EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[mmh]

Citizens of EEC-countries outside Schengen or Switzerland will not need an ETIAS.

Thank you for the only sensible and relevant response to that question.

How others managed to bring up:

Blue passports
50p coin
Retiring abroad
Northern Ireland border checks
Medical insurance
Pensioners on the Costas
Red bus
Northern Ireland electricity
Good Friday Agreement
The Troubles
The IRA, UVF, UDA

within the space of a couple of hours is impressive and a great example of why so many Brexiteers think so many Remainers are just full of scare-mongering hysteria.

 

[mmh]

If all else fails then let's go down the racism route?!

Well it is the usual follow-up to "you didn't know what you were voting for."

I did know what I was voting for. And yes, Northern Ireland didn't factor into my decision. I'm struggling to understand why it should have.

 

[EM2]

I did know what I was voting for. And yes, Northern Ireland didn't factor into my decision. I'm struggling to understand why it should have.

You knew what you were voting for. So you knew that if Leave won, there was a risk of a hard border on the island of Ireland?

 

[mmh]

ironic that NI has brought violence to the UK mainland over the years (and, as many on this thread are quick to remind us, a threat which could apparently return)?

This is one argument I think the Remainers don't realise is counter-productive. If you want to persuade people to care more about what Northern Ireland may or may not collectively think or want, the "because don't forget we're still terrorists really, this peace is just a facade" approach isn't going to persuade people away from thinking it's an awkward and unwanted basket case.

 

[nidave]

If all else fails then let's go down the racism route?!

You are the one who has been saying they don't want people coming over here not me. That implies racist.

 

[radamfi]

This is one argument I think the Remainers don't realise is counter-productive. If you want to persuade people to care more about what Northern Ireland may or may not collectively think or want, the "because don't forget we're still terrorists really, this peace is just a facade" approach isn't going to persuade people away from thinking it's an awkward and unwanted basket case.

A lot of particularly patriotic English people, many of whom voted Leave, are very keen to keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK. Some of them would rather keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK than Scotland.

 

[nidave]

This is one argument I think the Remainers don't realise is counter-productive. If you want to persuade people to care more about what Northern Ireland may or may not collectively think or want, the "because don't forget we're still terrorists really, this peace is just a facade" approach isn't going to persuade people away from thinking it's an awkward and unwanted basket case.

Are you telling me that being concerned about the disillusion of the GFA and not wanting (even the possibility of) any resumption of the troubles is counter-productive.
So not wanting any possibility of resumption of terrorism (look closely at my nick) is a bad thing now? The mental gymnastics of people amaze me.

 

[mmh]

You knew what you were voting for. So you knew that if Leave won, there was a risk of a hard border on the island of Ireland?

The UK has always maintained it had no intention to create a physical border. The Irish government said the same. At times the EU has said the same.

That in the meantime the EU (and sadly Varadkar - although I suspect largely as an EU puppet) has taken a belligerent approach couldn't retrospectively change that.

I've said for months and months I don't believe there is any actual need for this to be an issue at all. If the EU insists Ireland must do something as an EU member, that's for Ireland to decide whether it complies or not. By making it an issue, I don't care about about Northern Ireland any more or any less than I did before.

 

[nidave]

Well it is the usual follow-up to "you didn't know what you were voting for."

I did know what I was voting for. And yes, Northern Ireland didn't factor into my decision. I'm struggling to understand why it should have.

So you dont care about anyone else or the impact you have on others then?

The UK has always maintained it had no intention to create a physical border. The Irish government said the same. At times the EU has said the same.

That in the meantime the EU (and sadly Varadkar - although I suspect largely as an EU puppet) has taken a belligerent approach couldn't retrospectively change that.

I've said for months and months I don't believe there is any actual need for this to be an issue at all. If the EU insists Ireland must do something as an EU member, that's for Ireland to decide whether it complies or not. By making it an issue, I don't care about about Northern Ireland any more or any less than I did before.

