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Arriva Rail North DOO

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muz379

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If the RMT did gain recognition for the new grade, with a different job description, what would be the point of any action?
The comment I said that in response to was suggesting we recruit the replacement for the guard grade now but get them to do doors in the interim period .

My point was that this new grade could gain recognition and still carry out disruptive strike action in that interim period .
 
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Robertj21a

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As we're close to 300 pages - and 9,000 postings - can I just ask a simple question.

Are we any further forward than when all this started ???

:rolleyes: :E
 

LowLevel

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As we're close to 300 pages - and 9,000 postings - can I just ask a simple question.

Are we any further forward than when all this started ???

:rolleyes: :E

Unfortunately not. It is a fact that those of us present have opinions. They're rather like the rock and the hard place and of course have no real impact on ongoing events. It'll go round and round until the puppet masters have finished pulling their strings.
 

Dr Hoo

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As we're close to 300 pages - and 9,000 postings - can I just ask a simple question.

Are we any further forward than when all this started ???

:rolleyes: :E
Well, the drip of attrition of passenger numbers continues.
A couple of Junior Doctors that I know in West Yorkshire, who had felt that adding a car loan to their tens of thousands of pounds of student loan debt would be unsustainable, have finally cracked.
Faced with the need to cover 12-hour shifts on Saturdays at various hospital locations it has obviously been impossible to rely on trains recently.
So another car on the road and another rail commuter lost all week.
A recently qualified Junior Doctor’s pay is no more than a typical guard’s and at 0200 on a Sunday morning not only are some of the customers even worse for wear than they might have been on the last train at 2300 the previous evening there is no opportunity to secure oneself in a place of safety.
Depending how their new acquisition goes and the dispute continues they may well be in the market for a second car.
The fallout from this dispute is really awful.
 

Paceman

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Well, the drip of attrition of passenger numbers continues.
A couple of Junior Doctors that I know in West Yorkshire, who had felt that adding a car loan to their tens of thousands of pounds of student loan debt would be unsustainable, have finally cracked.
Faced with the need to cover 12-hour shifts on Saturdays at various hospital locations it has obviously been impossible to rely on trains recently.
So another car on the road and another rail commuter lost all week.
A recently qualified Junior Doctor’s pay is no more than a typical guard’s and at 0200 on a Sunday morning not only are some of the customers even worse for wear than they might have been on the last train at 2300 the previous evening there is no opportunity to secure oneself in a place of safety.
Depending how their new acquisition goes and the dispute continues they may well be in the market for a second car.
The fallout from this dispute is really awful.
This sounds like a bit of a yarn. To emphasise this, a newly qualified junior doctor is on a minimum of £30k basic, which guard at ARN gets that?!
 

DaveB10780

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I agree. This has the potential to be a disaster for the railway.
And hopefully a massive disaster for the strikers who are the people causing the pain all in the name of concern for the passengers welfare. Well that may sort itself out when there are no passengers. On the other hand lets get a new role created as soon as possible and ease the strikers out.
 

yorksrob

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And hopefully a massive disaster for the strikers who are the people causing the pain all in the name of concern for the passengers welfare. Well that may sort itself out when there are no passengers. On the other hand lets get a new role created as soon as possible and ease the strikers out.

What use is that to us, as rail users, when to break the strike we have to destroy the very railway we rely on ?

All sides (including central Government) need to come together in this dispute and reach whatever agreement it takes to end the strike and get the trains running again.
 

muz379

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A recently qualified Junior Doctor’s pay is no more than a typical guard’s and at 0200 on a Sunday morning not only are some of the customers even worse for wear than they might have been on the last train at 2300 the previous evening there is no opportunity to secure oneself in a place of safety.
Im not saying that working in A&E on a saturday night / Sunday morning is a brilliant working environment . But whilst there is no place of safety there is security staff on hand in the hospital and last time I was in A&E on a Saturday night (non alcohol related) there was also a police presence so less need for the last resort of retreating to a place of safety .

And hopefully a massive disaster for the strikers who are the people causing the pain all in the name of concern for the passengers welfare. Well that may sort itself out when there are no passengers. On the other hand lets get a new role created as soon as possible and ease the strikers out.
The idea of getting a new role created has already been discussed and is simply not feasible . And are you really suggesting "easing" people out just because they have taken part in strike action ?
 

