Merseyrail to Liverpool Airport

[VT 390]

Would it be possible to give Liverpool Airport a direct rail service by extending Merseyrail services?
My idea would be that a new tunnel could be constructed after Liverpool South Parkway curving south to the Airport. This could be done by having a tunnel entrance constructed either side of the Merseyrail lines (between the WCML bridge over the Merseyrail lines and Speke Junction) with one tunnel for the up and one for the down lines. The two tunnels could then run alongside each other curving south towards the airport with an underground station at the airport, either with 1 or 2 platforms (depending on service frequency) and a crossover/junction joining the up and down lines just north of the new station.
There would not need to be and extra capacity in the Northern line tunnels around liverpool central as the Ormskirk or Kirkby services which currently terminate at central could be extended south (possibly non-stop Central to South Parkway) giving 4 or 8 trains an hour to the airport depending how many services were extended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've looked at it before (on Street View and an OS map as well as having driven around there) and I reckon it could be done without a tunnel at ground level. Though due to the relative levels of things, it might be easier to do it with the mainline than with Merseyrail and run a simple shuttle to Lime St.

 

[VT 390]

it might be easier to do it with the mainline than with Merseyrail and run a simple shuttle to Lime St.

Would there be enough capacity on the approaches/Platforms to Lime Street to run a service which is frequent enough that people would use it instead of changing at Parkway?

 

[ivanhoe]

The problem with the idea is that for all intents and purposes, JLA is a low cost airport operation. Not sure that the holy grail of a rail link would ever happen under a Merseyrail banner unless dare I say it, a tram idea came along. If Merseytram is ever resurrected in the future, it would have to a have a Southern Branch which would effectively be a City Centre Airport link, probably taking the current route of the 86 service to JLA.

 

[6Gman]

Would it be possible to give Liverpool Airport a direct rail service by extending Merseyrail services?
My idea would be that a new tunnel could be constructed after Liverpool South Parkway curving south to the Airport. This could be done by having a tunnel entrance constructed either side of the Merseyrail lines (between the WCML bridge over the Merseyrail lines and Speke Junction) with one tunnel for the up and one for the down lines. The two tunnels could then run alongside each other curving south towards the airport with an underground station at the airport, either with 1 or 2 platforms (depending on service frequency) and a crossover/junction joining the up and down lines just north of the new station.
There would not need to be and extra capacity in the Northern line tunnels around liverpool central as the Ormskirk or Kirkby services which currently terminate at central could be extended south (possibly non-stop Central to South Parkway) giving 4 or 8 trains an hour to the airport depending how many services were extended.

Well, (almost) anything is possible if you throw enough money at it but I can see a number of problems.

1. Your proposed underground chords would have to be fitted in to quite a tight area. The bridge to Speke Jn is only c.50 chains (1100 yds) and the bridge to Hunts Cross West Jn is only c.30 chains (660 yds). Not sure what gradients that would require.
2. The airport really isn't terribly busy. The most recent figures I can find list it at 4.7M passengers pa; Manchester is 26M! It is a lower figure than Edinburgh, Bristol or Newcastle. (I never even knew Newcastle had an airport!)
3. Manchester Airport benefits from having direct links from several directions - South (Crewe), West (Liverpool & Chester), North & East (Preston, Scotland, Yorkshire). Difficult to see how an Airport - Southport service would be as attractive.

So in summary, hugely expensive to meet a limited market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Difficult to see how an Airport - Southport service would be as attractive.

This is the old "Manchester Airport needs direct trains to everywhere in the North" fallacy. That you can only take the Tube, HEx or HConn to Heathrow does not stop people using it. Merseyrail is a frequent S-Bahn type service and making connections is an integral part of that kind of system.

 

[6Gman]

This is the old "Manchester Airport needs direct trains to everywhere in the North" fallacy. That you can only take the Tube, HEx or HConn to Heathrow does not stop people using it. Merseyrail is a frequent S-Bahn type service and making connections is an integral part of that kind of system.

But for people carrying luggage (as people catching flights tend to have) through services have a particular attraction. Especially relevant in this case where transferring from long distance services to such an airport link is particularly problematic. (A Merseyrail service to the Airport would not serve Lime Street, and the transfer at South Parkway is lengthy with three lifts and two barriers to negotiate)

 

[Bletchleyite]

But for people carrying luggage (as people catching flights tend to have) through services have a particular attraction. Especially relevant in this case where transferring from long distance services to such an airport link is particularly problematic. (A Merseyrail service to the Airport would not serve Lime Street, and the transfer at South Parkway is lengthy with three lifts and two barriers to negotiate)

People catching short-haul low-cost flights tend to minimise luggage due to the cost of not doing so. And a much easier Lime St-Airport interchange would be the easy, step free walk from Lime St to Central.

 

[Greybeard33]

What is so terrible about the current bus link to the Airport to justify such a large investment? Less than 10 minutes from South Parkway station, with an easy change from either the Northern line or main line services (lifts available for those with heavy luggage). And more frequent than any likely rail service.

