Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[palmersears]

I thought Buxton is supposed to start sharing units with the Mid-Cheshire when Northern get their act together.

If it's happening any time soon the Northern Random Unit Generator will need a bit of tweaking to ensure a 142 (which cannot go beyond Hazel Grove) doesn't turn up.

 

[big all]

ok at 50 tonnes a motor coach grip definately wont be a problem in normal use
the greater the powered weight as a percentage off the load the better

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Thank you everyone for you knowledge and input. Turns out their wont be an issue.

 

[Greybeard33]

The class 319/4 weighs approximately as follows:

DTSO - 29 t. tare all seats occupied add 5.92 t. fully crush loaded at 4 passengers per m^2 add 13.696 t.

MSO - 50 t. tare all seats occupied add 6.16 t. fully crush loaded at 4 passengers per m^2 add 14.304 t.
TSOL - 31 t. tare all seats occupied add 5.76 t. fully crush loaded at 4 passengers per m^2 add 13.216 t.
DTCO - 29.7 t. tare all seats occupied add 5.92 t. fully crush loaded at 4 passengers per m^2 add 13.696 t.
therefore the total proportions of weight available for adhesion is: 36% when empty, 34.5% with all seats occupied and 32% with a full crush load (something that regularly happened in Thameslink service)
now add your figure of 20 t. for the new equipment (not sure if it is correct but lets assume that it is), that means that the three figures above become:
31% empty, 30.7% all seated and 29.6 when crush loaded. So in reality, if these modified units ever do reach such heavily loaded levels as they experienced regularly in London and the South-East, adhesion is unlikely to be a severe restriction on their performance.
As has been said several times elsewhere, there is sufficient power to drive them away from a standing start ona 1:29 gradient, so under the wires I doubt whether anything in those areas planning to use them would exceed that even with a permanent possible 20t. deadweight. As for diesel operation, the power available at release of brakes and through much of the acceleration range will be greater than a pair of class 150s.

According to https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/ (previously linked in Post #2185), the additional weight in each DT is actually 7.5t, so a total of 15t per unit more than the 319.

The article also said:

The rated output of two diesel engines at 780kW is the maximum they can produce. By the time alternator efficiency, auxiliary supplies, and traction control efficiency are taken into account, the electrical input to the traction motors will be approximately 550kW, little more than half the maximum rated output of the traction motors.

According to Wabtec modelling,

Compared with a Class 150, the Class 769 has a higher tractive effort on starting, but the tractive effort falls away more steeply. This difference in tractive effort curves makes it difficult simply to predict performance on any particular route, illustrating the importance and value of modelling. Modelling has shown the gradient balancing speed on a flat gradient when powered by the diesel engines to be approximately 87mph and the trains will retain the 100mph capability when powered by electricity. The modelling has also shown that two 1000-litre fuel tanks should be ample for the expected duty.

This suggests that, provided adhesion is adequate, a 769 on diesel might outperform a 150 on a route with closely spaced stops, but the 150 might have the legs if the stop spacings enable it to attain its 75mph maximum between them.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

According to https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/ (previously linked in Post #2185), the additional weight in each DT is actually 7.5t, so a total of 15t per unit more than the 319.

The article also said:

According to Wabtec modelling,

This suggests that, provided adhesion is adequate, a 769 on diesel might outperform a 150 on a route with closely spaced stops, but the 150 might have the legs if the stop spacings enable it to attain its 75mph maximum between them.

Interesting. Thanks for the article link.

 

[big all]

According to https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/ (previously linked in Post #2185), the additional weight in each DT is actually 7.5t, so a total of 15t per unit more than the 319.

The article also said:

According to Wabtec modelling,

This suggests that, provided adhesion is adequate, a 769 on diesel might outperform a 150 on a route with closely spaced stops, but the 150 might have the legs if the stop spacings enable it to attain its 75mph maximum between them.

so is that 7.5 t with or without the tonne off fuel ??
87mph ballance speed means a maximum off around 75 unless an excessive distance between stations or down hill with a prevailing wind

 

[Greybeard33]

so is that 7.5 t with or without the tonne off fuel ??
87mph ballance speed means a maximum off around 75 unless an excessive distance between stations or down hill with a prevailing wind

The wording in the article was:

The modifications add approximately 7.5 tonnes to the DT vehicle. In discussion about the impact of this extra mass, [Wabtec] revealed that finite element analysis of the bodyshell had been carried out, that the axles are strong enough, and that the suspension and brake cylinder pressures had been adjusted to compensate for the additional mass.

Your guess is as good as mine as to whether or not the 7.5t includes the fuel mass.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The wording in the article was:

Your guess is as good as mine as to whether or not the 7.5t includes the fuel mass.

Probably not as they would most likely want to state the modification in its lightest form.

 

[coppercapped]

Probably not as they would most likely want to state the modification in its lightest form.

