My idea for a new Railcard tier system

[algytaylor]

Was writing this as a reply to the 'free public transport' thread, but it probably deserves it's own as it's widely off topic:

There's a Young Person's (16-30) railcard, Two Together railcard, Family railcard, Senior railcard, .. would it just make sense to combine all these in to maybe 2 or 3 railcard options, a bit like the DB BahnCard?

So, in my head, something like ...
Railcard 25 - gives you 25% off fares, similar to existing ones
Railcard 50 - half price travel on "tier 2" routes, 25% off "tier 1" routes
Railcard 100 - free rail travel on "tier 2" routes, 25% off "tier 1" routes, free 'plusbus' / local public transport
Railcard 100+ - free rail travel for any operator, free plusbus / local public transport.

Not sure quite how to term "tier 1" and "tier 2". I don't know exactly where you'd draw the line - the intention would be to go along the lines of free day-to-day use, discounted leisure/heavy use. So ECML/WCML would usually be "tier 1" (unless the station is only served by those trains), most local/region trains would be "tier 2". Everything priced appropriately.

Anyway, is that a practical idea in Britain?

 

[higthomas]

Doable, but you'd be looking at an awful lot of money for the 100+; £20,000+++

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tier thing is confusing. I'd drop it in favour of something like a free or heavily discounted national Railcard with any annual season ticket costing over a certain amount, a bit like the Gold Card.

 

[bspahh]

I think £20k would be a bit much. A Bahn 100 card in Germany costs £3677.

I would prefer rail rover tickets, perhaps with "30 days in 365" rates, rather than just "3 days in 7", and "8 days in 14". Restricting it to off peak travel would save losing revenue from business travellers in the peak hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think £20k would be a bit much. A Bahn 100 card in Germany costs £3677.

You couldn't undercut the present season ticket rates, though, as that would cause a huge drop in income. So it'd need to be the same price as the highest priced commonly-issued annual season ticket, which probably is somewhere around 20 grand.

Germany has much, much less long-distance commuting than the UK does, so the issue doesn't really arise there - commuters there are mostly using Verbundkarten costing much less than four grand.

 

[bspahh]

You couldn't undercut the present season ticket rates, though, as that would cause a huge drop in income. So it'd need to be the same price as the highest priced commonly-issued annual season ticket, which probably is somewhere around 20 grand.

You can already get a 14 day standard class all line rover for £772. Buy 26 of those and its £20072.

Restricting the use of a 30 in 365 day rover to off peak trains would save most of the revenue from people that buy season tickets at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can already get a 14 day standard class all line rover for £772. Buy 26 of those and its £20072.

Portillo pointed this out, and people started doing it, and as a result it gained evening peak restrictions. A restricted "BahnCard 100" would not gain many customers at twenty grand a pop.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Portillo pointed this out, and people started doing it, and as a result it gained evening peak restrictions.

I think you mean morning peak restrictions rather than evening ALRs are unrestricted during the evening peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you mean morning peak restrictions rather than evening ALRs are unrestricted during the evening peak.

Sorry, correct, I meant morning.

 

[jon0844]

Why not have a more reasonably priced 100% discount ticket (and 50%) and restrict discounts on morning peak or evening peak, or just selected tickets, but allow an excess to be paid to upgrade.

That would still make it very cheap to travel at peak times and justify buying a card if you travel regularly.

ALRs could continue for those without railcards but not obtainable with one. Otherwise you'd always get an ALR and while that might make sense, unless on a smartcard with photo ID and checks all the time, it would never be allowed for the risk of sharing.

I think the railway would judge the gains from such a card over the few people who pay £20k for a season, which must be small bar maybe some first class season holders that aren't applicable anyway.

 

[bspahh]

Portillo pointed this out, and people started doing it, and as a result it gained evening peak restrictions. A restricted "BahnCard 100" would not gain many customers at twenty grand a pop.

I agree. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr569241c35ce74100fb0de1b9798124.aspx mentions restrictions before 10am from a few stations.

