EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[bnm]

Should soon have an announcement that there's going to be a second referendum.

Theresa May has categorically ruled it out so its now more likely to happen. Pretty much every other major decision she's made on Brexit has either been rolled back or U-turned.

 

[Senex]

If parliament is sovereign, why can't MPs force a vote on May's "deal" this week? Or does the sovereignty of parliament extend only as far as the leader of the majority party being invited to form the Sovereign's government, with the PM and her ministers then becoming that Sovereign's government, not the people's government through parliament? In other words, in practice the old feudal system continues and government is able to ignore the wishes of the people expressed through their representatives? I thought we had two events in the sixteenth century in connection with all that. Can any of the constitutional specialists here explain to me why parliament can't force the "meaningful vote" that a majority of its members appear to think ought to happen?

 

[Puffing Devil]

A great read on how British history has been leveraged in the Brexit campaign and how it's no longer relevant (unless we recover our empire and manufacturing base)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1074634063322013696.html

 

[HH]

A great read on how British history has been leveraged in the Brexit campaign and how it's no longer relevant (unless we recover our empire and manufacturing base)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1074634063322013696.html

At last, someone who understands what is happening. I'm sure I mentioned Dunkirk on one of these threads; that is the self-deluded, Brexit mindset exactly.

Trump appeals to something very similar in the US. It's a very comforting lie; all you remainers just lay back and think of Brexit and everything will be hunky dory.

And then you wake up.

 

[Howardh]

If Dover becomes gridlocked with ferries not being able to sail due to (at least) thorough checks by the French @ Calais holding everything up, how close/far is Folkestone from being a suitable alternative to take some of the traffic and sail to Bolougne (again)?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Leitrim, Longford and Roscommon. All areas with plenty of EU migrants living and working.

Have found it different in Monaghan, Cavan and Louth.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

At last, someone who understands what is happening. I'm sure I mentioned Dunkirk on one of these threads; that is the self-deluded, Brexit mindset exactly.

Trump appeals to something very similar in the US. It's a very comforting lie; all you remainers just lay back and think of Brexit and everything will be hunky dory.

And then you wake up.

..and the remainers are just as deluded if they think they have a say in the EU - it is run BY Germany for German interests. The Euro was set artificially low against the mark to help their economy at the expense of others like Greece and Spain. They allowed a million migrants into the EU without consulting any of the member states. Can you imagine the outcry if any other EU member state had done that. Many of the remain camp seem to be infected with the same arrogant mindset as Junckers and co and how dare anyone interfere with their 'European Project'. A second referendum vote within the next decade will be the greatest blow to democracy since the Mensheviks were denied power.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Non of the people I speak to and work with in Ireland feel the same and all think being in the eu benefits the people and country.

Well 44% in NI seemed to disagree with you - not exactly a tiny minority

 

[birchesgreen]

44%? Irrelevant. Their views should be completely ignored, just like the 48%.

 

[Ken H]

If Dover becomes gridlocked with ferries not being able to sail due to (at least) thorough checks by the French @ Calais holding everything up, how close/far is Folkestone from being a suitable alternative to take some of the traffic and sail to Bolougne (again)?

sail to ostend or zebrugge, miss out the French is they are going to be difficult.

 

[Ken H]

If parliament is sovereign, why can't MPs force a vote on May's "deal" this week? Or does the sovereignty of parliament extend only as far as the leader of the majority party being invited to form the Sovereign's government, with the PM and her ministers then becoming that Sovereign's government, not the people's government through parliament? In other words, in practice the old feudal system continues and government is able to ignore the wishes of the people expressed through their representatives? I thought we had two events in the sixteenth century in connection with all that. Can any of the constitutional specialists here explain to me why parliament can't force the "meaningful vote" that a majority of its members appear to think ought to happen?

the parliamentary timetable is set by the government whips. MP's have little say.