One litre of diesel has a mass of about 0.83kg. (I write 'about' as the density varies slightly with the fuel grade).
Therefore 1000 litres - guessing the fuel tank capacity for each engine - weighs 830 kg, less than a tonne.
So the difference in total mass for the 4 coach unit between no fuel and full fuel will be about 1.6 tonnes. Not a big difference in the scheme of things.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

One litre of diesel has a mass of about 0.83kg. (I write 'about' as the density varies slightly with the fuel grade).
Therefore 1000 litres - guessing the fuel tank capacity for each engine - weighs 830 kg, less than a tonne.
So the difference in total mass for the 4 coach unit between no fuel and full fuel will be about 1.6 tonnes. Not a big difference in the scheme of things.

No. I do think that 7.5 tonnes with or without fuel is a decent mass for what they have added. I would of expected it to be a bit more.

 

[big all]

Probably not as they would most likely want to state the modification in its lightest form.

ok thanks
i am actually quite pleased the motor coaches are actually 50t and the dts are 29
because this means assuming the traction motors are around perhaps 7-10ton for 4 that places the body load to similar level to the dts with an engine and fuel slung under meaning the only possible problems structurally would be vibration related rather than greater than designed load stress related

 

[Charlie Smythe]

ok thanks
i am actually quite pleased the motor coaches are actually 50t and the dts are 29
because this means assuming the traction motors are around perhaps 7-10ton for 4 that places the body load to similar level to the dts with an engine and fuel slung under meaning the only possible problems structurally would be vibration related rather than greater than designed load stress related

I don't think that there will be any structural issues regarding vibration and if there are with is highly unlikely, i am sure they will be sorted during testing.

 

[big all]

I don't think that there will be any structural issues regarding vibration and if there are with is highly unlikely, i am sure they will be sorted during testing.

as others seem to want this concept to fail or fall short i am so so keen that this innovative idea brings great results and rewards

 

[coppercapped]

I don't think that there will be any structural issues regarding vibration and if there are with is highly unlikely, i am sure they will be sorted during testing.

What do you think design engineers do for a living? Nobody will simply sling a powerpack under a coach to see if it bends - it's all calculated in advance. There might be the need for some fine tuning of things like suspension point stiffnesses but there will be no big surprises.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What do you think design engineers do for a living? Nobody will simply sling a powerpack under a coach to see if it bends - it's all calculated in advance. There might be the need for some fine tuning of things like suspension point stiffnesses but there will be no big surprises.

Why are you having a go at me? I just simply replied to @big all who said "possible problems structurally would be vibration related rather than greater than designed load stress related". I said that any issues regarding vibration is very unlikely. I fail to see what i have said that is wrong.

 

[big all]

Why are you having a go at me? I just simply replied to @big all who said "possible problems structurally would be vibration related rather than greater than designed load stress related". I said that any issues regarding vibration is very unlikely. I fail to see what i have said that is wrong.

i am sure coppercapped was trying to be helpful in his own way
we are all different connected with the lack off facial voice and tone ques on a forum as opposed to face to face mean we are often misunderstood

 

[paddyb6]

As it stands, when is the earliest these will be in service? If ever?

 

[Cardiff123]

As it stands, when is the earliest these will be in service? If ever?

Northern and TfW are planning (and hoping) for the May 2019 timetable change.

 

[Mathew S]

Does anyone know if it is still Northern's international to deploy these on the Wigan - Alderley Edge - Wigan - Stalybridge diagrams?

And, if so, have they been cleared to Southport? Or will the Alderley services that run to/from the seaside still be 150/156/142 worked?

 

[Mogster]

Bi modes would seem ideal for the Southport line as wiring under Wigan Wallgate bridge is apparently very unlikely and Bolton onwards will soon be wired.

 

[Mathew S]

Bi modes would seem ideal for the Southport line as wiring under Wigan Wallgate bridge is apparently very unlikely and Bolton onwards will soon be wired.

With the exception of a few peak services, nothing to/from Southport runs via Bolton anymore. It's the Stalyvegas/Alderley services which run via Bolton and terminate at Wigan NW.

 

[Greybeard33]

Except with the exception of a few peak services, nothing to/from Southport runs via Bolton anymore. It's the Stalyvegas/Alderley services which run via Bolton and terminate at Wigan NW.

In the morning peak, 3 services from Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton and one to Stalybridge via Bolton. In the evening peak, 3 services from Alderley Edge to Southport via Bolton. All other Southport services run via Atherton, mostly to/from Leeds or Blackburn via Todmorden. The Atherton line has no wires west of Salford Crescent.

 

[Mathew S]

In the morning peak, 3 services from Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton and one to Stalybridge via Bolton. In the evening peak, 3 services from Alderley Edge to Southport via Bolton. All other Southport services run via Atherton, mostly to/from Leeds or Blackburn via Todmorden. The Atherton line has no wires west of Salford Crescent.

Indeed. That's what made me wonder whether the 769s would run those few services, or whether they would remain 142/150/156 operated. If, of course, it's still the intention that the 769s will work the rest of the Stalybridge/Alderley services from Wigan NW.

Can you, for example, run a 769 through Wigan Wallgate? I believe 153s don't fit, for example.

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed. That's what made me wonder whether the 769s would run those few services, or whether they would remain 142/150/156 operated. If, of course, it's still the intention that the 769s will work the rest of the Stalybridge/Alderley services from Wigan NW.

