starrymarkb
Established Member
I do think we should try and be greener. But it seems the green argument has been hijacked by all manner of groups trying to push their version of green.
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Carbon Footprint? Is this just another Tax?
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It's always going to be difficult when a complex problem, only fully understood by scientists, needs to be dealt with by politicians, which many are naturally distrustful of. Add into the big mix, some big business feels quite threatened by the prospect of tax and regulation, its no wonder there is a lot of disinformation out and resistance.
The basic science is quite simple. Though that doesn't stop some basic schoolboy errors being talked about of radio phone ins I listen to.
The earth has a greenhouse effect, because the atmosphere contains gases that absorb and emit radiation from the sun. Without it, the planet would be normally be -18 degrees or less.
Certain greenhouses gases (of which CO2 is one), change the composition of the atmosphere, and change the absorption rate of heat radiation from the sun. This is shown by this simple experiment here and is very basic science.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8394168.stm
We know burning fossil fuels and changes of land use for agriculture release GHG. And these can be measured in the atmosphere, and from history in tress and ice cores etc.
The debate really is how much warming this creates, at the upper end of the scenario is 6 degrees by 2100, which has very serious consequences and everyone should check out what that means for the planet. Before then, there is feedback effects, which are highly complex, such as ocean acidification, runaway climate change and release of locked up GHG in permafrost.
It's worth checking out the following links.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8376286.stm
http://www.realclimate.org/
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf
http://climate.nasa.gov/
http://royalsociety.org/Climate-Change/
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/
The basic science is quite simple. Though that doesn't stop some basic schoolboy errors being talked about of radio phone ins I listen to.
The earth has a greenhouse effect, because the atmosphere contains gases that absorb and emit radiation from the sun. Without it, the planet would be normally be -18 degrees or less.
Certain greenhouses gases (of which CO2 is one), change the composition of the atmosphere, and change the absorption rate of heat radiation from the sun. This is shown by this simple experiment here and is very basic science.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8394168.stm
We know burning fossil fuels and changes of land use for agriculture release GHG. And these can be measured in the atmosphere, and from history in tress and ice cores etc.
The debate really is how much warming this creates, at the upper end of the scenario is 6 degrees by 2100, which has very serious consequences and everyone should check out what that means for the planet. Before then, there is feedback effects, which are highly complex, such as ocean acidification, runaway climate change and release of locked up GHG in permafrost.
It's worth checking out the following links.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8376286.stm
http://www.realclimate.org/
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf
http://climate.nasa.gov/
http://royalsociety.org/Climate-Change/
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/
Stacey
Member
Its made up to gain more tax. Climate change and all the rest of it isn't affected by us. In time terms we've been here a dot of the time the planet has. The planet will do whatever and Carbon Footprint?? Well, its all piffle.
Snapper
Established Member
Do you always talk in such nonsensical cliches?
It's like a random cut and paste job using old copies of the Daily Mail.
The term has relevance and importance as it's used to describe the amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) emitted during an industrial or domestic process.
Obviously the climate change deniers don't like it because it can do exactly that - measure something.
Still, I love the idea that climate change science "stifle(s) our liberties, freedom and rights" - that's the right to screw up the planet for no good reason then.
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People would be a whole lot less cynical about so-called green taxes if the Government hadn't got itself/us a massive debt which needs to be repaid somehow. Is it any wonder that 'climate change' is just seen as an excuse to fill that black hole? People have access to history books and note that climate changes occured long before we started burning fossil fuels.....
It's also worth pointing out that whatever we do is a drop in the ocean - China and America are the big players in all this and until they agree to do anything about emissions, we're p***ing in the wind - and being fleeced for the privelege.
It's also worth pointing out that whatever we do is a drop in the ocean - China and America are the big players in all this and until they agree to do anything about emissions, we're p***ing in the wind - and being fleeced for the privelege.
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Snapper
Established Member
People will be cynical because they don't like being asked to do anything which puts them to any expense or inconvenience, or that means that they have to think about their lifestyles. They want someone to wave a magic wand and either for the problem to just go away - or barring that - just pretend that it doesn't exist.
The pragmatists amongst us think that's one hell of a gamble. We only have one planet and there's no plan B.
The science is convincing and the climate models are proving to be worryingly accurate.
No amount of trying to find excuses not to believe is going to change that.
As for green taxes 'filling a black hole' due to the recession. The time-line doesn't make sense. Global warming was an issue long before the recent recession.
People who "have access to history books and note that climate changes occured (sic) long before we started burning fossil fuels" are fooling themselves as they're failing to deal with or understand the science and the issues.
Here it is in a nutshell:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/quick/doubts.html
"Isn’t the climate always changing?
Yes. There is natural variability in Earth’s climate but the current climate change is very unusual as it is not exclusively part of a natural cycle.