This is another fall back position I get all the time when I try to talk about N. Ireland - its all a big conspiracy - may as well say Australia does not exist and its all a hoax by nasa

 

[mmh]

Are you telling me that being concerned about the disillusion of the GFA and not wanting (even the possibility of) any resumption of the troubles is counter-productive.

I guess you mean disolution there. You've not explained why that would need to happen.

Yes, I do believe that warning that Ireland is still so divided there could be civil war tomorrow is counter-productive if you want Leave supporters on the mainland to have more concern.

 

[nidave]

I guess you mean disolution there. You've not explained why that would need to happen.

Yes, I do believe that warning that Ireland is still so divided there could be civil war tomorrow is counter-productive if you want Leave supporters on the mainland to have more concern.

Do go on - tell me why I am wrong with your intimate knowledge of growing up in N. Ireland and while you are at it pick on my spelling.
I love being told how basically, I know nothing and dont understand N. Ireland. It makes my day.

 

[mmh]

So you dont care about anyone else or the impact you have on others then?

When their argument is effectively "there'll be bombs again if you don't care"? Probably not, actually. Fortunately I don't assume that's representative of Northern Ireland or Ireland.

This is another fall back position I get all the time when I try to talk about N. Ireland - its all a big conspiracy - may as well say Australia does not exist and its all a hoax by nasa

It'd be good if you could explain this conspiracy I believe in.

 

[mmh]

Do go on - tell me why I am wrong with your intimate knowledge of growing up in N. Ireland and while you are at it pick on my spelling.
I love being told how basically, I know nothing and dont understand N. Ireland. It makes my day.

I've told you. I don't believe banging on about the return of violence will change the opinion of mainland Leave supporters, which is quite probably shifting towards a gung-ho "just leave with no deal" stance regardless of the Irish border issue, so it's counter-productive. Nothing to do with being from Northern Ireland or not.

 

[bramling]

You are the one who has been saying they don't want people coming over here not me. That implies racist.

No, it doesn’t. It implies that I wish for the U.K. population growth rate to be kept as low as possible - as I have clearly stated a number of times.

 

[EM2]

The UK has always maintained it had no intention to create a physical border. The Irish government said the same. At times the EU has said the same.

That in the meantime the EU (and sadly Varadkar - although I suspect largely as an EU puppet) has taken a belligerent approach couldn't retrospectively change that.

I've said for months and months I don't believe there is any actual need for this to be an issue at all. If the EU insists Ireland must do something as an EU member, that's for Ireland to decide whether it complies or not. By making it an issue, I don't care about about Northern Ireland any more or any less than I did before.

So you were aware that there could be a hard border. That means you must have considered the NI situation, however briefly, when making your choice and so it did factor into your decision, which was that the risk of a hard border was not, of itself, enough of a reason for you to vote Remain.
Just out of interest, what were you voting for?

 

[bramling]

Yes, I do believe that warning that Ireland is still so divided there could be civil war tomorrow is counter-productive if you want Leave supporters on the mainland to have more concern.

Absolutely.

I suspect many mainlanders already go and make the tea whenever NI issues (for that read the latest violence or political debacle) come on the news.

 

[mmh]

So you were aware that there could be a hard border. That means you must have considered the NI situation, however briefly, when making your choice and so it did factor into your decision, which was that the risk of a hard border was not, of itself, enough of a reason for you to vote Remain.

Not sure what you're questioning there or where I was unclear. I didn't believe a physical border was necessary or would happen - we don't have one with other Common Travel Area members who aren't in the EU, but are in the Customs Union - i.e. the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. I still believe a physical border is not necessary, with or without the UK being in the Customs Union.

You're retrospectively correct though, a physical border would not have made me vote Remain.

 

[EM2]

Not sure what you're questioning there or where I was unclear. I didn't believe a physical border was necessary or would happen - we don't have one with other Common Travel Area members who aren't in the EU, but are in the Customs Union

But that's not the case in this instance, as Ireland is in the CTA and in the EU. So it's surely obvious that the same arrangements cannot apply?

 

[mmh]

But that's not the case in this instance, as Ireland is in the CTA and in the EU. So it's surely obvious that the same arrangements cannot apply?

