Arriva Rail North DOO

[Ken H]

Actually you are totally wrong. It has opened peoples eyes, and a lot of people ask why a German owned company is taking taxpayer funded profits out of the country.

Like Japanese owned Nissan, Toyota, Honda and now hitachi, Indian owned Tata, German owned Mini, Rolls Royce and Bentley....

 

[Jonfun]

Pointing out to passengers that guards start on £28k is playing a little dirty but will really resonate with passengers.

28k is about the average wage, isn't it? Its hardly an extreme like, say, if they published how much the MD earns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do the RMT state “German owned”Arriva Trains. Is it pandering to the Tommy Robinson’s of the world? Really crass statement which undermines what it is trying to achieve.

It is utterly crass like most of what they are coming out with in defence of what on the face of it is a reasonable position (if not one I 100% agree with).

 

[northwichcat]

Why do the RMT state “German owned”Arriva Trains. Is it pandering to the Tommy Robinson’s of the world? Really crass statement which undermines what it is trying to achieve.

Technically Arriva Rail North are owned by Sunderland based Arriva PLC.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm deluded, I'm deluded. No I'm not, I do the job and understand the issues. You don't.

I can't remember ever, any passenger ever saying they disagree with the strikes to me.

That's strange. Although maybe it isn't. I can't recall any passenger saying they agree with strikes as a means to achieve the stated aims at this stage. Nor have I heard anyone support single manning of trains on our Hope Valley line. How that may be expressed would depend on how the matter was raised and by who.

However, that is largely irrelevant. What exactly are Northern proposing? How can we have reached strikes when nothing specific has been put forward?

OK, there is fear that some jobs may be less secure. There is concern that some passengers may receive less help. It's suggested safety could be compromised. But as nothing has been discussed or proposed how can a strike be justified so soon? Pre-emptive action? No wonder some might want more regulation of trades unions.

So far it seems to have been very successful! Northern have offered the opportunity for an independent inquiry. Whatever it reports it pushes the can down the road a few more weeks if not months. Is the RMT afraid of what it might say?

If I were wanting to reduce costs I'd be in despair now Northern have conceded almost all RMT have demanded before details have even been discussed.

New trains are imminent. Surely we aren't expected to believe that since the current 30 year old units were introduced there's no possible way in which operating procedures can be improved?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually you are totally wrong. It has opened peoples eyes, and a lot of people ask why a German owned company is taking taxpayer funded profits out of the country.

That has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this dispute and should not be brought into it - to me it (and the rest of the Communist style rhetoric) completely destroys the RMT's credibility to the point where I almost want them to lose just to get egg on their childish faces, were this to be possible without the guards being "collateral damage".

The RMT may wish to see the railways renationalised, and I would as well - but this is not how to achieve that nor does it have anything to do with DOO. Indeed, were BR still in existence I'd bet there would be a lot *more* DOO.

What's wrong with having a sensible, factual discussion on what on the face of it is quite a good point, namely that a second person on the train makes it safer?

 

[northwichcat]

28k is about the average wage, isn't it? Its hardly an extreme like, say, if they published how much the MD earns.

Average takes in to account everyone from those on zero hours contracts to Denise Coates (CEO of Bet365) who earned £265m in the last financial year.

If you take the average age of everyone in a small school (pupils and staff) you'll likely get an average age which no-one actually is!

 

[gazzaa2]

There's definitely parallels between this and the Miner's dispute in the 80s. That was also a Conservative government who were committed to winning the dispute at all costs. Cash has to be careful he doesn't end up as some kind of Scargill figure and he's not going to back down.

The hope for RMT is the government are weak. Thatcher was at her peak in the mid 80s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's definitely parallels between this and the Miner's dispute in the 80s. That was also a Conservative government who were committed to winning the dispute at all costs. Cash has to be careful he doesn't end up as some kind of Scargill figure and he's not going to back down.