In the Greater Anglia region, there are daily and 3 days in 7 day rover tickets with peak restrictions for £18.50 and £38. There are also 1 week, 1 month and 1 year rover tickets with no peak restrictions.

If you scale the price of the 7 day all line rover based on the Greater Anglia ones, you would end up with a 1 year all line rover being £20400.

The £38 3 in 7 day rover with peak restrictions is 32% of the price of the £119.20 7 day unrestricted one. A similar discount for an all line rover would be £6390, which I think would be more reasonable.

 

[The Ham]

Was writing this as a reply to the 'free public transport' thread, but it probably deserves it's own as it's widely off topic:

There's a Young Person's (16-30) railcard, Two Together railcard, Family railcard, Senior railcard, .. would it just make sense to combine all these in to maybe 2 or 3 railcard options, a bit like the DB BahnCard?

So, in my head, something like ...
Railcard 25 - gives you 25% off fares, similar to existing ones
Railcard 50 - half price travel on "tier 2" routes, 25% off "tier 1" routes
Railcard 100 - free rail travel on "tier 2" routes, 25% off "tier 1" routes, free 'plusbus' / local public transport
Railcard 100+ - free rail travel for any operator, free plusbus / local public transport.

Not sure quite how to term "tier 1" and "tier 2". I don't know exactly where you'd draw the line - the intention would be to go along the lines of free day-to-day use, discounted leisure/heavy use. So ECML/WCML would usually be "tier 1" (unless the station is only served by those trains), most local/region trains would be "tier 2". Everything priced appropriately.

Anyway, is that a practical idea in Britain?

If I was defining the system is have it that Tier 1 was an any time ticket and that included any bus travel before 09:30.

It would mean that for the Railcard 50 you'd want to change the tier 1 discount.

If that was the case, and you could get a 25% discount on your season ticket, even at £5,000 I think that there would be a lot of people who would consider it. There would certainly be some companies who would provide (at least to certain staff) them so as to save money. Even if the costs weren't fully covered, there would be savings like:
- a lot of paperwork savings in claiming expenses
- less staff cars/staff car parking required as more people use rail to get around
- better staff retention (due to them being able to use it for their own purposes and getting a 25% discount on their season ticket for getting to work)

For anything where there's restrictions, have it as a contactless card which you used to "pay" for your free train tickets or to give you the discount before paying the outstanding balance (loads a valid ticket to your card/phone) which you can then use to touch in/out on your journey.

Yes, the upfront costs for the upper level cards would be fairly high, however there would be a lot of people who would still take up the cards at all levels.

 

[JonathanH]

Allowing a ticket that could be used for 'expense' as well as personal work travel (ie commuting) would be a tax nightmare. Sounds like the sort of thing that would be seen as a 'benefit in kind' by HMRC.

As I understand it, if 'expense' travel starts to become too routine in nature (ie multiple times a week over the same route) HMRC start to take an interest and a tax charge becomes payable.

 

[The Ham]

Allowing a ticket that could be used for 'expense' as well as personal work travel (ie commuting) would be a tax nightmare. Sounds like the sort of thing that would be seen as a 'benefit in kind' by HMRC.


As I understand it, if 'expense' travel starts to become too routine in nature (ie multiple times a week over the same route) HMRC start to take an interest and a tax charge becomes payable.

Which is why most companies/staff would probably want the Railcard 100 (so anytime travel wasn't included) as that wouldn't attract the interest of HMRC as it's unlikely to be able to be used for commuting.


However, I'd rather pay the tax on £20,000 than have to spend £5,000 on rail travel. However, it could be that HMRC could create a system where you pay the tax on the season ticket that you would have based on personal and business address plus a percentage for lesure usage. Especially if it resulted in less car usage.

 

[Polarbear]

However, I'd rather pay the tax on £20,000 than have to spend £5,000 on rail travel. However, it could be that HMRC could create a system where you pay the tax on the season ticket that you would have based on personal and business address plus a percentage for lesure usage. Especially if it resulted in less car usage.

It wouldn’t be down to HMRC to create a revised system as regards tax relief on home to office travel. It would require a change in the legislature.

Our lot enforce the rules, but we don’t make them.