CrossCountry lack of train crew

[dk1]

Regardless of what is currently happening their ought to be enough staff on a rosta to cover all duties during normal working, then overtime can be used, paid at a premium rate, to cover needs. The Sunday issue needs to be sorted, even if done gradually with new starters.

Without raking all this up again for the umpteenth time, there are traincrew agreements between company & unions & these have to be adhered to. You do not have drivers or guards taken on on differing contracts. One for all & all that.

 

[Matt_pool]

Lack of train crew? That's every Sunday with Northern!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It's crazy that an operator who runs to a lot of the UK, with some of the longest direct routes in the country, is now suffering from train crew shortages.

They can't afford to be doing it - especially if a lot of their potentially reduced services won't be double Voyagers.

GWR are improving and just as that's happening, a new TOC ends up with train crew shortages. Sorry but it's not on - that and a football match against Leeds United will not help!

 

[43055]

They can't afford to be doing it - especially if a lot of their potentially reduced services won't be double Voyagers.

It possibly depends on the level of service. When the strikes were on this time last year the majority of services on the North East/South West route were double sets but there was 2/3 hour gaps in the service.

 

[LowLevel]

Without raking all this up again for the umpteenth time, there are traincrew agreements between company & unions & these have to be adhered to. You do not have drivers or guards taken on on differing contracts. One for all & all that.

It depends where you work. Without going into too much detail and without comment on the situation there are 2 drivers contracts and at least 5 guards contracts where I work. Generally as a result of the TOC imposing change as suggested above. It can be messy.

 

[dk1]

It depends where you work. Without going into too much detail and without comment on the situation there are 2 drivers contracts and at least 5 guards contracts where I work. Generally as a result of the TOC imposing change as suggested above. It can be messy.

It can happen where differing contracts have to be recognised if franchises are merged but not with new entrants. Obviously all traincrew have the right to retain all their previous conditions until negotiated otherwise. We still have the pre-2004 contracts for the three different companies on GA as would be expected as harmonisation is not acceptable to each ex-franchise group.

 

[Meerkat]

A situation where an employer is not able to employ new people on more sensible terms is just ridiculous.
Sundays need to be included, this is the modern world.

 

[LowLevel]

It can happen where differing contracts have to be recognised if franchises are merged but not with new entrants. Obviously all traincrew have the right to retain all their previous conditions until negotiated otherwise. We still have the pre-2004 contracts for the three different companies on GA as would be expected as harmonisation is not acceptable to each ex-franchise group.

Again, I must politely beg to disagree regarding 'not with new entrants'. Some owning groups operate differently to others.

 

[Phlip]

If the cause really is the viruses that are currently going round then I sympathise, but there is no reporting of an epidemic that I have seen (even though most of my family and lots of our friends have been affected.)
Maybe a public transport operator should have enough headroom in its staff numbers to be able to run the advertised service even with a level of sickness absence? That way it might have earned the goodwill so that people would work their rest days in an emergency, or even be able to postpone some refresher or new stock familiarisation training...

Rhinoviruses (colds) are not monitored in any more than a superficial way by Public Health England so an epidemic would not be reported. They're a minor (if unpleasant), self-limiting disease so it's considered (quite rightly) unnecessary and public health resources are used where they're needed instead. Most Rhinoviruses go undiagnosed - people self manage at home and if they do access the health services they'll most likely be told to go home, rest and take paracetamol and a decongestant. Only if a person is admitted to hospital is swab likely to be sent to the lab, and that's to see if the patient has Influenza (and whether they need to be treated in isolation). But a laboratory test for respiratory viruses costs somewhere between £30-£70 depending on the exact type of test (some don't pick up Rhinoviruses and the ones that do are more expensive) so you'd soon bankrupt the NHS is that was done for every cold.

However, anecdotal evidence from my laboratory would indicate that there's a s**t load of Rhinovirus out there. Indeed, I've had it, and we've had severe staffing pressures because of it.

 

[dk1]

A situation where an employer is not able to employ new people on more sensible terms is just ridiculous.
Sundays need to be included, this is the modern world.

