refuse to take over a certain amount of coinage in payment quite legally. Interesting your concept of fair though.

The goods were faulty, you deserve a refund under the Sale of Goods Act.... so both unfair and illegal.

Actually as far as I can establish quite legal. The foil is classed as wear and tear by the Manufacturer and specifically excluded form the Guarantee. We shall see what Trading Standards view is shall we ?

Unless you buy through mail order, there is no legal right to a refund, but as long as the item was in sellable condition I see no reason why you would not fairly be offered a refund; Legal but unfair.

Annoying, but part of the course most of the time. The retailer should make it clear online that it is an online only price... so depending on that fair and legal.

Again a very interesting example of your logic on fair when we compare this with the Railway ticket scenario, where the conditions were made explicit.

They must put the price down to the advertised price or remove it from sale until the next working day, with an apology or explanation to make it fair. Otherwise it's illegal and unfair.

Any item for sale in a shop is classed as an “invitation to treat” in Law. You offer to pay the price, and the seller decides whether or not to accept your offer. That is why it is possible to negotiate a discount. There is NO compunction upon the seller to sell to you even if you offer the asking or a higher price. The decision rests with the seller. The fact that an item is wrongly priced is neither illegal or unfair UNLESS it was deliberately done with intent to mislead.

Breach of contract, illegal and unfair.

Incorrect. In Contract Law there is a requirement for the a party who discovers an error to bring this to the attention of the other party. In this case the Client would be able to claim damages for breach of Contract and could withhold payment from the point at which you knew there was an error.

 

[amn140174]

Not quite what the Bus Conditions of Carriage would agree with though ? Have you bothered to check ?

Funny for this to come up, for legal reasons I will not say much about this but somewhere in the country at this pesent moment the police have forwarded a file to the CPS about a bus driver for imprisoning a passenger that wanted to get of the bus after purchasing one of the discount tickets that was not available for the journey they made. The big issue is that the driver's employer contacted the police about the passenger but as soon as the police got there the passenger said he had been imprisoned by the driver.

 

[Failed Unit]

Your opinion NOT fact. You are now suggesting that the NCoCs rewritten to comply with the OFT are unenforcable ? Therefore fare evasion can not be dealt with ?

The T&C can be easily enforced, and indeed would be, by an RPI at Thetford, were one to be there at the material time.

You really do talk some nonsense or are not the sharpest tool in the box. I will try and keep it simple so you can keep up.

You show your megatrain ticket to the gaurd he is happy. you comply with the T&C's. You get off the train you break the T&C's. You show the RPI at Thetford your Ely - Thetford ticket, he is also happy as you have shown him a valid ticket. He has no reason to suspect or know about you megatrain ticket as you have just got off a train that has stopped at Ely. You go on your way. Please tell me exactly how you will be caught out doing this. Will the gaurd chase after you remembering you had a megatrain ticket? No? If he did will he be able to prove it? No you are not allowed to be stripped searched at a station and you have handed over a valid ticket!

Murder is a crime but unenforcable, because people get murdered all the time. Therefore on that basis we should repeal the Law ?

You are so funny, it is very hard to dispute a murder has happened, the body is normally found and/or someone misses the victim. Breaking T&C's in this example - no-one ever knows. Even if you shoplift stock taking shows up the crime happened. How does anyone ever know you got off the train short, even if they check the seats on arrival someone else may be sitting in it by Norwich!

[/quote]
It was intersting that those who shouted loudest were those who never actually PAID rates in any case (and never would do because so many were on benefits and would have been exempt anyway), aided and abetted by those who were quite happy for the rest of us to pay higher rates in order to subsidse their lifestyles.[/QUOTE]
Don't take the moral high ground with me, this is the railway industry that we are talking about. For a start the OP has paid correct fares they are just not complying with the T&C's . The railway industry overcharges customers every single day, have you read the latest which report on the subject. More than 50% of fares they asked for were overcharged. Then your read about people getting excessed on XC for using a EMT priced CDR ticket on an XC train during XC's CDR restrictions, there were no EMT ticket restrictions at the time. Getting excesses wrong etc, etc, etc. I am not blaming the staff here, but the overcomplicated fares system needs overhauling really I feel you should concentrate your efforts at this rather than trying to get moralistic on people that are infringing T's&C' but have in fact paid the full fare for what they are entitled for. When I see a which? report when only 10% of info is not correct I might not find your ranting so funny. I bet if you asked for a Kyle of Lochalsh 1st Class return and clearly stated you were coming back next week very few places would offer the all line rover? To me that crime is much worse than what we are debating here but the rail industry does it every day. (read the which survey they have an example where a rover was the better ticket, it wasn't offered in the majority of cases.) Then you read about them using nonsense to get out of paying compensation claims, yet the rail industry is probably as bad as ryanair for screwing customers, at least ryanair admit they will do it before hand.

