EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[furnessvale]

I don't understand how buying from countries much, much further away (with considerably higher transport costs, never mind the environmental costs - not that Leavers care much for that of course) helps with buying cheaper fruit and veg, when we can currently freely trade with the EU anyway for produce right on our doorstep.

Totally relevant to the question, sorry.

It is cheaper shipping by a large container ship from the other side of the world, than by HGV from the far side of the EU.

 

[Muttley]

...when we can currently freely trade with the EU ...

Yep, and that free trade only costs £350m a week, or £39bn if TM gets her way.
That'd buy a lot of oranges.

 

[nidave]

Yep, and that free trade only costs £350m a week, or £39bn if TM gets her way.
That'd buy a lot of oranges.

The £350 Million is a lie and you know it. its been debunked so many times.

 

[Howardh]

It is cheaper shipping by a large container ship from the other side of the world, than by HGV from the far side of the EU.

If the UK can source cheap foods and goods - doesn't that undercut our own farmers and manufacturers, meaning they go out of business? Many farms, for example, can't diversify due to their geography and climate restricting them. Is that what Brexit wants??

 

[Howardh]

Umm, the EU is big, but not that big! A little Googling shows EU population = 510 million. If we leave, that will go down to about 445 million. USA = 330 million. I've rounded all figures to the nearest 5 million to avoid arguments about different sources giving very slightly different figures.

I could be awkward and ask you to add the 70m from Turkey that Nigel is convinced are joining! It's still (Turkey-less) 110m bigger that the US, which is more than Canada, Australia, New Zealand added together..... so it's BIG.

 

[Senex]

It is cheaper shipping by a large container ship from the other side of the world, than by HGV from the far side of the EU.

So, given the new free-trade agreement between Japan and the EU, at what stage does it become better for the Japanese to ship cars from Japan rather than make them in factories in a Britain outside the EU?

 

[birchesgreen]

If the UK can source cheap foods and goods - doesn't that undercut our own farmers and manufacturers, meaning they go out of business? Many farms, for example, can't diversify due to their geography and climate restricting them. Is that what Brexit wants??

I've come to the conclusion Brexit is basically "I'm all right Jack" on a national scale

 

[Muttley]

So, given the new free-trade agreement between Japan and the EU, at what stage does it become better for the Japanese to ship cars from Japan rather than make them in factories in a Britain outside the EU?

How much are Japan paying for their free trade ?

 

[Howardh]

I've come to the conclusion Brexit is basically "I'm all right Jack" on a national scale

Even Jack may come in for a nasty surprise.

Still no comments approving/disapproving/neutral of Javid's new immigration policies. Assume all Brexit voters are happy?

 

[Howardh]

How much are Japan paying for their free trade ?

No ides, byt found this infographic about what we sell/export to Japan; http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...t/eu-japan-in-your-town/united-kingdom_en.htm

 

[birchesgreen]

Even Jack may come in for a nasty surprise.

Still no comments approving/disapproving/neutral of Javid's new immigration policies. Assume all Brexit voters are happy?

Oh yes Jack is going to have a rude awakening

 

[433N]

The trouble is the remainders are like little children, they are crying because they cant have it their way. Adults have to accept that it was a vote to leave DEMOCRATICALLY. I voted not to join the EU all those years ago but we were more adult and accepted DEMOCRACY.

Writing DEMOCRACY in big letters does not give you a monopoly on it ; nor does it prove to anyone that you know what you are talking about.

What is democracy ? Have you read any Aristotle ? I doubt it ; probably the screaming right wing red tops are more your thing.

If you've done any reading on the subject then you will know that Aristotle actually said that there can be no democracy whilst there is great division in society ... errr, not exactly the case here on a vote after 6 years of austerity which represented open season on the people with the least and resulted in more wealth for those with the most.

Besides, isn't the aim of democracy equality ? If so, and we live in a democracy, then it is doing a pretty poor job after so many hundreds of years. Why should anyone have any respect for it. What morality enforces the will of the majority on that of the few. It's ironic that Brexiteers with a big bold vision for Britain's capacity for innovation are so incapable of original thought and regurgitate slogans from the right wing media without any qualification.

