Arriva Rail North DOO

[HH]

Yes but it has made a mockery of Wilkinson's claims that we would all rollover by 24 days.

He's upped his estimate...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slam doors on trains were still safer than cars and lorries, which are still "killing people". I was a lot safer travelling on a slam door train than crossing the road.

That is very true, but if you could, at little cost, improve safety and operational efficiency in one go, why wouldn't you? It beggars belief it wasn't done earlier.

 

[yorksrob]

No, that isn't mutually acceptable. Who has said it is ?

You seem to overlook the simple fact that the railways are used by such a small % of the UK population that it really isn't of very much concern to most people. They'll be happy to let it drag on through 2019.

I say it is.

Why would even that percentage of people who don't use the railway be content to contribute towards the operation of a train service and not get what they are paying for, particularly over a highly obscure technical dispute about door operation ? Let alone those people who use it occasionally, and are therefore more likely to use it on a Saturday. Your argument makes no sense. The people who don't use trains aren't all angry and excited about how DCO is better than DO/GC operation.

I don't use the school system but as a taxpayer, I would be angry if I was paying for a school service that wasn't being delivered, particularly if the dispute was about something obscure.

 

[yorksrob]

That is very true, but if you could, at little cost, improve safety and operational efficiency in one go, why wouldn't you? It beggars belief it wasn't done earlier.

Well, you couldn't do it in one go because we don't replace all our trains at the same time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, you couldn't do it in one go because we don't replace all our trains at the same time.

That wasn't what I said. I meant that you could implement a feature that would deliver both of those improvements at once and costing next to nothing, and the European mainline railways did it before we'd even dreamed up the Mk3.

 

[Robertj21a]

I say it is.

Why would even that percentage of people who don't use the railway be content to contribute towards the operation of a train service and not get what they are paying for, particularly over a highly obscure technical dispute about door operation ? Let alone those people who use it occasionally, and are therefore more likely to use it on a Saturday. Your argument makes no sense. The people who don't use trains aren't all angry and excited about how DCO is better than DO/GC operation.

I don't use the school system but as a taxpayer, I would be angry if I was paying for a school service that wasn't being delivered, particularly if the dispute was about something obscure.

I doubt that any tax payers are happy to contribute to thousands of different things across the UK but, realistically, there's only so much we can do about it, through the ballot box. The amount spent on Northern is a trifling amount when you look at all the really big spending areas, so I'll lose little sleep over a few pence.

My point is that such a small % of the electorate use the trains that it's hardly likely to be a big issue for anyone to get very concerned about through 2019. Strikes will continue because there's no great will from anyone with the power to stop them.

 

[yorksrob]

I doubt that any tax payers are happy to contribute to thousands of different things across the UK but, realistically, there's only so much we can do about it, through the ballot box. The amount spent on Northern is a trifling amount when you look at all the really big spending areas, so I'll lose little sleep over a few pence.

My point is that such a small % of the electorate use the trains that it's hardly likely to be a big issue for anyone to get very concerned about through 2019. Strikes will continue because there's no great will from anyone with the power to stop them.

I think it's a bit of a misnomer that a tiny percentage of the population use trains. I think that when you take account of occasional users, that percentage increases significantly.

When you take into account the number of people in the North not only whose travel is being disrupted, but also whose businesses are being affected, I believe this is a political issue that is only going to get bigger.

 

[yorksrob]

That wasn't what I said. I meant that you could implement a feature that would deliver both of those improvements at once and costing next to nothing, and the European mainline railways did it before we'd even dreamed up the Mk3.

Or you could just move to central door locking, which is what we did in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you could just move to central door locking, which is what we did in the end.

That only solves the "killing people" issue, not the "operational convenience" one.

 

[Killingworth]

In the north about 1% of journeys are made by rail, the majority commuting journeys into the big cities. South-East commuting takes the national average higher.

Northern probably manage about 17-18% of the nations railway stations and receive the biggest subsidy per passenger mile.

There is latent demand for more rail travel. In the north that 1% could, over 10-20 years, be doubled, but to do so requires a lot to be improved.

The first thing is a reliable service, judged by many factors.

Will the train turn up when timetabled?

Will it run to time and meet a connection, be that another train, bus, taxi or pick up?

Frequency of that service is important. Every 10 minutes differs from roughly every 2 hours - the norm between many Northern services.

Availability of seats comes high on the list.

Price may not be as big a factor as is sometimes imagined, but complexity of the fare structure certainly is.

That's before we start on platform lengths and facilities, lack of tracks, congested junctions, antiquated signalling, worn out electric supplies and the weather.

Longer, more frequent, more comfortable and more timely trains are for the TOC to arrange and for that they have to have a dedicated and happy work force. All for one, one for all - and that doesn't include strikes.