Not sure what the modern world has to do with anything. Major shops & supermarkets are still only open for six hours.

 

[Meerkat]

Major shops & supermarkets are still only open for six hours.

But they are open

Sunday is a marketing chance for the railways. Get newbies taking a day out and thinking “this ain’t so bad, it’s better than sitting in a traffic jam”

 

[DDB]

Not sure what the modern world has to do with anything. Major shops & supermarkets are still only open for six hours.

But that is not their choice or lack of demand but due to legislation.

 

[Tomnick]

It can happen where differing contracts have to be recognised if franchises are merged but not with new entrants. Obviously all traincrew have the right to retain all their previous conditions until negotiated otherwise. We still have the pre-2004 contracts for the three different companies on GA as would be expected as harmonisation is not acceptable to each ex-franchise group.

Again, I must politely beg to disagree regarding 'not with new entrants'. Some owning groups operate differently to others.

I can confirm that LowLevel is indeed onto something, although I’d suggest that it’s maybe not down to the owning group as much as it’s down to the way that the union operates locally...

 

[Llanigraham]

A situation where an employer is not able to employ new people on more sensible terms is just ridiculous.
Sundays need to be included, this is the modern world.

This keeps being said by several members but no-one has yet come up with a practical, legal, or economic method of applying it across ALL the train operators AND across all the relevant Network Rail employees that will also be affected. Answer that and perhaps we might take some notice.

 

[dk1]

But that is not their choice or lack of demand but due to legislation.

Don't suppose they have much say in it either if it did change poor buggers. Unbelievably I was told by an employee at my main Sainsbury's that no staff are permitted to park in their car park from today until a Christmas Eve & have to make other arrangements to get to work Flipping heck. If they did that to traincrew we'd have cancellations right left & centre. A lot to be said for a good union & proper respect for your staff.

 

[bramling]

But they are open

Sunday is a marketing chance for the railways. Get newbies taking a day out and thinking “this ain’t so bad, it’s better than sitting in a traffic jam”

Can’t help but smile at that. Many train journeys are pretty awful at weekends nowadays, far worse than during the day on weekdays. I’d suggest many would be more likely to take their day out and think “that was a disaster never again I’ll go back to the car next time”.

 

[diffident]

It seems this debate comes round year-after-year on these forums, and not without good reason either.

I have two thoughts on this. The first is that, when going to work in an industry that operates for essentially 364 days a year, and almost around the clock, it should be an absolute expectation that you will be asked to work what would otherwise be seen as anti-social shifts. Similarly, and as I've pointed out, with only one day off a year fixed and guaranteed, there should be no expectation of what days on or off one could be rostered in any given week. As has been pointed out time and time again, many other industries across the country have thousands and thousands of staff who don't get a choice, let alone any pay premiums.

Which brings me on to my second point. The lead up to Christmas, and then through the holiday to New Year's are always going to be extremely busy time. Unless I've missed an announcement somewhere, the last I checked, CrossCountry were a Train Operating Company, in the sphere of a protected public transport franchise. The public want to travel in their droves over Christmas, and many will use the train. What astonishes me, is how the management at TOC's like XC are not identifying this fact and preparing Christmas and New Year rosters in May.

Any staff that want additional time off over and above the guaranteed one day, should have to apply for annual leave, like most others do when they want time off from work.

 

[dk1]

It seems this debate comes round year-after-year on these forums, and not without good reason either.

I have two thoughts on this. The first is that, when going to work in an industry that operates for essentially 364 days a year, and almost around the clock, it should be an absolute expectation that you will be asked to work what would otherwise be seen as anti-social shifts. Similarly, and as I've pointed out, with only one day off a year fixed and guaranteed, there should be no expectation of what days on or off one could be rostered in any given week. As has been pointed out time and time again, many other industries across the country have thousands and thousands of staff who don't get a choice, let alone any pay premiums.