And how does the unelected judiciary fit in with your idea of a 'democracy'. Freedom from the ECJ seems to be becoming so important but what laws have been passed that have been detrimental to the UK. In fact, the ECJ has been essential in protecting human rights in the UK ; proportionately more than for many other EU countries.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yep, and that free trade only costs £350m a week, or £39bn if TM gets her way.
That'd buy a lot of oranges.

EU membership covers a lot more than trade agreements with the EU - we are party to over 750 other treaties and agreements that need to be renegotiated. Bringing that back "in-house" will be cost more than £350m (even it that were the figure) and the value will get will be a lot less.

Think of a Costco membership - pay for membership and you get to buy in the warehouse at a discount. Don't buy a card - off you go to Tesco and higher prices. That's if the stuff you want is in Tesco.... some retailers may only want to deal in bulk and stay exclusive to the Big Warehouse. Or will only sell us stuff if we allow their warehouse workers in to help with the loading and stacking.

There have been far too many glib promises by politicians that don't even understand the basics (Raab*** - "I didn't realise the importance of Dover" ) swallowed too easily by a willing public softened up over time by lies in the Express and Mail playing to their own confirmation bias, rather than doing a little research and understanding more about the huge implications of this decision.

It's a lot more than oranges (or Straight Bananas* or keeping our plugs**)

* Real Question Time audience member
** Caller to LBC
*** Apparently a minister of State leading the Brexit process. For Fox Sake!

 

[Muttley]

So it'll cost more than a week's contributions. How many weeks, roughly, 2,3,4 ?

 

[Puffing Devil]

So it'll cost more than a week's contributions. How many weeks, roughly, 2,3,4 ?

The cost of what?

 

[nidave]

So it'll cost more than a week's contributions. How many weeks, roughly, 2,3,4 ?

You are doing the typical thing and focusing on a single issue - there is a lot more to the EU than trade that the membership fee covers. I.e lots of mutal databases which we will have to create (or pay for acccess to) Eurocontrol, eurotom etc etc we are going to have to pay for access to these or set up our own systems and pay for the running and staffing. There are many many more - the lack of understanding on how the EU works is shocking considering this site should contain people who want to understand the nuts and bots of the railways.

 

[HH]

It is a high figure. It's one of, if not the, highest rates in the EU, in one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

Whether you think it's OK or not, those are facts.

Unfortunately one other fact is that non-EU immigration was 316k, so it's hard to see that leaving the EU is the answer to the problem...

 

[Howardh]

Unfortunately one other fact is that non-EU immigration was 316k, so it's hard to see that leaving the EU is the answer to the problem...

Indeed the Home Secretary's plans show no commitment to lowering this or even having a "target"; it's commented on the news today that immigration may well have to increase as we have almost full employment.
Wouldn't it be nice if we kept freedom of movement so we could move the other way should we wish? Losing it probably increases our population as we can't move away as easily?

 

[Muttley]

The cost of what?

As in your first paragraph above.

You are doing the typical thing and focusing on a single issue - there is a lot more to the EU than trade that the membership fee covers. I.e lots of mutal databases which we will have to create (or pay for acccess to) Eurocontrol, eurotom etc etc we are going to have to pay for access to these or set up our own systems and pay for the running and staffing. There are many many more - the lack of understanding on how the EU works is shocking considering this site should contain people who want to understand the nuts and bots of the railways.

And yet Greece, Croatia, and 20 other nations manage to take out of the kitty.