Can you, for example, run a 769 through Wigan Wallgate? I believe 153s don't fit, for example.

A 769 has 20m carriages, of similar dimensions to those of a 150, so it should be able to go anywhere a 150 can (the 153/5/6/8 all have 23m carriages).

But I doubt that there will be enough 769s to work all the Southport - Alderley peak diagrams.

 

[scrapy]

With the exception of a few peak services, nothing to/from Southport runs via Bolton anymore. It's the Stalyvegas/Alderley services which run via Bolton and terminate at Wigan NW.

From May 2019 Northern (under pressure from local rail users group) are looking at running the services which originate from Alderley Edge and now terminate at Wigan through to Southport. The trains which are currently from Leeds to Southport would terminate at Wigan NW instead.

If this happens the Stalybridge to Wigans would be on the same diagrams as the Leeds to Wigans so very unlikely to use 769s. This would probably then leave enough 769s to operate most Alderley to Southports.

 

[Mathew S]

From May 2019 Northern (under pressure from local rail users group) are looking at running the services which originate from Alderley Edge and now terminate at Wigan through to Southport. The trains which are currently from Leeds to Southport would terminate at Wigan NW instead.

If this happens the Stalybridge to Wigans would be on the same diagrams as the Leeds to Wigans so very unlikely to use 769s. This would probably then leave enough 769s to operate most Alderley to Southports.

So, I've just spent a couple of hours collating data from RTT to recreate most, if not all, of the diagrams which work services from Southport/Wigan/Kirkby - Manchester/Stalybridge/Alderley Edge/Leeds/Blackburn.
There are six diagrams which work the majority of (the above) services via Bolton throughout the day so, to me, it would seem to make sense for Northern to start the 769s on those.

If, as you suggest, the idea is to switch all the Alderley services to Southport, then diagrams will have to change anyway; but by my reckoning the 8 units on order would be the minimum needed to run all the Alderley - Southport services. Not sure I think that's wise as it leaves no slack at all for maintenance, for example. Or has the order gone up to more than 8 while I've not been paying attention?

 

[trubla]

319 456 at Quorn on The Great Central Railway today. Renumbered 379 464 was down the line at Swithland sidings.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

319 456 at Quorn on The Great Central Railway today. Renumbered 379 464 was down the line at Swithland sidings.
View attachment 57426 View attachment 57427

Got to say they do look smart in that livery. Were they running that day when you were there, or just parked in sidings?

 

[trubla]

They were not running as steam train were in operation yesterday and today. Maybe during the week they will be out and about being tested.

 

[jfollows]

According to today's Times newspaper, two of these modified units are to be used for rail freight, for moving parcels starting in the run-up to Christmas 2019.

If it comes to pass it will be a good thing to see, of course, but my priority is to see them on the Alderley Edge to Wigan services to replace the dreadful rolling stock we currently have to endure after years of reliable electric trains on (almost) all our local services .....

Poetic return for Auden’s night train in era of ecommerce
Robert Lea, Industrial Editor


January 2 2019, 12:01am, The Times

Commuter trains are being converted to carry parcels as the rail industry adjusts to the needs of ecommerce and ushers in a new age for the mail train.

Demand from parcel delivery companies has prompted Rail Operations Group, a rail freight company, to lease two trains to begin the mass movement of packages and parcels.

It has struck a deal with Porterbrook, a train leasing company, to take two bi-modal Flex trains, units that can switch between electric and diesel depending on the railway line, meaning that they can travel anywhere on the network. The trains originally were built for passengers on Thameslink, the north-south cross-London commuter route.

“The time is right for a shift from road to rail for logistics and express parcels services,” said Karl Watts, chief executive of ROG, who founded the company in 2015 with an eye to providing the hire and chartering of trains. He believes that economic, commercial and environmental demands to cut the number of vehicles on the roads means that there is an opportunity “to re-establish a comprehensive network of express parcels trains”.

Porterbrook reckons that it, too, has spotted a gap in the market for parcel rail freight as Britain’s roads become more congested. “The UK’s light logistics sector is experiencing huge changes,” Mary Grant, its chief executive, said. “We will be exploring further opportunities to support the rail freight sector.”

Porterbrook says the green credentials of its Flex trains mean that they will be able to deliver parcels into inner-city stations. Ms Grant believes that such trains also will help shippers’ needs for next-day delivery and business-to-business, just-in-time logistics.

The mail train has a famous history in Britain, from the 1963 heist that became known as the Great Train Robbery to WH Auden’s poem Night Mail, which talked of: “This is the night mail crossing the border, Bringing the cheque and the postal order.”

In reality the mail train never went away. The Royal Mail continues to operate 16 dedicated mail trains, though after years of switching the post to large lorries that is down from the 49 at the time the Great Train Robbery. Those mail train services typically run between the North and South, with key hubs at the Warrington rail terminal between Manchester and Liverpool, Low Fell in Gateshead, south of Newcastle, and the Princess Royal distribution centre near Wembley in London.

It is understood that the reconfigured rolling stock could be in operation for the peak period leading up to next Christmas.