 

[AM9]

It’s the party of those who currently form the Government. Calling it “the party of Government” might give someone the mistaken idea that it was the Government which arranged last week’s vote of confidence in the Conservative Party’s leader.

Well as the vote of confidence was initiated by over 15% of government MPs and voted on by all government MPs, I would say that the Government arranged the vote.

 

[Howardh]

sail to ostend or zebrugge, miss out the French is they are going to be difficult.

The Belgians will have to apply the same rules as the French. Something along the lines of them being in the EU and Single Market with the French and all that. You know what, we should join the EU and have those protections too!!

 

[Senex]

the parliamentary timetable is set by the government whips. MP's have little say.

Exactly so — but is that what should happen if parliament is sovereign? Or does that just confirm the point that it's the Queen's Ministers, that feudal hangover, who are really sovereign? Normally I imagine this sort of thing is just academic, but we seem to have arrived in a situation where it is only ordinary MPs on both sides, if they could but find the means, who can save us from the blinkered idiocy of May and her ministers ably supported by the Opposition leadership's refusal to stage any effective opposition.

 

[mmh]

Well as the vote of confidence was initiated by over 15% of government MPs and voted on by all government MPs, I would say that the Government arranged the vote.

No. The word 'government' means multiple things depending on context. "The Government" means the ministers appointed by the Prime Minister and served by the civil service. Backbench MPs are not "in Government" - when a minister resigns, they are resigning from the Government.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

..and the remainers are just as deluded if they think they have a say in the EU - it is run BY Germany for German interests.

What utter rubbish!

Let's have a look at something a bit more balanced that gives some indication of the influence the UK had...

The most obvious indication of British influence in Brussels was the way in which the UK succeeded in shaping a number of core EC/EU policies. Prominent amongst these was the Internal Market, the central policy of the European Community’s mid-1980s revival. This was an initiative energetically championed by Margaret Thatcher’s government and one the implementation of which was masterminded by a British Commissioner, Arthur Cockfield. It was also a policy about which both Germany and France were much more ambivalent. British support and backing for it were thus essential to its realisation. And given the Single Market programme’s centrality to the direction of the Community/Union’s development over the subsequent period, the UK can thus legitimately claim to have had a decisive impact upon the whole trajectory of European integration in the final decades of the 20th century.

This was not an isolated example. Another key instance of British influence has been enlargement: the UK was a consistent advocate of a rapid opening of the EC/EU to new member states, especially those of Central and Eastern Europe. Competition policy would be a further example: Britain’s departure indeed may well call into question the underlying philosophy by which the case for and against corporate mergers has been judged, with market considerations losing ground to the desire to establish of ‘European champions’, i.e. companies big enough to compete globally. In trade policy also, the UK has been a liberalising voice of some weight. Looking further back, the British were important shapers of the Community’s regional policy when it was first introduced during the 1970s. And even in an area like foreign policy coordination, there were periods, like the early 1980s, when the UK participated enthusiastically in EC level discussions and helped steer policy. The Venice Declaration of 1980, which took a major step towards recognising the need to involve Palestinian representatives in any Arab-Israeli peace settlement, would be a case in point.

So, do you still think Britain doesn't get any say?

Obviously, Germany does have quite a bit of influence in the EU, for lots of reasons: Most notably, it's the biggest country in the EU and it's been very stable (financially and politically) - at least until recently. But it certainly doesn't run the EU single-handedly.

A second referendum vote within the next decade will be the greatest blow to democracy since the Mensheviks were denied power.

You're comparing a possible new referendum to clarify what to do after lots of new facts cast doubt on whether the (extremely narrow) result would still carry popular support with a Bolshevik revolution that lead to forced labour and the deaths of millions? Seriously? Are you sure you don't want to over-exaggerate a bit more? I'm sure if you put your mind to it, you could come up with some really impressive over-exaggerations. For example, how about suggesting that a new referendum would be even worse than - say - the civil war in Syria, or the 1980s famine in Ethiopia, or the meteorite that decimated the dinosaurs, or the Hiroshima atomic bomb? Or maybe, you could claim that a new referendum would be even worse than all of those put together...