There is a risk of the nuclear option being used. One way to do this, likely to be popular with passengers, would be to whack in an order for a complete fleet replacement, perhaps with benefits like low-floor, which will be operated DOO without OBS when it arrives (thus making all guards redundant), and get the buses out on a Saturday in the meantime. Another would be a massive raft of closures.

 

[northwichcat]

There's definitely parallels between this and the Miner's dispute in the 80s. That was also a Conservative government who were committed to winning the dispute at all costs. Cash has to be careful he doesn't end up as some kind of Scargill figure and he's not going to back down.

The hope for RMT is the government are weak. Thatcher was at her peak in the mid 80s.

Although the government can claim Northern DCO was agreed by a Conservative-Lib Dem government and approved by a Labour controlled Rail North, with it being Labour who proposed going a stage further and axing on board staff on Merseyrail.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They are deluded beyond belief.

That's an understatement.

 

[Robertj21a]

What can I say........

It's as if the RMT diehards on here are revelling in the idea of causing as much trouble as possible, presumably in some odd belief that it furthers their aims. To virtually everyone else they're becoming a laughing stock.

 

[Jonfun]

Average takes in to account everyone from those on zero hours contracts to Denise Coates (CEO of Bet365) who earned £265m in the last financial year.

If you take the average age of everyone in a small school (pupils and staff) you'll likely get an average age which no-one actually is!

Nevertheless it's a good metric, and a reasonable approximation. Yeah, its an average, but therefore there'll be some people on less and some people on more. 28k is hardly what anyone would describe as excessively high pay; perhaps to within a couple of thousand either way, but most industries would be similar I'm sure.

 

[northwichcat]

RMT will need to employ more admin staff. Their contact details are being circulated on social media with passengers being encouraged to tell them how the strikes have affected their pay and jobs.

 

[thealexweb]

From Arriva's/DfT's point of view, what would be the downsides of doubling down and moving the DOO target to 100% as soon as possible.

 

[Meerkat]

So what you are saying is that their starting salary is average pay for everybody, however experienced.

The inference will be that the guards will carry on getting decent money for doing less work - no doors and the general public will assume/expect that all other OBS roles are already part of the job description.

 

[Andyh82]

28k is about the average wage, isn't it? Its hardly an extreme like, say, if they published how much the MD earns.

Average salaries are about 25.5k. It was on the BBC News last week. As wages in London are higher due to the higher cost of living, then the average up north is likely to be a few thousand lower.

Therefore Northern guards receive an above average salary.

 

[Jonfun]

So what you are saying is that their starting salary is average pay for everybody, however experienced.

The inference will be that the guards will carry on getting decent money for doing less work - no doors and the general public will assume/expect that all other OBS roles are already part of the job description.

A cursory look on 'indeed' suggests the majority of jobs, certainly round my way anyway, which advertise a salary are somewhere between 23 and 33k.

Retail generally pays less, more niche industries tend to pay more.

 

[Jonfun]

Average salaries are about 25.5k. It was on the BBC News last week. As wages in London are higher due to the higher cost of living, then the average up north is likely to be a few thousand lower.

Therefore Northern guards receive an above average salary.

I think that's perhaps a little understated; in May the BBC claimed the average wage was £539 per week, equating to £28,028 per year. Average salaries up North were a little less, at around £26,600 per year. So there isn't a great deal in it really.

 

[northwichcat]

A cursory look on 'indeed' suggests the majority of jobs, certainly round my way anyway, which advertise a salary are somewhere between 23 and 33k.

Retail generally pays less, more niche industries tend to pay more.

Indeed's top 10 jobs within 25 miles of Knutsford, Cheshire (10 random jobs):

1. Salary DOE
2. £23,000 - £28,000 (40 hour working week)
3. Salary DOE
4. £7 - £9 an hour
5. £25,744 a year (37.5 hour working week)
6. £19,000-£20,000
7. Salary DOE
8. £19,000-£23,000
9. £18,000-£20,000
10. £18,000

With some jobs being DOE and others having a rate between two boundaries it's impossible to say what the 'average' or a typical one will be.