 

[6Gman]

What is so terrible about the current bus link to the Airport to justify such a large investment? Less than 10 minutes from South Parkway station, with an easy change from either the Northern line or main line services (lifts available for those with heavy luggage). And more frequent than any likely rail service.

It doesn't give people an excuse to get out their crayons?



It does look like a huge investment to little purpose.

 

[Chester1]

It doesn't give people an excuse to get out their crayons?



It does look like a huge investment to little purpose.

It is also gets proposed because Manchester has a proper airport station therefore Liverpool must have one... Bottom line is Manchester is a vastly bigger airport and the link was built across open land. A bus connection from Parkway is adequate for a budget airline airport with passengers with generally cabin luggage only. The Halton Curve resolves the biggest issue with getting to the Airport by public transport. It is astounding that it will have taken so long for Chester and North Wales to get a decent journey time to South Parkway.

 

[Clip]

To be fair to those who call it a 'budget' airport - so were stanstead and Luton( and mainly still are) and they have nice dedicated rail links (ok luton needs a quick bus but has very frequent trains) so why shouldnt Liverpool have a rail link and possibly have the same up turn in business to then cater for longer haul flights?

 

[Chester1]

To be fair to those who call it a 'budget' airport - so were stanstead and Luton( and mainly still are) and they have nice dedicated rail links (ok luton needs a quick bus but has very frequent trains) so why shouldnt Liverpool have a rail link and possibly have the same up turn in business to then cater for longer haul flights?

Luton has a Parkway station like Liverpool with a bus link to the Airport, it just that the MML runs a bit nearer to the Airport. Liverpool South Parkway and Luton Airport Parkway are directly comparable. Stansted has a purpose built link like Manchester but it also has fortunate geography. Both have more than 5 times the passengers as Liverpool Airport. A heavy rail link to Liverpool Airport would cost vastly more than could be justified by an Airport with 4.5m annual passengers. A light rail link would have been viable. Why an earth was Kirkby chosen for the first line?

 

[johnmoly]

Luton has a Parkway station like Liverpool with a bus link to the Airport, it just that the MML runs a bit nearer to the Airport. Liverpool South Parkway and Luton Airport Parkway are directly comparable. Stansted has a purpose built link like Manchester but it also has fortunate geography. Both have more than 5 times the passengers as Liverpool Airport. A heavy rail link to Liverpool Airport would cost vastly more than could be justified by an Airport with 4.5m annual passengers. A light rail link would have been viable. Why an earth was Kirkby chosen for the first line?

I've been saying that for years, even when the Merseytram seemed likely, why go to Kirkby with a train every 15 minutes, during the day, why not go to the airport instead. Probably a lot of councillors lived along the route to Kirkby at the time.

 

[Bevan Price]

If there was to be a new railway, a better target would be a tunnel serving the centre of the large suburb of Speke, with the Airport as a secondary target.

 

[Clip]

Luton has a Parkway station like Liverpool with a bus link to the Airport, it just that the MML runs a bit nearer to the Airport. Liverpool South Parkway and Luton Airport Parkway are directly comparable. Stansted has a purpose built link like Manchester but it also has fortunate geography. Both have more than 5 times the passengers as Liverpool Airport. A heavy rail link to Liverpool Airport would cost vastly more than could be justified by an Airport with 4.5m annual passengers. A light rail link would have been viable. Why an earth was Kirkby chosen for the first line?

Now do you think that both of those airports have grown like they have in the same amount of time through either

A) Blind luck
B) Having decent links including rail to them?

 

[Flying Claret]

Now do you think that both of those airports have grown like they have in the same amount of time through either

A) Blind luck
B) Having decent links including rail to them?

Or
C) both being rebranded as 'London' airports...?

 

[Chester1]

Now do you think that both of those airports have grown like they have in the same amount of time through either

A) Blind luck
B) Having decent links including rail to them?

Or
C) both being rebranded as 'London' airports...?

Unless rail has an 80% modal share its not just a rail link! A Liverpool rail link is not going to happen. The cost woud be obscene for the size of the airport. There are much better ways to spend the money it would cost including in Merseyside. Think of other ways Merseyrail could be extended for the best part of a billion pounds. It would need an expensive junction, a long tunnel and probably a submerged station near the terminal!

 

[Meerkat]

Just spend some money making the bus faster, or more importantly feel faster - good steady pace with few as possible red lights. Make it feel like an express service.

Remember that if you drive to long stay parking you end up on a bus.

 

[6Gman]

Unless rail has an 80% modal share its not just a rail link! A Liverpool rail link is not going to happen. The cost woud be obscene for the size of the airport. There are much better ways to spend the money it would cost including in Merseyside. Think of other ways Merseyrail could be extended for the best part of a billion pounds. It would need an expensive junction, a long tunnel and probably a submerged station near the terminal!

Precisely.