Dr Hoo

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This sounds like a bit of a yarn. To emphasise this, a newly qualified junior doctor is on a minimum of £30k basic, which guard at ARN gets that?!
It’s not a yarn. I’ve just delivered the car! Remember that newly qualified graduates have part of their pay over a certain threshold deducted for student loan repayment. These doctors have seen typical rail staff earnings (not allowing for strike days, obviously and no doubt often including Sundays) bandied around in the media.
Anyway my main point was about permanently losing regular rail passenger business.
 

Robertj21a

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What use is that to us, as rail users, when to break the strike we have to destroy the very railway we rely on ?

All sides (including central Government) need to come together in this dispute and reach whatever agreement it takes to end the strike and get the trains running again.


Unfortunately, the point remains that it's never advisable to give in to what is, effectively, blackmail. Apart from the ethics involved, it just makes matters even more difficult a bit further on.
 

HowardGWR

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Unfortunately, the point remains that it's never advisable to give in to what is, effectively, blackmail. Apart from the ethics involved, it just makes matters even more difficult a bit further on.
Yes, I agree, and in passing give thanks to LowLevel for his (he is a him, I have assumed) careful answers.
 

DaveB10780

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Im not saying that working in A&E on a saturday night / Sunday morning is a brilliant working environment . But whilst there is no place of safety there is security staff on hand in the hospital and last time I was in A&E on a Saturday night (non alcohol related) there was also a police presence so less need for the last resort of retreating to a place of safety .

The idea of getting a new role created has already been discussed and is simply not feasible . And are you really suggesting "easing" people out just because they have taken part in strike action ?
Not because of the strike action but because the reason given for the strike "passenger safety" is just not true. In the main it has all been done for RMT political purposes, just read the nonsense they spout out. The guards should see through this and realise the damage they are perpetrating on loads of ordinary folks who just wish to use the trains on a Saturday.
 

Carlisle

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Unfortunately, the point remains that it's never advisable to give in to what is, effectively, blackmail. Apart from the ethics involved, it just makes matters even more difficult a bit further on.
From totally understandable beginnings the dispute now appears to have degenerated mainly into an idealistic obsession (whether mostly driven by the members or leadership or both im unsure) to win everything at almost any price whatever the consequences
 
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Gems

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Absolutely fascinating conversation with a manager who is playing a huge part in testing and setting up the new units. Opened my eyes to a whole new chain of thought and perspective, and not in a negative way.

Not that it is worth sharing here.
 

Tomnick

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Absolutely fascinating conversation with a manager who is playing a huge part in testing and setting up the new units. Opened my eyes to a whole new chain of thought and perspective, and not in a negative way.

Not that it is worth sharing here.
I’d certainly be interested in the views of those directly involved with the new units!
 

Gems

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I’d certainly be interested in the views of those directly involved with the new units!

To me it isn't feasible to share info in a environment that is not open minded. Too much vitrol expressed of late here, and the net result is shutting down from some of us who have been on the railway for many years and have the contacts.

I will say though that I am now totally convinced of my stance about DCO with these units, and it is not necessarily in line with the RMT's anymore. I am more convinced than ever that my thoughts were and still are the correct thoughts. I'm also more sure that I would like to lock a lot of people from all sides into a big room and not let them out until they have talked themselves into the ground.
 

Bletchleyite

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To me it isn't feasible to share info in a environment that is not open minded.

Individuals may not be open minded, but there is quite a spectrum of views (from "everything should be DOO without OBS", to my view of "DOO is justified in some cases but not others, and in some cases with and in others without OBS", onto "there should never be DOO anywhere") and bringing wider information to it is of great benefit in my view even if not everyone will necessarily agree with it.
 

Gems

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Individuals may not be open minded, but there is quite a spectrum of views (from "everything should be DOO without OBS", to my view of "DOO is justified in some cases but not others, and in some cases with and in others without OBS", onto "there should never be DOO anywhere") and bringing wider information to it is of great benefit in my view even if not everyone will necessarily agree with it.
I'll say it in pinchpoints.

The leasing company will not yet do the deal with CAF because at this moment in time there are some issues, but not major issues. This has knocked back the passenger service launch date and risks further chaos in any new timetable changes next May. (Northern management take note)

Mechanically there is no major mechanical issues with either type of units. But the software is constantly having to be updated. There has been software issues with coupled units not talking to each other.

The ADOS system although very good has a few issues to be sorted. Many of 'Networkrails' figures for platform lengths have been proved wrong, and every platform has had to be measured again.