 

[AM9]

Oh yes Jack is going to have a rude awakening

You can split the 'Jacks' into three:

a) those, nationalists who are consumed with disrespect for any humans that aren't just like them, and convinced by extreme right-wing politics that all of their issues will be solved by removing 'foregners from their view.
b) those, who have genuinely had a rough deal since the 2009 recession and feel that they have been left behind. The nationalist politicians seemed to answer their prayer as it promised so much.
c) those, who similar to the second group have also had a rough time but rather than following the baying mob, actually listend to the arguments from both sides of the debate and decided that the situation they knew wasn't necessarily responsible for their personal predicament.​

So come the day (if it does) when the UK walks into a chaotic no-deal situation, those groups will have a rude awakening. How they behave may well become a major problem. Those in group c) may well take to the street as supply chains fail and prices start to rise steeply. Some of those in group b) will realise that they have been duped and seek some sort of revenge on those who lied to them; and hardcore leavers in group a) will probably suddenly adopt as low a profile as possible to avoid being physically attacked. I imagine some of that dissappearing act will start as soon as it becomes clear that we will crash out of all the existing arrangements. A few might continue to try and blame everybody else for the failure of their 'solution', (when the corrupt 'project fear' statement becomes completely toxic), but they will only do that via the anonymity of social media logins.

 

[Puffing Devil]

As in your first paragraph above.

And yet Greece, Croatia, and 20 other nations manage to take out of the kitty.

I give in. Go back to reading the Express.

 

[nidave]

As in your first paragraph above.

And yet Greece, Croatia, and 20 other nations manage to take out of the kitty.

SIGH.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I will not respond to this post in detail. My response would only upset you further which is not my intention.

Unlike you I try to keep emotion out of these types of debates as that very quickly turns discussion into a personal matter.

I will say I agree entirely that the immigration system doesn't work. I will further say you are not the only person to have some experience of that system. I know of two people close to me that have experienced similar issues. One almost identical to the situation you describe. They may not he my wife but they are my friends. I hope they are acceptable examples upon which to base my opinion

However, the new rules released today will not impact on the issues you describe. They are the symptom of a lack of funding, a lack of personal, poor and ineffective management, culture and leadership and a system that can't communicate internally! Obviously that comes from the top but the rules for deciding who comes in are separate from the administration of those rules.

Finally I maintain the vast majority of migrants come here for economic reasons.

It seems to me the bit I've bolded is roughly the point I was trying to make. Remember, the reason this sub-thread arose is because I responded to someone asking what was controversial about the Tories' proposed post-Brexit immigration policy - and my response was (to roughly paraphrase) that it was objectionable because it doesn't treat migrants as human beings. And that's the thing. You and I both agree that Brexit is terrible in many ways. I'd acknowledge though that one small good thing about Brexit is that it will ease pressure on immigration. A Government that cared about people could have responded to this by saying, OK, we'll take this chance to make our immigration system more humane. To sort out some of the problems of families being separated, people being stuck in limbo, to stop Home Office ripping people off when they apply for visas, and so on. (Obviously, a Government that cared about people could do all these things even without Brexit, but you get the point). But the Government has chosen not to. They've issued a white paper that, far from proposing to treat migrants like human beings, proposes to treat them even more like commodities to be used if they benefit the UK economy, and thrown away if they don't. (Yes, obviously, I'm speaking metaphorically, not literally, here. By the way, the cynic in me says that's not far removed from the UK Government's attitude towards the disabled, people on low incomes or on benefits etc. etc., but that's getting way off topic for an EU debate).

And to clarify, I agree that most people will come here for economic reasons. Doesn't mean we should treat them any less as human beings.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And yet Greece, Croatia, and 20 other nations manage to take out of the kitty.

Well, yes, the EU budget and funding works on the principle that the wealthier countries pay more, allowing the poorer countries to be helped, with the intention of getting all members up to a reasonable standard of living. Is there something objectionable about that?

 

[HH]

Studying the way that people's minds work is rather a hobby of mine.

People hate to admit they made a mistake, so we aren't going to see many people changing their minds about Brexit. This is why, despite all the evidence that Brexit is not going to deliver any favourable outcomes - not even reducing net immigration which was the key factor in many (I'd say the vast majority of) leave votes - their won't be many changing their vote if we had a second referendum, and even fewer admitting to it. Of course there is reason to believe that the demographics will have shifted things slightly and it's possible that more young people will get off their backsides and vote now they have seen the full horror of where the demagogues are taking us, but all told we would still get a very close vote and that means half the people who voted will still feel cheated by the result.