Which brings me on to my second point. The lead up to Christmas, and then through the holiday to New Year's are always going to be extremely busy time. Unless I've missed an announcement somewhere, the last I checked, CrossCountry were a Train Operating Company, in the sphere of a protected public transport franchise. The public want to travel in their droves over Christmas, and many will use the train. What astonishes me, is how the management at TOC's like XC are not identifying this fact and preparing Christmas and New Year rosters in May.

Any staff that want additional time off over and above the guaranteed one day, should have to apply for annual leave, like most others do when they want time off from work.

Congratulations on being the first to mention Christmas working

Christmas & Boxing Day are contracted days off for me. I'm not applying, using annual leave or anything other than taking them off. Volunteers are already used to come in on the night of the 26th to prepare for the 27th but need to be bribed with double/triple time in addition to extra leave. There are always a few that go for it but I wouldn't say anything like enough to run any sort of sparse service. It was attempted to go round the houses in getting it in through this years flawed harmonisation deal which failed miserably.

 

[45107]

and as I've pointed out, with only one day off a year fixed and guaranteed, there should be no expectation of what days on or off one could be rostered in any given week. As has been pointed out time and time again, many other industries across the country have thousands and thousands of staff who don't get a choice, let alone any pay premiums.

...

Any staff that want additional time off over and above the guaranteed one day, should have to apply for annual leave, like most others do when they want time off from work.

Not sure I understand the 1st bit I have quoted above, but are you suggesting that staff should be rostered any day the company sees fit without knowing in advance when they will get a day off (rest day)

And if I want a day off, I need to apply for annual leave in case I may be required to work on that day ?

The rail unions fight for members working terms & conditions. Other industry staff should be doing their best to improve their conditions instead of trying to drag rail staff down.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It seems this debate comes round year-after-year on these forums, and not without good reason either.

I have two thoughts on this. The first is that, when going to work in an industry that operates for essentially 364 days a year, and almost around the clock, it should be an absolute expectation that you will be asked to work what would otherwise be seen as anti-social shifts. Similarly, and as I've pointed out, with only one day off a year fixed and guaranteed, there should be no expectation of what days on or off one could be rostered in any given week. As has been pointed out time and time again, many other industries across the country have thousands and thousands of staff who don't get a choice, let alone any pay premiums.

Which brings me on to my second point. The lead up to Christmas, and then through the holiday to New Year's are always going to be extremely busy time. Unless I've missed an announcement somewhere, the last I checked, CrossCountry were a Train Operating Company, in the sphere of a protected public transport franchise. The public want to travel in their droves over Christmas, and many will use the train. What astonishes me, is how the management at TOC's like XC are not identifying this fact and preparing Christmas and New Year rosters in May.

Any staff that want additional time off over and above the guaranteed one day, should have to apply for annual leave, like most others do when they want time off from work.

Congratulations on being the first to mention Christmas working

Christmas & Boxing Day are contracted days off for me. I'm not applying, using annual leave or anything other than taking them off. Volunteers are already used to come in on the night of the 26th to prepare for the 27th but need to be bribed with double/triple time in addition to extra leave. There are always a few that go for it but I wouldn't say anything like enough to run any sort of sparse service. It was attempted to go round the houses in getting it in through this years flawed harmonisation deal which failed miserably.

Not everyone has those days contracted off - it depends on the Ts and Cs at each TOC. Mine say I might have to work if required, for example. They are only guaranteed off because the TOC chooses not to run any trains.

The issue of Sunday working and staff being flexible is again open to negotiation. I, and indeed many others, would have no problem in the company putting forward proposals to change our ts and cs and contracts to include Sunday working. We are not stubbornly refusing to change anything. But the fact remains that my contract and ts and cs say that Sundays are outside my working week. The various companies in their various forms since privatisation have never made any proposals or had any discussions about changing them - until recently, and that is still ongoing, so I don't know what the outcome will be. But in nearly all cases the TOCs choose not to put Sundays inside as it costs too much money.

So it's not all down to luddite train crew refusing to change. The TOCs need to want to change things and make proposals to be considered and voted on. Most TOCs don't bother though .