What's obvious about it? There are no physical borders between any of the CTA members. Some are in the EU, some are not in the EU. Leaving the EU, of itself, changes nothing. The one thing they do all have in common at the moment is they're all in the Customs Union. The UK may leave the Customs Union. I don't believe leaving the Customs Union should neccesitate a physical border. If it does, why has nothing been said about the other CTA members?

I'd like someone to explain to me why a border is needed to "maintain the integrity of the Customs Union", as it's a phrase I keep hearing but don't know what it is actually supposed to mean.

 

[ungreat]

I have never read such nationalistic xenophobic flag waving codswallop in my life
We are going to be worse off out . Fact. All economic models show this
Most, not all, but definitely most, leavers voted out because they believed it would get rid of foreigners. Drill a few and they soon bring that up eventually
Now the leavers have had time to learn a few stock sentences/replies/Farage or Mogg claptrap nonsense they feel empowered to let their latent intolerance loose with,it appears,state backing
I truly hope sanity prevails and Article 50 is revoked
But the imbeciles have control atm so...
Rant(ish) over

 

[mmh]

An Irish musician (from Northern Ireland, I don't know if describing someone as "Northern Irish" is considered acceptable) writes on the topic today more eloquently than me:

https://www.artistsforbrexit.com/single-post/2018/12/15/Glorious-Opportunity-Brexit-and-Irexit

 

[mmh]

I have never read such nationalistic xenophobic flag waving codswallop in my life
We are going to be worse off out . Fact. All economic models show this
Most, not all, but definitely most, leavers voted out because they believed it would get rid of foreigners. Drill a few and they soon bring that up eventually
Now the leavers have had time to learn a few stock sentences/replies/Farage or Mogg claptrap nonsense they feel empowered to let their latent intolerance loose with,it appears,state backing
I truly hope sanity prevails and Article 50 is revoked
But the imbeciles have control atm so...
Rant(ish) over

Yawn. You've never read such nationalistic xenophobic flag waving codswallop because it's not there. Quote it if you believe it exists in the recent history of this thread and not your head.

Foreigners, xenophobes, Farage, Mogg. How predictable.

You'll be ranting again. If not on here, to yourself.

 

[eotw]

The UK has always maintained it had no intention to create a physical border. The Irish government said the same. At times the EU has said the same.

That in the meantime the EU (and sadly Varadkar - although I suspect largely as an EU puppet) has taken a belligerent approach couldn't retrospectively change that.

1. Nobody wants a hard border but if you have two separate customs and trading entities then you must have a border
2. The GFA, an international agreement between the UK and RoI, implicitly rules out a hard border
3. The GFA was possible because the UK and RoI were both in the CU and SM
4. The UK is leaving the CU and SM and it is therefore beholden on the UK to find alternative arrangements to meet it's treaty obligations.

To suggest Varadkar is some sort of EU puppet is

• Insulting to the Irish
• Forgetting the deep mistrust the Irish have for the British and with good reason; for examplei last year the UK agreed to the Backstop proposals and has then spend the following year trying to renege on that agreement
• Typical of the arrogance the English have towards the Irish (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46528952 for a classic)
• Completely misunderstands how the EU works. The EU is only insisting on No hard border because of the Irish Government. When the referendum result was known, the EU Commission immediately consulted the remaining 27 states on what the negotiation position should be and RoI said No Hard Border.
• ROI is a member of the EU, in the negotiations, we are what the EU calls a third country. The will always do what the members want. When members disagree they make compromises, for example the prime minister had been seeking a “joint interpretative instrument” that would put a duty on both sides to try to get out of the Irish backstop within 12 months of it coming into force. These have been used in the past to reassure member states (Belgium, Denmark and Ireland I believe) but they would never enter into one with a non member state.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, but the proportions are not the same in getting money back.

Direct or Indirect benefits? No doubt you have some evidence to hand?

Oh - while you're looking, we're still waiting for your considered opinion on this, you seem to have forgotten to update us......