Success is a lot of small things getting done by a lot of people who may think each act doesn't matter too much. It absolutely does.

Do the majority of our fellow citizens care? No, they don't. The railway is good for children and grand-children with Thomas the Tank Engine and his friends, but the Fat Controller didn't have to deal with the RMT and his trains usually smiled.

Let's hope for a miracle and that over this season of peace and goodwill all can smile as differences are discussed logically and resolutions found.

Then we may look forward to those young railway supporters having trains to ride on, for it is they who are the future of the railway.

 

[Carlisle]

Longer, more frequent, more comfortable and more timely trains are for the TOC to arrange and for that they have to have a dedicated and happy work force. All for one, one for all - and that doesn't include strikes.
.

Its going to be rather difficult when changing franchises every few years appear unintentionally to have created a culture akin to top level sport ie if the players don’t especially want to preform for a particular manager he /she will soon be replaced, set of beliefs

 

[Killingworth]

Its going to be rather difficult when changing franchises every few years appear unintentionally to have created a culture akin to top level sport ie if the players don’t especially want to preform for a particular manager he /she will soon be replaced, set of beliefs

Quite. Franchisees should have a much longer period to make real long term improvements. At any time a rolling 5 year horizon might be a minimum to get reliable investment decisions.

 

[Starmill]

I don't use the school system but as a taxpayer, I would be angry if I was paying for a school service that wasn't being delivered, particularly if the dispute was about something obscure

This point is worth mentioning. Everyone contributes to the railway through their taxes even if they don't use it. Those of us who do contribute to it doubly through fares as well. Everyone is a stakeholder and the level of service on offer has been below what it should be for a very long time now.

Of course, this does need to remain im proportion on the national scale. The wider economic losses have been estimated at hundreds of millions, which is still a very small percentage. But in the areas where disruption is concentrated this will still be felt and considered significant.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Certainly from my own anecdotal experience occasional travellers (who tended to use it on a Saturday for shopping/drinking) have stopped using the train and instead moved to bus/taxi instead. I doubt we'll get them all back.

Hell, the strikes have buggered up my Christmas too and I will now have to drive and pick them up - thanks RMT.

I live in a village on the Airedale with excellent rail to Leeds and Bradford - we've been less affected than most - yet the public now just see the trains as unreliable and useless (judging on pub chat I've had with folk).

I'm not sure if that was the RMT's goal but rebuilding that trust and ridership amongst non-commuting users will now take years.

As someone who works in the industry it is deeply frustrating seeing more and more people turn to cars and taxis for trips that could be made by rail if the bloody trains were actually running and travel behaviour is very hard to change once a new norm sets in.

I hope some solution is found soon. Frankly both Northern and the RMT need to grow up and find a compromise - which isn't easy but must, surely, be possible? Currently it seems like neither is very bothered about the situation and are happy for customers/passengers just to disappear into the ether.

 

[Gems]

We now have the nonsense of a 15 minute late delay repay scheme. Don't get me wrong, nothing against it at all in principle as long as Northern were actually paying for their delays. But it seems the government (Taxpayer) is funding it.
It is tantamount to buying a loaf of bread from Tesco's, realising it is moldy, asking for a refund, and having the cost of that refund added to your bill. Is there no end of how much Grayling will stump up to keep this outfit afloat? Is the man terrified of them folding? How long will they go on hiding behind the term 'business confidentiality'? There should be no such thing when the taxpayer is funding it.
So Northern will go on lurching from crisis to crisis. They will keep on sending out sets with 'Non Multi'stickers in both cab windows, because there is zero incentive for them to start acting like a business. Mr Taxpayer has a bottomless purse.

 

[Gems]

Certainly from my own anecdotal experience occasional travellers (who tended to use it on a Saturday for shopping/drinking) have stopped using the train and instead moved to bus/taxi instead. I doubt we'll get them all back.

Hell, the strikes have buggered up my Christmas too and I will now have to drive and pick them up - thanks RMT.

I live in a village on the Airedale with excellent rail to Leeds and Bradford - we've been less affected than most - yet the public now just see the trains as unreliable and useless (judging on pub chat I've had with folk).

I'm not sure if that was the RMT's goal but rebuilding that trust and ridership amongst non-commuting users will now take years.

As someone who works in the industry it is deeply frustrating seeing more and more people turn to cars and taxis for trips that could be made by rail if the bloody trains were actually running and travel behaviour is very hard to change once a new norm sets in.

I hope some solution is found soon. Frankly both Northern and the RMT need to grow up and find a compromise - which isn't easy but must, surely, be possible? Currently it seems like neither is very bothered about the situation and are happy for customers/passengers just to disappear into the ether.