The cameras will only come on when the screen is touched. They can also be viewed from the rear cab which in some instances would be a massive bonus. Unlike some units the cameras switch off at 13MPH and not when the train takes power. This could alarm ASLEF a little because at Leeds 13MPH is the end of the platforms. If the cameras are on and a incident occurs as the train is pulling away, it could potentially lead to questions like, why did you not notice it. But overall from someone like myself who takes PTI seriously, the fact that they are on to 13MPH settles some doubts.

The ADOS system is set up using the trains headcode. The units have to be set up whilst in multiple to every station they will call at. At the moment it is being set up for the Barrow to Manchester route, and Blackpool to Manchester Airport. If the system should fail though, the consequences are a little unknown. It also raises questions as to what would happen should a train be given additional calls whilst on route. There is also a little uncertainty should a train over shoot a platform. Of course these issues are mostly whilst in multi, and much testing is yet to be completed.

These are just some of the teething issues at the moment, but to me it indicates a line of thinking I and a few others here have adapted. Give the door operation to the driver, these units have the software and tools to keep it safe. But keep the second man safety critical for those occasions, (and occasions will come about) where a second person might need to take over door operation to keep the service running.

At the moment this way of thinking does not seem to have been considered, but I suspect it will when the full picture emerges. I doubt any guard would disagree with this line, and passengers would end up with a lot less cancellations.
 

yorksrob

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To me it isn't feasible to share info in a environment that is not open minded. Too much vitrol expressed of late here, and the net result is shutting down from some of us who have been on the railway for many years and have the contacts.

I will say though that I am now totally convinced of my stance about DCO with these units, and it is not necessarily in line with the RMT's anymore. I am more convinced than ever that my thoughts were and still are the correct thoughts. I'm also more sure that I would like to lock a lot of people from all sides into a big room and not let them out until they have talked themselves into the ground.

I don't think that's a fair characterisation of the spectrum of posters on here. Many of us are certainly sympathetic to the benefits of having a second person on the train, and can understand why the ability not to have that second person, might be seen as the back door to not having that second person at all.

I'm certainly interested in any thoughts on how the new trains might affect things (although it will inevitably be a case of too little, too late, in the context of getting this dispute stopped).
 

yorksrob

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I'll say it in pinchpoints.

The leasing company will not yet do the deal with CAF because at this moment in time there are some issues, but not major issues. This has knocked back the passenger service launch date and risks further chaos in any new timetable changes next May. (Northern management take note)

Mechanically there is no major mechanical issues with either type of units. But the software is constantly having to be updated. There has been software issues with coupled units not talking to each other.

The ADOS system although very good has a few issues to be sorted. Many of 'Networkrails' figures for platform lengths have been proved wrong, and every platform has had to be measured again.

The cameras will only come on when the screen is touched. They can also be viewed from the rear cab which in some instances would be a massive bonus. Unlike some units the cameras switch off at 13MPH and not when the train takes power. This could alarm ASLEF a little because at Leeds 13MPH is the end of the platforms. If the cameras are on and a incident occurs as the train is pulling away, it could potentially lead to questions like, why did you not notice it. But overall from someone like myself who takes PTI seriously, the fact that they are on to 13MPH settles some doubts.

The ADOS system is set up using the trains headcode. The units have to be set up whilst in multiple to every station they will call at. At the moment it is being set up for the Barrow to Manchester route, and Blackpool to Manchester Airport. If the system should fail though, the consequences are a little unknown. It also raises questions as to what would happen should a train be given additional calls whilst on route. There is also a little uncertainty should a train over shoot a platform. Of course these issues are mostly whilst in multi, and much testing is yet to be completed.

These are just some of the teething issues at the moment, but to me it indicates a line of thinking I and a few others here have adapted. Give the door operation to the driver, these units have the software and tools to keep it safe. But keep the second man safety critical for those occasions, (and occasions will come about) where a second person might need to take over door operation to keep the service running.

At the moment this way of thinking does not seem to have been considered, but I suspect it will when the full picture emerges. I doubt any guard would disagree with this line, and passengers would end up with a lot less cancellations.

Thank you for some very interesting insights.
 

Gems

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I don't think that's a fair characterisation of the spectrum of posters on here. Many of us are certainly sympathetic to the benefits of having a second person on the train, and can understand why the ability not to have that second person, might be seen as the back door to not having that second person at all.