 

[45107]

Not everyone has those days contracted off - it depends on the Ts and Cs at each TOC. Mine say I might have to work if required, for example. They are only guaranteed off because the TOC chooses not to run any trains.

The issue of Sunday working and staff being flexible is again open to negotiation. I, and indeed many others, would have no problem in the company putting forward proposals to change our ts and cs and contracts to include Sunday working. We are not stubbornly refusing to change anything. But the fact remains that my contract and ts and cs say that Sundays are outside my working week. The various companies in their various forms since privatisation have never made any proposals or had any discussions about changing them - until recently, and that is still ongoing, so I don't know what the outcome will be. But in nearly all cases the TOCs choose not to put Sundays inside as it costs too much money.

So it's not all down to luddite train crew refusing to change. The TOCs need to want to change things and make proposals to be considered and voted on. Most TOCs don't bother though .

Agree with this.
Most train crew I know would like Sunday’s included as it gives them certainty over when they are working. With Sunday being voluntary/overtime there are some who will ‘wait to see if I get a Sunday’ before planning things.

Any change to Sunday working agreements would lead to increase in staffing and costs. Maybe that it a reason for no progress.

 

[diffident]

Not sure I understand the 1st bit I have quoted above, but are you suggesting that staff should be rostered any day the company sees fit without knowing in advance when they will get a day off (rest day)

And if I want a day off, I need to apply for annual leave in case I may be required to work on that day ?

The rail unions fight for members working terms & conditions. Other industry staff should be doing their best to improve their conditions instead of trying to drag rail staff down.

That's always the default rail industry argument - It's rail staff's workers rights and union members terms & conditions.

Apply rail terms and conditions in other industries and watch what happens. Pubs/Restaurants closed, shops charging a fiver for a loaf of bread because the bloke working late must be paid time and a half, etc etc.

To steer this back towards the original topic, and incorporating the above, the whole industry when privatised, should have taken a total commercial approach. That didn't happen and parts of the industry still operate in an nationalised-era style - and yes, I'm referring to the unions.

 

[45107]

That's always the default rail industry argument - It's rail staff's workers rights and union members terms & conditions.

Apply rail terms and conditions in other industries and watch what happens. Pubs/Restaurants closed, shops charging a fiver for a loaf of bread because the bloke working late must be paid time and a half, etc etc.

To steer this back towards the original topic, and incorporating the above, the whole industry when privatised, should have taken a total commercial approach. That didn't happen and parts of the industry still operate in an nationalised-era style - and yes, I'm referring to the unions.

Since privatisation, generally overtime rates have been cut although I admit basic pay has risen to compensate.
If staffing & pay levels are correct, and there is no requirement for overtime unless things go wrong. (And why shouldn’t staff be compensated for working extra. The company won’t suddenly stop charging for goods/services to save overtime costs).

You are correct that the industry should have collectively tackled the problem. They haven’t. Unions are using ‘the market’ to get their members the best deal.

 

[route:oxford]

Not sure what the modern world has to do with anything. Major shops & supermarkets are still only open for six hours.

Depends where you are in the UK. Scottish shops and supermarkets can open 24 hours on a Sunday (except Christmas Day).

 

[DanDaDriver]

That's always the default rail industry argument - It's rail staff's workers rights and union members terms & conditions.

Apply rail terms and conditions in other industries and watch what happens. Pubs/Restaurants closed, shops charging a fiver for a loaf of bread because the bloke working late must be paid time and a half, etc etc.

The bloke working late should be paid time and a half. Then you wouldn’t be subsidising supermarkets wage bills through your tax contributions which go to paying benefits to people in full time work on exploitative wages.

What has the country come to when we’re saying things like that like it’s a bad thing.

Anyway, back on topic, I’m sure you’d get enough volunteers to work Christmas Day / Boxing Day, especially for double time. The railway is pretty diverse nowadays and there’s enough people who don’t celebrate Christmas as well as a large number of divorced middle aged men who’d take the opportunity to earn some extra.

 

[dk1]

The bloke working late should be paid time and a half. Then you wouldn’t be subsidising supermarkets wage bills through your tax contributions which go to paying benefits to people in full time work on exploitative wages.