Must admit it has been a very quiet Christmas on the trains. Sunday was busy, most people are just resigned to it now though so I think the long term there will be no end in sight. Guards are happy not to work Saturday lates. The government is happy to shell out millions in keeping Northern going. Just call 52 straight Saturdays by the end of this week then everyone knows where they are and can plan accordingly.

 

[Killingworth]

I understand Stagecoach buses are enjoying considerable extra patronage on Saturdays on their X10 between Barnsley and Leeds. So much so that on at least one journey they have put on 2 double deckers instead of one single decker. It may take longer end to end but also picks up from a number of stops in Barnsley which will make it competitive with rail for users along the route - and that will be remembered even when trains reliably run again.

However, it's concerning that both users and rail staff are getting used to a 6 day railway. The human race is very adaptable, but the consequences may be more apparent long term.

I recall an example from my father's career in banking. In the early 1960s most transactions were in cash. A big push to have wages paid direct into the bank took place and by the late 1960s cash was losing importance. Banks opened 10.00 - 15.00 Monday - Friday and 09.00 - 11.30 on Saturdays. Staff were expected to work 6 days with a few Saturdays off. My father worked in a city centre branch where few customers called on Saturdays so only worked alternate Saturdays. A friend worked in a suburban branch with only 3 staff and only got a Saturday off when a neighbouring office sent a member of their staff to cover. What's more the queue went out the door at 11.30 and he normally didn't get away until nearer 13.00. In those days unions in banks were very weak but in the London area in particular staff left in droves. The banks might have helped the situation by changing routines on Saturdays to improve customer service with fewer staff. They might have offered to pay overtime. They did neither.

In 1969 they decided to close all branches nationwide on Saturdays and extend Monday - Friday opening times to 9.30 - 15.30. The unions may have had a hand in this but at the time banks had no competition for current accounts. The building societies saw their chance and didn't follow suit as the banks had expected, and nor did the Post Office. The market share of the big banks didn't change overnight, but gradually the building societies grew at their expense. Now most are also banks. The banks saw their mistake and tried to open some branches on Saturdays, by then against very strong union opposition. To get a few open it cost a lot in extra payments to staff who'd become accustomed to getting all Saturdays off. By then ATMs had come along and customers had lost the Saturday banking habit.

How is this relevant? Because Northern passengers are finding regular alternative ways to get to their Saturday destinations. Some will be changing their Saturday activities long term to avoid using trains.

More seriously Northern staff (not just guards) will be getting used to working 6 days a week and may not want to work Saturdays when strike action ends. That may manifest itself in higher staff turnover when normal working returns. It must already be having major impact on stand-in guards who are clearly unhappy to do that job every Saturday. Some will have left as a result of the bad atmosphere.

Often the best way to get change, be it in wages or conditions, is not by union action but by labour market forces. In my own experience, and with hindsight, I suspect many of my union's victories were won on the back of those forces. Northern's HR department may be seeing an increase in staff attrition.

Reading Gems comments I can understand and empathise with the views. When in the trenches many will find it hard to see the broader picture.

I hope Northern (and DfT) can see that getting a settlement of the current dispute is becoming urgent before it does serious and long lasting damage to the franchise, even beyond the current tenure. I'm afraid the RMT shows little concern for what long term damage it may be doing, however, it's hard to tell who is the more culpable. Both sides need to stand back and avoid any desire to claim victory. At present everyone is losing - and for what?

 

[yorksrob]

This dispute just emphasises that even in this so-called "customer focused" age, passengers have absolutely no say or protection in the running of the railway. Perhaps the whole thing needs to be swept away and replaced by a collective, in which decisions are made by a board controlled 50/50 by a strong passenger group/devolved Government.

We have a system which is incapable of delivering a railway service, and that must surely lead to a long term change in governance.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Just call 52 straight Saturdays by the end of this week then everyone knows where they are and can plan accordingly.

If the RMT intend to call any more strikes for the new year then they ought to first ballot their members to see if they still have support. It's simply not acceptable that a ballot that took place nearly two years ago allows RMT staff to walk out whenever they like, especially considering that, had the ballot taken place a month later when the Trade Union Act came into force, then they wouldn't have got the majority they needed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ct-people-from-undemocratic-industrial-action

Quite frankly no-one believes the RMT's lies that it's all about safety any more and I reckon most guards are striking, not because they think it will have any effect, but simply because they have got used to having weekends off and want an easy life.

 

[HowardGWR]

What evidence is there that the Saturday strikes are costing the government much money? Northern trains are among the highest subsidised services in the country. If a reduced timetable is being run and little or no late services, then drivers are not being rostered, station staffing may be saved, BTP costs may be being reduced and so on. NR costs are mainly fixed, but most of the lines have other services running on them. Doubtless these services are filled rather 'cosily' but may be alternative solutions for many pax.