 

[PR1Berske]

This is an often repeated idea and I'm in two minds over it. Lots of technical reasons above set out why it's an engineering challenge which might be too difficult to fix. Also it is not a very busy airport at all, making the cost of creating the link look highly dubious on a cost benefit analysis.

I'm also certain that the nearby shopping area being a geographic block to any planned link.

With all that negative stuff said, it is a shame that such a link is missing. Asking passengers to take a bus from Parkway is a bit much. Asking passengers to drive along a very busy congested road with an existing railway so close is a bit much.

Maybe the solution is trams?

 

[VT 390]

Maybe the solution is trams?

If the airport was served by trams then could part of the Merseyrail network operate with Tram-Trains?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well, (almost) anything is possible if you throw enough money at it but I can see a number of problems.


2. The airport really isn't terribly busy. The most recent figures I can find list it at 4.7M passengers pa; Manchester is 26M! It is a lower figure than Edinburgh, Bristol or Newcastle. (I never even knew Newcastle had an airport!)


So in summary, hugely expensive to meet a limited market.

Was Newcastle Airport as busy before the metro ran out to it ? If you improve access surely it will lead to greater usage ?

 

[6Gman]

Was Newcastle Airport as busy before the metro ran out to it ? If you improve access surely it will lead to greater usage ?

Probably. Doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the airport was served by trams then could part of the Merseyrail network operate with Tram-Trains?

Merseyrail is quite punctual and reliable, and really doesn't require messing up with that kind of thing which will by its nature be less so.

On another point, Luton was mentioned upthread as an (primarily budget) airport with a shuttle bus - it is going to get a Gatwick style rubber tyred people mover in the not too distant future.

 

[M28361M]

Looking at the map, the "easiest" way to do it would be a spur off the WCML, starting roughly where the A561 crosses the railway, then go along the edge of the Speke estate and into the airport from the east. Not much in the way of buildings to demolish, but a few road bridges to build.

But I can't imagine that any national rail operators would divert their services into the station, so it would probably be a dedicated service into Lime Street as part of the City Line - change at South Parkway or Lime Street for the rest of the country.

Really, I think a tram would be the way to go. Line 3 of the abandoned Merseytram scheme was supposed to go to the airport, and I believe passive provision for tram interchange was included when Liverpool South Parkway was built.

 

[30907]

Probably. Doesn't mean it makes sense.

The statistics are interesting.
Newcastle Airport traffic doubled between 1997 and 2007.
The Metro extension opened 1991, when the airport was already fairly busy with traditional and holiday services.
Liverpool Airport in the same 10 years increased 6fold.
Levels were then similar at both airports and are fairly static at both.

 

[Bantamzen]

If there was to be a new railway, a better target would be a tunnel serving the centre of the large suburb of Speke, with the Airport as a secondary target.

A better target still would be a western approach to Manchester Airport rather than one to Liverpool. This would allow through trains to use the line rather & terminate at Piccadilly rather than going through there & terminating at Manchester Airport. Plus it would open up additional options for connectivity from Merseyside, Cheshire & Wales, although this would annoy those who think that Manchester's heavy rail network should be am S-Bahn system, with shuttles running at clock face times so it looks nice & neat on a timetable (even though this wouldn't grow demand, which is what the airport owners are hoping for).

 

[Bletchleyite]

this would annoy those who think that Manchester's heavy rail network should be am S-Bahn system, with shuttles running at clock face times so it looks nice & neat on a timetable (even though this wouldn't grow demand, which is what the airport owners are hoping for).

Presumably you have not seen the success of S-Bahnen serving airports in Germany and Switzerland? Making the Styal line's local service not rubbish would certainly grow demand - day in, day out demand, not once a year for a week in Malaga demand. Merseyrail is evidence enough.

 

[Bantamzen]

Presumably you have not seen the success of S-Bahnen serving airports in Germany and Switzerland? Making the Styal line's local service not rubbish would certainly grow demand - day in, day out demand, not once a year for a week in Malaga demand. Merseyrail is evidence enough.

I am indeed, but Manchester is not just a bucket & spade destination serving airport. Its international routes are growing rapidly, and it has plans to grow them further with the billion plus investment its currently undertaking. Airports like Liverpool, LBA, Doncaster are increasing starting to soak up additional short haul demand that is over spilling from Manchester. This is why I think the western approach to Manchester Airport is increasingly needed over a spur to Liverpool airport, & indeed trying to increase frequency for Style line passengers. Central Manchester doesn't have the infrastructure yet for S-Bahn style services, it has to cater for both local commuters & longer distance passengers. That's the reality of the situation, and whilst many in Greater Manchester would disagree, the very same would probably be bemoaning increased footfall in places like Piccadilly, and eventually the motorway network if the S-Bahn idea were taken up without some serious additional investment in the infrastructure.

However if the PTE & local authorities in Merseyside were able to fund any budget for a Liverpool Airport spur internally then fair enough, I just don't think it ought to be funded nationally in front of a western approach if the option were ever there.