 

[AM9]

What utter rubbish!

Let's have a look at something a bit more balanced that gives some indication of the influence the UK had...



So, do you still think Britain doesn't get any say?

Obviously, Germany does have quite a bit of influence in the EU, for lots of reasons: Most notably, it's the biggest country in the EU and it's been very stable (financially and politically) - at least until recently. But it certainly doesn't run the EU single-handedly.



You're comparing a possible new referendum to clarify what to do after lots of new facts cast doubt on whether the (extremely narrow) result would still carry popular support with a Bolshevik revolution that lead to forced labour and the deaths of millions? Seriously? Are you sure you don't want to over-exaggerate a bit more? I'm sure if you put your mind to it, you could come up with some really impressive over-exaggerations. For example, how about suggesting that a new referendum would be even worse than - say - the civil war in Syria, or the 1980s famine in Ethiopia, or the meteorite that decimated the dinosaurs, or the Hiroshima atomic bomb? Or maybe, you could claim that a new referendum would be even worse than all of those put together...

The word 'democracy' and its derivatives are in need of something like Godwin's law on threads like this. For the benefit of those who can't kick the habit of repeating it every couple of days, in the UK, democracy didn't die on 25th June 2016, so they can get used to hearing that it doesn't only apply to votes that go the way they want them to.

 

[nidave]

Well 44% in NI seemed to disagree with you - not exactly a tiny minority

Well my mum voted leave as her home help rounds have been cut to 5-10 min per visit and the fact her local A&E is only open now Monday - Friday 9am - 5pm but anecdotes are not a valid source but thought it might be worth sharing.
But lets share another one...

When asked for an example, Robert continued: “One of the ones for me is the plug system - I know it’s not very hugely [sic] but we obviously use the three-pin in this country. The EU don’t.

“So basically it means our safety aspects are a lot stronger than the generalisation of the EU.”

A bemused James responded: “But we’re in the EU? So you think we have to leave the EU to get three-pin plugs?”

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...s-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/

Sometimes wonder where they get these people from

In other news

Credit Suisse is sounding the alarm on Brexit uncertainty after advising some of its wealthiest clients to consider accelerating plans to move assets outside the UK ahead of a rescheduled vote on Prime Minister Theresa May's deal in January.

Private bankers at the Swiss lender reportedly contacted key clients to suggest that many customers had already opted to move assets outside of the UK already, and that they should consider doing the same.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-uncertainty-pushes-credit-suisse-to-advise-rich-clients-to-shift-assets-from-uk-2018-12?fbclid=IwAR36Aj3agN3JEw3WdQ6c16R9JZubEX5CUJUv-EMCM7PNmwCzEfZIG9I1ETI&r=US&IR=T

and...

Emergency no-deal Brexit contingency plans must now be implemented across government, cabinet ministers have agreed, including reserving ferry space for supplies and putting 3,500 armed forces personnel on standby to deal with any disruption.

Ministers agreed to allocate money from a £2bn contingency fund to departments such as the Home Office and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/18/brexit-cabinet-meets-to-discuss-ramping-up-plans-for-no-deal

Think of what that £2 Billion could have been used for - more sea defences, the NHS etc etc.

 

[nidave]

This is from the unionist area of Co Down

 

[Howardh]

This is from the unionist area of Co Down

That's just taking the mick out of those of us who can't get one!!

 

[nidave]

That's just taking the mick out of those of us who can't get one!!

I just need my photo signed by a teacher - application all ready to go - I'm not stupid.
I am offering marriage for a reasonable fee (before anyone says anything its a joke)

 

[radamfi]

I am offering marriage for a reasonable fee (before anyone says anything its a joke)

Seriously, though, it is quite absurd that some Brits may well have to resort to a sham marriage, which you normally associate with people from third world countries.