Natural factors include volcanic eruptions, aerosols and phenomena such as El Niño and La Niña (which cause warming and cooling of the Pacific Ocean surface). Natural climate variations can lead to periods with little or no warming, both globally and regionally, and other periods with very rapid warming. However, there is an underlying trend of warming that is almost certainly caused by man’s activities.
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And now this from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2009/copenhagen/8386319.stm
The pragmatists amongst us think that's one hell of a gamble. We only have one planet and there's no plan B.
The science is convincing and the climate models are proving to be worryingly accurate.
No amount of trying to find excuses not to believe is going to change that.
As for green taxes 'filling a black hole' due to the recession. The time-line doesn't make sense. Global warming was an issue long before the recent recession.
People who "have access to history books and note that climate changes occured (sic) long before we started burning fossil fuels" are fooling themselves as they're failing to deal with or understand the science and the issues.
Here it is in a nutshell:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/quick/doubts.html
"Isn’t the climate always changing?
Yes. There is natural variability in Earth’s climate but the current climate change is very unusual as it is not exclusively part of a natural cycle.
Natural factors include volcanic eruptions, aerosols and phenomena such as El Niño and La Niña (which cause warming and cooling of the Pacific Ocean surface). Natural climate variations can lead to periods with little or no warming, both globally and regionally, and other periods with very rapid warming. However, there is an underlying trend of warming that is almost certainly caused by man’s activities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And now this from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2009/copenhagen/8386319.stm
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Indeed, plus the other disadvantages of our waste; what about the other issues resulting from some of the things we do?
- Depletion of fossil fuels
- Air pollution
- Health issues
- Noise
- Safety
- Social mobility
- Full landfill sites
- etc.
Snapper, I'll give you an example of a green tax that's being used to prop up the budget. Airport Passenger Duty rose, supposedly to encourage us to take less flights. Umm, sorry Gordon, those flights are operating anyway and people will still fly regardless of whether you increase APD or not! The reason? There's no alternative for those that wish to travel the world for whatever reason be it family, tourism (something that's vital to the world economy) or business. Not many High Speed railway lines between London and Dubai or Mumbai or Lahore or Beijing you see...
Once you get caught taking advantage of a phenomenon to extract money from people, you begin to encounter resistance - call it human nature!
Now, a legitimate green tax would be on business aviation - those people flying Gulfstreams, Global Expresses and Falcon 7Xs halfway around the world to top up their tans, right down to Cessna 510 Mustangs and Eclipses to the Cote D'Azur for the same purpose. Necessary flights? Probably not! Didn't see Gordon or Alastair hammering them with additional tax did we, and believe me, business aviation is a significant cause of CO2 emissions and that side of the industry is growing faster than you'd think possible....
Like I say, it's all well and good the Government increasing fuel duty (for example) to appeal to the green-minded electorate in an attempt to win a few marginal seats but some people have no viable alternative but to use their cars for work. Even me - you find me a mode of public transport that gets me into Birmingham at 0400 to get the railways moving and I'll use it. Oh, but you can't can you? Therefore, the so called green tax hasn't actually reduced my CO2 emissions but it has propped up HMRC's income just that bit more. How very convenient.....
On a personal level, I keep an open mind about whether man really is responsible for climate change, but I really do object to being fleeced for tax because the Government pretends to care about the planet.
Once you get caught taking advantage of a phenomenon to extract money from people, you begin to encounter resistance - call it human nature!
Now, a legitimate green tax would be on business aviation - those people flying Gulfstreams, Global Expresses and Falcon 7Xs halfway around the world to top up their tans, right down to Cessna 510 Mustangs and Eclipses to the Cote D'Azur for the same purpose. Necessary flights? Probably not! Didn't see Gordon or Alastair hammering them with additional tax did we, and believe me, business aviation is a significant cause of CO2 emissions and that side of the industry is growing faster than you'd think possible....
Like I say, it's all well and good the Government increasing fuel duty (for example) to appeal to the green-minded electorate in an attempt to win a few marginal seats but some people have no viable alternative but to use their cars for work. Even me - you find me a mode of public transport that gets me into Birmingham at 0400 to get the railways moving and I'll use it. Oh, but you can't can you? Therefore, the so called green tax hasn't actually reduced my CO2 emissions but it has propped up HMRC's income just that bit more. How very convenient.....
On a personal level, I keep an open mind about whether man really is responsible for climate change, but I really do object to being fleeced for tax because the Government pretends to care about the planet.
Snapper
Established Member
It's a consumption tax. You don't have to fly as you don't have to take a holiday abroad (or always fly to do it). And, like it or not - aviation is major contributor of greenhouse gases and also has a double-whammy because of where it delivers them.