Basically we are stuffed. There is no good outcome and there probably never was from the moment that diddy Dave had his revelation on the road to Chequers.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Studying the way that people's minds work is rather a hobby of mine.

People hate to admit they made a mistake, so we aren't going to see many people changing their minds about Brexit. This is why, despite all the evidence that Brexit is not going to deliver any favourable outcomes - not even reducing net immigration which was the key factor in many (I'd say the vast majority of) leave votes - their won't be many changing their vote if we had a second referendum, and even fewer admitting to it. Of course there is reason to believe that the demographics will have shifted things slightly and it's possible that more young people will get off their backsides and vote now they have seen the full horror of where the demagogues are taking us, but all told we would still get a very close vote and that means half the people who voted will still feel cheated by the result.

Basically we are stuffed. There is no good outcome and there probably never was from the moment that diddy Dave had his revelation on the road to Chequers.

I agree with you.

What really annoys me is the suicidal path our party politicians seem to be set on with the "Will of the people" as a standard, despite:

• Polling showing that the "Will of the people" has changed
• Leave lied, cheated and misrepresented the implications and direction of leave
• No clear understanding of the impact of leave, both in the near and longer term

With all that I would hope that the greater benefit of the country would trump party politics. Unfortunately, many seem to be ready to cling to their own small piece of power rather than work for the benefit of the country as a whole. Withdrawing Article 50 now and having a sensible negotiation with the EU about leaving without the 29th March guillotine would be the sensible thing to do - if the country still wants to leave.

And Cameron - a plague upon him and his house.

 

[Ianno87]

It is cheaper shipping by a large container ship from the other side of the world, than by HGV from the far side of the EU.

Well done for bending the facts.

France, Spain, Italy etc. (where fruit comes from) are not "the far side of the EU"; that would be Greece, Cyprus, etc.

 

[Muttley]

I give in. Go back to reading the Express.

SIGH.

Well done you two. I fully expect your next response will be to call me a racist, then one of you to claim I'll be responsible for the IRAs actions, then lastly to get sanctioned by your tame Mod seeing as you can't win the argument.

Well, yes, the EU budget and funding works on the principle that the wealthier countries pay more, allowing the poorer countries to be helped, with the intention of getting all members up to a reasonable standard of living. Is there something objectionable about that?

If we're uplifting their standard of living, why do we also need free movement of people ?

 

[bramling]

You can split the 'Jacks' into three:

a) those, nationalists who are consumed with disrespect for any humans that aren't just like them, and convinced by extreme right-wing politics that all of their issues will be solved by removing 'foregners from their view.
b) those, who have genuinely had a rough deal since the 2009 recession and feel that they have been left behind. The nationalist politicians seemed to answer their prayer as it promised so much.
c) those, who similar to the second group have also had a rough time but rather than following the baying mob, actually listend to the arguments from both sides of the debate and decided that the situation they knew wasn't necessarily responsible for their personal predicament.​

So come the day (if it does) when the UK walks into a chaotic no-deal situation, those groups will have a rude awakening. How they behave may well become a major problem. Those in group c) may well take to the street as supply chains fail and prices start to rise steeply. Some of those in group b) will realise that they have been duped and seek some sort of revenge on those who lied to them; and hardcore leavers in group a) will probably suddenly adopt as low a profile as possible to avoid being physically attacked. I imagine some of that dissappearing act will start as soon as it becomes clear that we will crash out of all the existing arrangements. A few might continue to try and blame everybody else for the failure of their 'solution', (when the corrupt 'project fear' statement becomes completely toxic), but they will only do that via the anonymity of social media logins.

I can't help but pick up a feeling of wishful thinking in the above!

 

[bramling]

Indeed the Home Secretary's plans show no commitment to lowering this or even having a "target"; it's commented on the news today that immigration may well have to increase as we have almost full employment.
Wouldn't it be nice if we kept freedom of movement so we could move the other way should we wish? Losing it probably increases our population as we can't move away as easily?

You can't have it both ways. On the one hand saying that the economy is going to nosedive with many people out of work, but on the other hand claim immigration will be vital due to "almost full employment".