What has the country come to when we’re saying things like that like it’s a bad thing.

Anyway, back on topic, I’m sure you’d get enough volunteers to work Christmas Day / Boxing Day, especially for double time. The railway is pretty diverse nowadays and there’s enough people who don’t celebrate Christmas as well as a large number of divorced middle aged men who’d take the opportunity to earn some extra.

Drivers already get offered up to triple time & a days leave to work Boxing Day night shift at my depot. Over the years it has sometimes struggled to get a full compliment to volunteer.

 

[bramling]

It seems this debate comes round year-after-year on these forums, and not without good reason either.

I have two thoughts on this. The first is that, when going to work in an industry that operates for essentially 364 days a year, and almost around the clock, it should be an absolute expectation that you will be asked to work what would otherwise be seen as anti-social shifts. Similarly, and as I've pointed out, with only one day off a year fixed and guaranteed, there should be no expectation of what days on or off one could be rostered in any given week. As has been pointed out time and time again, many other industries across the country have thousands and thousands of staff who don't get a choice, let alone any pay premiums.

Which brings me on to my second point. The lead up to Christmas, and then through the holiday to New Year's are always going to be extremely busy time. Unless I've missed an announcement somewhere, the last I checked, CrossCountry were a Train Operating Company, in the sphere of a protected public transport franchise. The public want to travel in their droves over Christmas, and many will use the train. What astonishes me, is how the management at TOC's like XC are not identifying this fact and preparing Christmas and New Year rosters in May.

Any staff that want additional time off over and above the guaranteed one day, should have to apply for annual leave, like most others do when they want time off from work.

Unfortunately it’s the same old “I want access to everything that I would normally have, but *I* personally don’t want to work”.

It’s simply a fact of life that most people don’t want to work at “anti-social” times - this includes weekends, half term weeks, Easter, summer holidays, Christmas, bank holidays, major sporting fixtures, sustained periods of fine weather, and anything I’ve missed off the list. Employers may be able to get round this with incentives and attendance management, but for people on good money this becomes increasingly blunt an instrument.

Charge a hefty premium to travel at Christmas and give it to the staff as a worthwhile bonus payment? Might help to suppress overcrowding too. Bet it wouldn’t be popular though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think there is a balance to be found between the workers' and the companies' rights. At the moment I think the way the industry has been privatised, with many aspects of the nationalised structure remaining and yet the competition for staff between different TOCs (and even FOCs), has resulted in the balance shifting too far towards the workers. And I say that as someone not opposed to unionisation: it protects against the balance shifting too far towards the company.

But the rail unions have far more power than other unions because they are in a totally unique position. The industry will always be propped up through industrial disputes by the Government so there is no risk of industrial action itself killing the industry as it might in a free-market company. And yet there is competition between TOCs so staff will naturally migrate towards the company with the best terms, pay etc. And also they are able to have a significant effect with industrial action, through a relatively speaking small number of workers.

I think some fundamental changes need to be made, in order to bring the rail industry's staff conditions and industrial relations into the 21st Century. The suggestion that all staff on the same grade must have exactly the same conditions and pay is one area that I find absolutely ludicrous, and for one I would not be opposed to outlawing striking over such issues. People say "how can I be expected to work Sundays when it's not in my contract", and yet their representatives, the unions, insist that new staff cannot have a different contract which includes Sundays!

Caught in this crossfire are the fare-paying passengers. I feel quite fortunate that I don't rely too much on TOCs that are strike afflicted. I don't think either side, the TOC or the workers, really consider the greater damage they are causing in having petty disputes and issues like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, anecdotal evidence from my laboratory would indicate that there's a s**t load of Rhinovirus out there. Indeed, I've had it, and we've had severe staffing pressures because of it.

Is there ever *not* a "cold going round" at Christmas?

 

[AndrewE]

Is there ever *not* a "cold going round" at Christmas?

True, but this year's (or the one that some of us have had, or still got) does seem unusually nasty and long-lasting, which is why I would have expected to have seen something about it in the national press.