It's also worth remembering that the aviation industry has always benefited from tax breaks in the past. So, APD is only redressing the balance somewhat.
The money collected can be used for green initiatives.
The tax has also been around a lot longer than the recession, so using the recession as an example doesn't really wash.
Get used to it - because consumption taxes are going to become a lot more common as the world changes.
Any argument about 'green taxes' and their usage is a different issue to the existence of MMGW. The deniers just seem to try and use it as an excuse to pretend global warming is all a con. It isn't.
But do the Government demonstrate that they use those green taxes for green initiatives? I'd welcome them ring-fencing APD takings to pay for HS2 for example - an improvement to public transport which would (according to The Times today) destroy the need for domestic flights to Edinburgh and Glasgow among others.
It's also worth pointing out that the recession is an irrelevance - we had a budget deficit long before the economy bubble finally burst, so you may wish to reconsider your timeline...
And, you say APD/Fuel duty are consumption taxes and we should get used to them. Umm, at what point do you stop? When the pips squeak? We have an issue with cost of living in the UK and this notion that we should pay more to satisfy the green lobby doesn't wash with ordinary Joe concerned with feeding his wife and children! Therein lies your problem - the moment you ask somebody (or rather tell them seeing as they have no choice in the matter) that their standard of living will fall because somebody has a theory which to them may be totally unproven, you'll encounter resistance. Telling people that they have to get used to it will also get their backs up yet more.
The simple fact is that as yet, we often have no alternative but to use our cars (for example) in order to live. Provide that alternative and then offer tax breaks to encourage people to use it by all means Mr Brown, but do not levy taxes and then pretend 'it's for the environment' when we know full well that you're balancing the Exchequer's books.
It's also worth pointing out that the recession is an irrelevance - we had a budget deficit long before the economy bubble finally burst, so you may wish to reconsider your timeline...
And, you say APD/Fuel duty are consumption taxes and we should get used to them. Umm, at what point do you stop? When the pips squeak? We have an issue with cost of living in the UK and this notion that we should pay more to satisfy the green lobby doesn't wash with ordinary Joe concerned with feeding his wife and children! Therein lies your problem - the moment you ask somebody (or rather tell them seeing as they have no choice in the matter) that their standard of living will fall because somebody has a theory which to them may be totally unproven, you'll encounter resistance. Telling people that they have to get used to it will also get their backs up yet more.
The simple fact is that as yet, we often have no alternative but to use our cars (for example) in order to live. Provide that alternative and then offer tax breaks to encourage people to use it by all means Mr Brown, but do not levy taxes and then pretend 'it's for the environment' when we know full well that you're balancing the Exchequer's books.
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Snapper
Established Member
An unpopular reality but a reality nonetheless. It's no use appealing to people's better natures or sense of collective responsibility in this day and age as people (especially in the UK) are more and more selfish.
That doesn't mean Governments shouldn't do their damnedest to explain, but to be perfectly honest I wouldn't trust Joe Public to be up to making a collective difficult decision. That's why we elect Governments as (generally) they're more up to the job.
The truth is that we will all have to get used to the fact that life on this planet is going to get harder for us. The world is changing and we can't hide in our ivory towers for ever - either socially, morally, economically or politically. For too many years we've managed to fool ourselves that our destiny is our own: It isn't - it's inextricably linked with our use of the planet's natural resources, our growing numbers and our growing expectations.
The hard truth (and an unpalatable one) is that future generations are going to have to settle for less. The longer we ignore this the harder it will be.
Ferret
Read the Stern Report. The costs now are nothing in comparison.
The costs when we are surrendering the Broads to the Sea will be a lot more. You can build higher and higher sea defences but soon even the salt in the water makes the land worthless.
Read the Stern Report. The costs now are nothing in comparison.
The costs when we are surrendering the Broads to the Sea will be a lot more. You can build higher and higher sea defences but soon even the salt in the water makes the land worthless.
And Joe Public don't trust a Government that has repeatedly proven itself to be dishonest to set out the facts on climate change.
Now, I'm quite keen on aircraft (as you've probably gathered!) but yet something troubles me with something I've read in The Times today. The Government is apparently keen to back a 3rd runway at Heathrow. How the hell is that consistent with their green agenda?! One could be forgiven for concluding that the Government are only green when it suits...!
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Bluenoxid, are you suggesting we pay out now and somehow we'll avert catastrophe?
Read my post from earlier. The one where I point out the harsh reality that we're p***ing in the wind until China and America do something about their emissions! Anyone holding their breath? Didn't think so...