 

[furnessvale]

RMT will need to employ more admin staff. Their contact details are being circulated on social media with passengers being encouraged to tell them how the strikes have affected their pay and jobs.

That assumes that RMT will do anything other than delete any electronic communication and place any written communication straight in the bin.

 

[Jonfun]

Indeed's top 10 jobs within 25 miles of Knutsford, Cheshire (10 random jobs):

1. Salary DOE
2. £23,000 - £28,000 (40 hour working week)
3. Salary DOE
4. £7 - £9 an hour
5. £25,744 a year (37.5 hour working week)
6. £19,000-£20,000
7. Salary DOE
8. £19,000-£23,000
9. £18,000-£20,000
10. £18,000

With some jobs being DOE and others having a rate between two boundaries it's impossible to say what the 'average' or a typical one will be.

Aye, they're a little lower and less specific than the ones round here, which perhaps could be explained by Knutsford being more rural than a major city and so less likely to have bigger, more specialised businesses.

 

[Kite159]

That assumes that RMT will do anything other than delete any electronic communication and place any written communication straight in the bin.

Or they will respond in the same way they do on twitter, with a work experience person (who has read a book on how great socialism is)

 

[Killingworth]

Since when does capitulation equal any kind of negotiation? “Guard guarantee” is Northern getting nothing and RMT getting everything.

The PR battle is only going one way - just read Northern’s statement.
Passengers want second person - Northern are guaranteeing that.
DCO is proven safe - RMT are shouting at the wind.
Pointing out to passengers that guards start on £28k is playing a little dirty but will really resonate with passengers.

Hang on, Killingworth didn't say the words you were quoting before this post. They were in a quote from the RMT I'd posted for information

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm deluded, I'm deluded. No I'm not, I do the job and understand the issues. You don't.

I can't remember ever, any passenger ever saying they disagree with the strikes to me.

I disagree with the strikes.

 

[northwichcat]

Aye, they're a little lower and less specific than the ones round here, which perhaps could be explained by Knutsford being more rural than a major city and so less likely to have bigger, more specialised businesses.

Actually only one of them is in Knutsford, most of them are Northwich and Greater Manchester jobs. Many of the jobs available in Knutsford are for more specialised businesses but they only make up a small number of the total vacancies in the 25 mile radius.

 

[Meerkat]

Hang on, Killingworth didn't say the words you were quoting before this post. They were in a quote from the RMT I'd posted for information

Agreed. Apologies if it gave that impression.

 

[DaveB10780]

I'm deluded, I'm deluded. No I'm not, I do the job and understand the issues. You don't.

I can't remember ever, any passenger ever saying they disagree with the strikes to me.

Well for me that is because the individuals do not deserve being shouted at and we like to be polite. If you wish me to start saying what I feel then so be it. I hate you lot for wrecking Saturdays in the north of England. It has become a cosy pattern going nowhere and affecting loads of peoples lives.

 

[Killingworth]

As I get older I look back on union battles almost 50 years ago, a sobering thought! It must have been about 1977 that I was on a national committee considering the Bullock report recommending worker directors. We got quite excited about the prospect, starting to think how they would be selected. The German experience was to be our model for greater efficiency. I've probably still got my notes.

The nearest we got was worker representatives to act as pension trustees. The Wilson/Callaghan years were coming to an end. Strange that the RMT is now opposed to German ownership and we are further away than ever from any form of peaceful engagement with employers.

There were some who seemed to oppose worker directors purely because it was a foreign idea, and German to make it worse. I still think the idea had some merit.

Never mind, it didn't happen. We still have bickering unions poles apart from any constructive engagement with employers. I'll go back to sleep.

 

[superkev]

I wonder at what point the RMT will throw in the towel. Rather poor advise to there members to take on a war which was unwinable from the start whatever the issues.
K