Perhaps there are bus services that were receiving public subsidy previouly that are now profitable.

I just wonder what the true overall financial effect is; a good task for an investigative reporter who doesn't just write his articles from Twitter?

 

[scrapy]

If the RMT intend to call any more strikes for the new year then they ought to first ballot their members to see if they still have support. It's simply not acceptable that a ballot that took place nearly two years ago allows RMT staff to walk out whenever they like, especially considering that, had the ballot taken place a month later when the Trade Union Act came into force, then they wouldn't have got the majority they needed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ct-people-from-undemocratic-industrial-action

Quite frankly no-one believes the RMT's lies that it's all about safety any more and I reckon most guards are striking, not because they think it will have any effect, but simply because they have got used to having weekends off and want an easy life.

Whilst I can understand some people may be annoyed that the RMT don't have to reballot they have played totally within the rules set by the government, The RMT don't set the rules, why would RMT voluntarily reballot when there is no evidence that there would be any difference to the result (otherwise a reballot would have been demanded by branches) and it would cost the union thousands?

I don't understand how you've come to the conclusion the RMT wouldn't have got the majority needed if the ballot had taken place a month later as they more than met the thresholds required under new legislation in the original ballot.

To say guards just want Saturdays off is certainly not the impression I get. If you asked people which day off they'd probably say Saturday although most would rather get a solution and go back to work.

 

[LowLevel]

Without any prejudice whatsoever if I could have Saturdays off without pay at the moment I would. Law enforcement have well and truly lost control of the railway on Saturday nights.

 

[quantinghome]

The railway is good for children and grand-children with Thomas the Tank Engine and his friends, but the Fat Controller didn't have to deal with the RMT and his trains usually smiled.

I take it you haven't read the story 'Trouble in the Shed' where the trains go on strike? I suspect the good reverend didn't have much time for unions. The Fat Controller uses Edward and Percy to break the strike and shuts the other engines in the shed. They eventually realise 'how silly they've been' and learn a jolly good lesson never to question the management.

 

[Killingworth]

I take it you haven't read the story 'Trouble in the Shed' where the trains go on strike? I suspect the good reverend didn't have much time for unions. The Fat Controller uses Edward and Percy to break the strike and shuts the other engines in the shed. They eventually realise 'how silly they've been' and learn a jolly good lesson never to question the management.

Now I'm reminded, yes I do recall Trouble in the Shed. I had a number of first editions, various relatives buying them as they came out. I still have them, although sons and grandsons have left them less than pristine. My father had to have every David & Charles rail book as soon as published! Still have his old Railway Magazines from about 1939-1965 stored somewhere.

 

[Clip]

If a reduced timetable is being run and little or no late services, then drivers are not being rostered, station staffing may be saved, BTP costs may be being reduced and so on

Stations still seem to be open - well their booking offices so im not sure much if any savings are being made - the BTP are rostered no matter what strikes are doing and some trains are running so no idea about drivers.

 

[LOL The Irony]

See what should've happened is the rmt should've kept quiet until as close to D-Day as possible and then said our members will refuse to sign these units until a safety critical 2nd member of staff is confirmed on all services. Northern would essentially be forced into it and the DfT would just have to sit by and let it happen.

 

[Tomnick]

See what should've happened is the rmt should've kept quiet until as close to D-Day as possible and then said our members will refuse to sign these units until a safety critical 2nd member of staff is confirmed on all services. Northern would essentially be forced into it and the DfT would just have to sit by and let it happen.

...to which Northern would quickly reply “we don’t need you to sign them anyway as we don’t intend to run them with a safety critical 2nd member of staff”. D’oh!

 

[johntea]

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...e-commuting-to-bradford-city-centre-by-train/

THE number of people using train to commute into Bradford city centre plummeted last year, according to new figures.

There was a 19 per cent drop in the numbers of people travelling into the city in morning peak times between 2016 and 2017. It means that just 6.1 per cent of people who travel to the city centre in that period opted to do so by train.

A spokesman for a local rail user’s group believes that poor service and the threat of delays and strikes have led to many rail users permanently abandoning train commuting in favour of driving.

Interesting to note despite the strikes now being at weekends, it has put off the Monday-Friday passengers permanently too. (although the May timetable probably didn't help convince them back!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, I suppose it means that those 2-car Class 195s some of us suggested were too short and would be overcrowded will have seats for all...

 

[Killingworth]

Well, I suppose it means that those 2-car Class 195s some of us suggested were too short and would be overcrowded will have seats for all...

Northern ordered 55 Class 195s with options on 7 more. According to Rail Vol 868, page 29 they've now ordered 3 extra 195/1s from that option. 4 more would be possible.