 

[Basher]

Only an issue for people who holiday in Europe. Not an issue for the majority of us who do not go to Europe.

 

[nidave]

Only an issue for people who holiday in Europe. Not an issue for the majority of us who do not go to Europe.

Well good for those people - the rest of us have to suffer (well not me)

Wait a second... for the majority of us who do not go to Europe ??? Have you a source for this astonishing "fact" I would think EU countries are at the top of destinations.
Edit:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...isits-by-uk-residents-non-seasonally-adjusted

A Simple search would suggest you are very mistaken.

Why do people post things that are easily disproven by a simple search? Do you think we wont go and try and find the official figures or are you suggesting they are fake?

 

[AM9]

... Why do people post things that are easily disproven by a simple search? Do you think we wont go and try and find the official figures or are you suggesting they are fake?

You shouldn't need to ask that about people who voted to leave on the basis that all politically inconvenient facts were 'project fear' lies.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Only an issue for people who holiday in Europe. Not an issue for the majority of us who do not go to Europe.

Could you discredit yourself anymore than you already have....oh yes you can and you have.

 

[fowler9]

Could you discredit yourself anymore than you already have....oh yes you can and you have.

It's alright. I'm sure nothing he ever buys had anything to do with Europe either. It's easy if you shut your eyes.

 

[bnm]

Well good for those people - the rest of us have to suffer (well not me)

Wait a second... for the majority of us who do not go to Europe ??? Have you a source for this astonishing "fact" I would think EU countries are at the top of destinations.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...isits-by-uk-residents-non-seasonally-adjusted

A Simple search would suggest you are very mistaken.

Why do people post things that are easily disproven by a simple search? Do you think we wont go and try and find the official figures or are you suggesting they are fake?

That annual ONS survey doesn't disprove the statement that "the majority of us don't go (on holiday) to Europe". All it does is list the most popular foreign destinations that UK residents visit for a holiday.

Add in all the non-EU destinations that UK residents visit for a holiday, and, most importantly, add in all those who holiday in the UK and its perfectly possible, nay probable based on a "simple search", that the majority don't go to the EU for a holiday. The ONS statitistics come from the International Passenger Survey, only surveying people travelling to and from the UK's ports of entry and exit. No domestic holiday travel is surveyed.

The following...
http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/artic...people-to-take-a-domestic-holiday-this-summer
... suggests more than half of UK residents had a domestic holiday in 2018.

The share of UK residents taking a holiday abroad from the United Kingdom was 15% in 2017 and forecast to be 17% in 2018.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/480160/share-of-britons-going-on-holiday-abroad/

Accusing people of not checking facts, then doing the very same is poor form. My stepfather was an ONS statistician. He conducted International Passenger Surveys until 2016.

 

[mmh]

100 days to go and the hysteria appears to be mounting by the minute. I see we've moved on from the IRA and buying second homes in the hope there'll be an Irish reunification referendum to sham marriages to get a different passport.

I wonder what will be next!

 

[Jonny]

Meanwhile, in other news:

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/c...ankruptcy-recession-German-cars-Lucas-Flother
Germany BANKRUPTCY warning over wave of financial distress 'to hit companies NEXT YEAR'
GERMANY has been warned to brace for a wave of bankruptcies next year with the car industry particularly in the danger zone, according to an insolvency administrator.
By LEVI WINCHESTER

Lucas Flöther, insolvency administrator of Air Berlin, has forecast financial downturn for automotive suppliers, the retail trade and companies in East Germany for the coming year. Credit agency Crif Bürgel shared similar negative sentiment as it predicted 305,000 companies across the country would be beginning the financial year with financial problems. Mr Flöther said: “Bankruptcies are already slightly on the rise again and that will intensify significantly next year.” The main areas of concern were highlighted in Saxony-Anhalt and Saxony, where nearly 12 percent of all farms are classified as vulnerable.
(article continues)

So, perhaps 2019 might be a good time to get out!