Ah you have to read the small print there old chap. Aviation can grow IF 90% of the rest of the economy completely decarbonises - IE Everything has to run on Nuclear/renewable, including all surface transport. The other 10% would be agriculture plus the odd thing than cannot decarbonise like steam railways. On top of that, aviation can only grow at 60% by 2050, not 200%. And where possible (IE under 400 miles) use of high speed rail would be made.
devon_metro
Established Member
The biggest problem with climate change is the fact that we are permanently barked at to cut our "footprint" however Governments are continually back peddling. The commitment to build a third runway is completely contradictory to any climate change targets the government has set. The UK isn't likely to meet it's Kyoto targets, let alone any new Copenhagen ones. If the government had the will then we would ignore the moronic NIMBYs and get some "renewable" energy going, or expand Nuclear whilst investing in Hydrogen technology and seriously invest in public transport. The expected discovery of billions of barrels of oil & gas in the Falklands will be another excuse to pass the problem of energy insecurity onto another future generation.
That's before we even consider Brazil, Russia, India and China, amongst other rapidly developing nations, who will very easily reverse any negligible improvements to the climate we have made.
Many people argue we've passed the tipping point, so what's the point!
That's before we even consider Brazil, Russia, India and China, amongst other rapidly developing nations, who will very easily reverse any negligible improvements to the climate we have made.
Many people argue we've passed the tipping point, so what's the point!
Ah yes, sorry Mr Emirates and Mr Etihad and Mr Cathay, I know we've built this new runway but you can't have those extra Heathrow slots to make use of it after all. You see, the rest of the economy has only decarbonised by 59% so we can't have growth in aviation!
Meanwhile, back in the real world........
Dennis
Established Member
I wonder how many of the fifteen thousand delegates at Copenhagen flew there...
You must have missed this in the BBC Magazine, Dennis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8396143.stm
Dennis
Established Member
Most of them then!
Also on BBC is this little gem about how Thames Water are helping the environment; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8401266.stm
Also on BBC is this little gem about how Thames Water are helping the environment; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8401266.stm
Yes. It's not just stopping the rise of world temperatures. There is peak oil, air pollution, resource depletion, water supply limitations, etc.
Yes, the Chinese and Americans are failing to do so. The Americans have crippled their exports economy. The Chinese are destroying their nation and desperately grabbing and moving some of the biggest killers (chemicals) to Africa.
Waiting until the Americans blink is a waste of time. Let them sit in their own ****. If you don't like it, rip up your passport and go over there. But don't bother coming back when Europe jumps forward.
Oh, and there's another option. Double military spending. In 30 - 50 years we could be having to blockade the Mediteranean, fighting many wars to get resources and trying to solve a major immigration problem.
A little bit of pain here is nothing compared to the pain that doing nothing will provide.
Just look at the state of their economy. The low consumption tax on fuel meant that the price rises in America crippled their economy. They can't export their cars anywhere because they don't meet anyone elses emissions requirements.
Yes, their pollution will affect the Earth but the pain we take now will be nothing compared to the pain the Americans will feel when some of the major effects of climate change hit it.
Moodster020
Member
- Joined
- 18 Dec 2008
- Messages
- 137
http://www.cfact.tv/2009/12/07/lord...-at-the-2nd-international-climate-conference/
In particular- 6mins in
Biggest scientific fraud of our time.
In particular- 6mins in
Biggest scientific fraud of our time.
The Climate Change jobbie at East Anglia is a small part of the climate change research in the UK. Of course, there was no funding or politics behind that hack obviously.
When you see some of the beligerent lies that are pedalled out by some of these nutters, you'd freak. Of course, it's all great and good using two years of data to prove sea ice recovery and just measuring temperatures in the Great Barrier Reef (with El Nino and La Nina).
When you see some of the beligerent lies that are pedalled out by some of these nutters, you'd freak. Of course, it's all great and good using two years of data to prove sea ice recovery and just measuring temperatures in the Great Barrier Reef (with El Nino and La Nina).
TrainBrain185
Member
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-age-starts-here.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo
One minute its Global Warming, the next minute, a mini ice age. What will be next?
One minute its Global Warming, the next minute, a mini ice age. What will be next?
90019
Established Member
We're still in an ice age, so I don't see how we can have a second mini one on top of that :?
Broken Viking
On Moderation
It's simply another case of the Government sticking their heads up the European Parlaments arse again, and giving us - Joe Public - Yet another buzzword to confuse us, wear us down, and bring us to the point where we all start throwing it around at the breakfast table... :roll::mad:
I'm fortunate in a way, myself. My "Carbon footprint" is very small - Only a size 8 in fact - And consequently I don't have any of these "Eco do-gooders" giving me dirty looks. That, and I recycle where I can anyway. 8)
If they ever start to measure people's "Methane Clouds" on the other hand, I'm probabally going to find myself financially going right up the spout...Either that, or I'll suddenly become Europe's biggest supplier of "natural" gas!
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