I'm certainly interested in any thoughts on how the new trains might affect things (although it will inevitably be a case of too little, too late, in the context of getting this dispute stopped).
You know what the shame of all this is. If the government had not changed union legislation where a vote has to take place every six month, we might not be here now. It was a race to get the ballot out before the law changed, and now we are where we are. Tragic isn't the word.
This strike was called before a single unit was even built, and now they are being built it is going to be a mammoth task to change hearts and minds. I have heard first hand, and my mind is changing. Can the management and the DFT change also? There is so much potential to turn what is basically a basket case rail franchise into something so much better, lets all hope the adults come out to play at some point because these units are the most comfortable units in the Northern fleet by a mile.
 

Gems

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Indeed, thank you @Gems.

Is ADOS an SDO system, or is it actually Automatic Door Opening System or somesuch, i.e. opening without any intervention?
ADOS is the selective door opening system. I was trying to get my head around what I was being told. It is very high tech compared to some earlier systems it seems. It works in conjunction with other systems. Not sure how many Northern passengers will deal with it though, they are not used to this form of technology that is for sure. But I am quite impressed with it's capabilities.
I think what we all have to realise is that Northern is not Southern, we don't have the infrastructure and every station and platform can be different. This system should work better for that situation.
 

Bletchleyite

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ADOS is the selective door opening system. I was trying to get my head around what I was being told. It is very high tech compared to some earlier systems it seems. It works in conjunction with other systems. Not sure how many Northern passengers will deal with it though, they are not used to this form of technology that is for sure. But I am quite impressed with it's capabilities.
I think what we all have to realise is that Northern is not Southern, we don't have the infrastructure and every station and platform can be different. This system should work better for that situation.

Cheers.
 

Robertj21a

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I'll say it in pinchpoints.

The leasing company will not yet do the deal with CAF because at this moment in time there are some issues, but not major issues. This has knocked back the passenger service launch date and risks further chaos in any new timetable changes next May. (Northern management take note)

Mechanically there is no major mechanical issues with either type of units. But the software is constantly having to be updated. There has been software issues with coupled units not talking to each other.

The ADOS system although very good has a few issues to be sorted. Many of 'Networkrails' figures for platform lengths have been proved wrong, and every platform has had to be measured again.

The cameras will only come on when the screen is touched. They can also be viewed from the rear cab which in some instances would be a massive bonus. Unlike some units the cameras switch off at 13MPH and not when the train takes power. This could alarm ASLEF a little because at Leeds 13MPH is the end of the platforms. If the cameras are on and a incident occurs as the train is pulling away, it could potentially lead to questions like, why did you not notice it. But overall from someone like myself who takes PTI seriously, the fact that they are on to 13MPH settles some doubts.

The ADOS system is set up using the trains headcode. The units have to be set up whilst in multiple to every station they will call at. At the moment it is being set up for the Barrow to Manchester route, and Blackpool to Manchester Airport. If the system should fail though, the consequences are a little unknown. It also raises questions as to what would happen should a train be given additional calls whilst on route. There is also a little uncertainty should a train over shoot a platform. Of course these issues are mostly whilst in multi, and much testing is yet to be completed.

These are just some of the teething issues at the moment, but to me it indicates a line of thinking I and a few others here have adapted. Give the door operation to the driver, these units have the software and tools to keep it safe. But keep the second man safety critical for those occasions, (and occasions will come about) where a second person might need to take over door operation to keep the service running.

At the moment this way of thinking does not seem to have been considered, but I suspect it will when the full picture emerges. I doubt any guard would disagree with this line, and passengers would end up with a lot less cancellations.

Thanks for that information, we all appreciate having as many facts as possible.
If, as you suggest, the driver takes full control of the doors then it will be referred to as DOO, plus a safety critical 2nd person on board - OBSSC ( :) ) - perhaps we will need to come up with a better acronym !!
 

Starmill

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I'm near certain that the cameras being on after the train begins to move is in use as an approved method of working already. I gave the example earlier of London Overground where the driver does seem to be expected to use the screens until the train reaches a certain speed (I don't know what it is, 5mph?). TfL Rail drivers, whose trains are some of them equipped with platform to train CCTV, work in a smiliar fashion don't they?

Obviously, circumstances are different in different locations, but there is precedent for this.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm near certain that the cameras being on after the train begins to move is in use as an approved method of working already. I gave the example earlier of London Overground where the driver does seem to be expected to use the screens until the train reaches a certain speed (I don't know what it is, 5mph?). TfL Rail drivers, whose trains are some of them equipped with platform to train CCTV, work in a smiliar fashion don't they?

Obviously, circumstances are different in different locations, but there is precedent for this.

It is certainly a case where a quick glance as the wheels start to move could save lives.
 
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