I freely admit that what I am saying goes against the T&Cs, have I ever disputed this. To be totally clear I don't care, nor will I ever get a conviction of fare evastion when I can't get challenged for the reasons outlined. I would never travel on a journey with paying, I would break T&C's. In you opinion that is the same, in mine it isn't and no court has yet tested this in this exact case is it is impossible to know. As this is a public forum, I am also saying everyone should now do it merely point out it can be done.

Now old timer, you have another post you can cut an paste with meanless ATOC spin or anologies like breaking T&C's is the same as murder I hope you have a good day. "Helvellyn" on the other hand states why what I describe is wrong according to "the rules", but I get the feeling he also understands that it can't be enforced. Even my Sheffield - Luton example yes you don't have a valid ticket between London and Luton Airport parkway, but considering you never travel between these points an RPI will never know.

I guess we should take ATOC to court for overcharging in general, I have the feeling if we did this it would be the poor person they haven't bothered to train properly that would get it in the neck.

 

[Old Timer]

You really do talk some nonsense or are not the sharpest tool in the box. I will try and keep it simple so you can keep up..

If you wish to resort to personal abuse in order to put your point across then that is a matter for you. It is of no concern to me, however I would suggest that you need to be careful that the Moderators do not take issue with you.

….You get off the train you break the T&C's. You show the RPI at Thetford your Ely - Thetford ticket, he is also happy as you have shown him a valid ticket. He has no reason to suspect or know about you megatrain ticket as you have just got off a train that has stopped at Ely. You go on your way. Please tell me exactly how you will be caught out doing this. Will the gaurd chase after you remembering you had a megatrain ticket? No? If he did will he be able to prove it? No you are not allowed to be stripped searched at a station and you have handed over a valid ticket!k.

Your example only works if both trains stop at the same time, otherwise I fully expect the RPI to identify the fact that the person has gotten off the Norwich train.

RPIs are quite experienced in the fact that people will avoid them once they are spotted, and skulking around a station waiting for another train is a classic sign of fare evasion, as well as is crossing over to the other platform.

Nobody has ever suggested that anyone is going to chase after someone with the exception of yourself and then you talk of imprisonment, holding and stripping people.

You are so funny, it is very hard to dispute a murder has happened, the body is normally found and/or someone misses the victim. Breaking T&C's in this example - no-one ever knows. Even if you shoplift stock taking shows up the crime happened. Ho w does anyone ever know you got off the train short, even if they check the seats on arrival someone else may be sitting in it by Norwich!.

Shall we place my comments in context ? You argued that if a Law cannot be enforced that it can be ignored and should be repealed. I pointed out that the Law against murder can never be enforced, only the consequences of it. Your position was clear, that under your interpretation fare evasion was unenforceable. On that thinking making it illegal to murder someone cannot be enforced so we can ignore that then ?

Don't take the moral high ground with me, this is the railway industry that we are talking about. For a start the OP has paid correct fares they are just not complying with the T&C's ..

Really ? Even the OP accepts that they have not paid the correct fare for the journey to Thetford. It is clearly more expensive to buy the ticket to Thetford as against Norwich. Please tell me what the normal fares are between say Sheffield and Thetford/Norwich, as I believe that is the journey being made, and then compare them with the fare paid to Norwich using Megatrain.

The railway industry overcharges customers every single day, have you read the latest which report on the subject. More than 50% of fares they asked for were overcharged. Then your read about people getting excessed on XC for using a EMT priced CDR ticket on an XC train during XC's CDR restrictions, there were no EMT ticket restrictions at the time. Getting excesses wrong etc, etc, etc. I am not blaming the staff here, but the overcomplicated fares system needs overhauling really I feel you should concentrate your efforts at this rather than trying to get moralistic on people that are infringing T's&C' but have in fact paid the full fare for what they are entitled for. When I see a which? report when only 10% of info is not correct I might not find your ranting so funny. I bet if you asked for a Kyle of Lochalsh 1st Class return and clearly stated you were coming back next week very few places would offer the all line rover? To me that crime is much worse than what we are debating here but the rail industry does it every day. (read the which survey they have an example where a rover was the better ticket, it wasn't offered in the majority of cases.) Then you read about them using nonsense to get out of paying compensation claims, yet the rail industry is probably as bad as ryanair for screwing customers, at least ryanair admit they will do it before hand. .

These matters are not what we are discussing in this particular topic. If you have evidence of improper practice then there are various routes by which you can raise this for investigation, ranging from the Police, through the OFT, the Media and finally the Political route through your MP and/or the Transport Minister.

As for Ryanair nobody has ever forced you to use them. If you want to pay £10 for a journey that typically costs several hundreds of pounds you must accept that there will be restrictions and other charges. If you don’t want to pay them them then pay full price and go via BA or one of the other National airlines. You cannot pay for a mini and expect a Rolls Royce.

Incidentally do you have any evidence to back up your claims about Ryanair or is it simply a regurgitation of media hype ?