What's this scaremongering about? Think positive, we can have south African fruit. Brazilian beef, New Zealand lamb, Korean cars, all cheaper, list can go on and on. The Spanish salad growers, the dutch flower growers, Belgian chocolate makers, German/French car makers will all go bankrupt. All because we can get the same or similar products/produce from other sources. The EU has a lot more to lose than the UK, Mrs May should say 'THAT'S ENOUGH WHEN YOU WANT A TRADE DEAL WITH US MY DOOR IS OPEN WHEN YOU MAKE AN APPOINTMENT' If the country/politicians had got behind our government it would have been sorted by now.

As you're clearly an expert on World Trade, perhaps you could give us your thought through take on this commentary of our trading status post Brexit?

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

You may even give your considered opinion on the recent Russian led veto of our proposals to the WTO.

 

[nidave]

An Irish musician (from Northern Ireland, I don't know if describing someone as "Northern Irish" is considered acceptable) writes on the topic today more eloquently than me:

https://www.artistsforbrexit.com/single-post/2018/12/15/Glorious-Opportunity-Brexit-and-Irexit

And... one person wants Ireland to leave the EU - I am sure there are a few more - plus a few in every country (including) non EU countries.
I personally think the DUP have been stupid and they could have milked the situation for all its worth to make N. Ireland a special case both in the EU and UK then fought for billions of investment in infrastructure to help the people and N. Ireland become a gateway between the EU and the UK - but my biggest downfall is I want whats best for both NI, Ireland, the UK and EU - I suppose that's just as selfish as people wanting no foreigners in the area in order to reduce the number of people on a train in the south. That's altruistic... right?

Edit:
WOW - I hope this is a spoof. Sometimes its hard to tell

 

[EM2]

What's obvious about it? There are no physical borders between any of the CTA members. Some are in the EU, some are not in the EU.

All correct so far.

Leaving the EU, of itself, changes nothing.

Incorrect. The Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man are Crown dependencies, which means that they are considered "territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible", and the power to pass legislation affecting the islands ultimately rests with the government of the United Kingdom.

The one thing they do all have in common at the moment is they're all in the Customs Union. The UK may leave the Customs Union.

Also correct.

I don't believe leaving the Customs Union should neccesitate a physical border. If it does, why has nothing been said about the other CTA members?

Because the Crown dependencies will also leave the CU.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-agrees-new-customs-arrangements-with-the-crown-dependencies

The new arrangements will come into force when the UK, alongside the Crown Dependencies, leaves the EU Customs Union.

I'd like someone to explain to me why a border is needed to "maintain the integrity of the Customs Union", as it's a phrase I keep hearing but don't know what it is actually supposed to mean.

Explained by eotw above.

 

[Ianno87]

Absolutely.

I suspect many mainlanders already go and make the tea whenever NI issues (for that read the latest violence or political debacle) come on the news.

In case you haven't noticed, the stability of the GFA means NI issues are generally the exception rather than the rule for the nightly news now. Only thing of note has been the Renewable Heat Incentive fallout, which whilst politically difficult for NI, has been anything but violent.

Lets not wish back the 1990s, when at times NI was in the news night after night after night, shall we?

 

[nidave]

In case you haven't noticed, the stability of the GFA means NI issues are generally the exception rather than the rule for the nightly news now. Only thing of note has been the Renewable Heat Incentive fallout, which whilst politically difficult for NI, has been anything but violent.

Lets not wish back the 1990s, when at times NI was in the news night after night after night, shall we?

But if it allows more space for people to commute then whats the problem... who cares if people suffer or die /s

 

[birchesgreen]

WOW - I hope this is a spoof. Sometimes its hard to tell

I suspect its someone who has never really experienced hardship except by choice.

 

[AM9]

David Cameron did, however, clearly state both the customs union and single market in his "out of the..." speech. Quite reasonable for people to take notice of the person who called the referendum!

A lot of things were said by representatives of both the leave and remain campaigns. It is disingenuous to cherry pick just one and try to justify what half of the votes were cast against, particularly give the criticism that you and others here have made about 'project fear'.