I freely admit that what I am saying goes against the T&Cs, have I ever disputed this. To be totally clear I don't care, nor will I ever get a conviction of fare evastion when I can't get challenged for the reasons outlined. I would never travel on a journey with paying, I would break T&C's. In you opinion that is the same, in mine it isn't and no court has yet tested this in this exact case is it is impossible to know. As this is a public forum, I am also saying everyone should now do it merely point out it can be done.

There is very clear Contract Law as to the validity of T&Cs, but in any case it is merely your opinion that the T&Cs are not enforceable in Law. Were that to be the case then I would not regularly read posters naming those who have been Prosecuted by the local TOC for fare evasion. Those Prosecutions will have used the NCoCs in support.

I would suggest you read DaveNewcastle's excellent posts which confirm that the Law is not concerned with what people consider to be fair or equitable, but simply what has been set out in Law.

You continue to insist that the NCoCs are unenforceable. Neither myself, nor Helvellyn, are in agreement with this view and indeed both of us have clear experience that this is not the case. If you believe that the NCoCs are unenforceable then I suggest you put this to ATOC or the local Citizens Advice Bureau and let us know what the answer is ?

Now old timer, you have another post you can cut an paste with meanless ATOC spin or anologies like breaking T&C's is the same as murder k.

I apologise for no one. I simply have pointed out the legal position with regards to what was proposed, which was the deliberate breaking of the T&Cs under which the ticket was issued. The Murder analogy was a good example in demonstrating the manifest ludicrousness of the position you took in making the claim that you did.

I have had experience in dealing with fare evasion, and in Prosecuting fare evaders. I think this gives me a better insight into what is likely to be the outcome, being based upon experience, not some confused emotional argument that seeks to justify the breaking of T&Cs because a person has a view as to the fairness of the level of rail fares.

That particular issue is one you should take forward in a proper manner, rather than suggest people break the NCoCs whilst using this as an excuse to justify fare evasion.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you wish to resort to personal abuse in order to put your point across then that is a matter for you. It is of no concern to me, however I would suggest that you need to be careful that the Moderators do not take issue with you.

I appologise for this.

Your example only works if both trains stop at the same time, otherwise I fully expect the RPI to identify the fact that the person has gotten off the Norwich train.

Actually, if you read my example which is immoral of course I said I would have a ticket from Ely - Thetford. The train has already stopped at Ely, so the RPI would have no issue to suspect me. Likewise a conviction would be very hard to get. The RPI is happy I have given them a valid ticket that could be used on the train I have just got off. They could get CCTV evidence to prove I was on the train before Ely, but they can't prove I didn't have a valid ticket for been on before hand. The CCTV would show me handing over a document the gaurd was happy to accept. All this is wonderful stuff, shame that where I live I can never use a megatrain even if I wanted to.

 

[Old Timer]

Apology accepted unconditionally, no offence taken. Thank you.

Sorry I missed the Ely bit...speed reading in a rush.

In that case then I fully accept that you can show you have arrived with a valid ticket for that section of the journey and this will be accepted unless of course that the RPI has reason to believe that the you are actually involved in fare evasion.

I also accept that on a single journey and done in this manner that this would be almost impossible to prove. It does not of course alter the fact that it is wrong, and indeed strengthens any argument about it being deliberate fare evasion, because we now have very clear and definite intent under Section (2)(1) of the Theft Act 1978.

 

[Failed Unit]

I also accept that on a single journey and done in this manner that this would be almost impossible to prove. It does not of course alter the fact that it is wrong, and indeed strengthens any argument about it being deliberate fare evasion, because we now have very clear and definite intent under Section (2)(1) of the Theft Act 1978.

Which I would not dispute, it would be very difficult to get a conviction, CCTV helps of course but probably not in this example, this kind of thing happens at many stations with barriers. People will always find a way around T&C's like this one because very difficult to enforce. (I won't use impossible nothing is impossible).

 

[dk1]

Driving trains through Thetford every day i have never seen RPIs at this station. Also it is used as a thoroughfare from Thetford town centre to the North side/allotments so people are always passing from one side to the other with no intenetion of using the train service. On your return however i dont know where you would stand getting on here rather than Norwich. Many EMT conductors do not start their ticket checks on Westbound services til after here if barriers are in operation at Norwich.

 

[WillPS]

Mmmkay, well seeing as this thread has just about run its course, I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank everybody who contributed this debate - on either side. Special thanks to Helvellyn, Old Timer, DaveNewcastle, CeliaDrummond, Failed Unit and Yorkie.

It's a sign of a very cohesive community when a debate can run like this with no cause for personal upset, I'm a member of quite a few places where this almost certainly wouldn't happen (both railway and otherwise). Although we disagree, it has been expressed with respect I feel and that's whats important.

Thanks once again,
Will

 

[Old Timer]

Thank you for your comments.

Happy Christmas and best wishes for the New Year to you and yours.