313s and 321s for FCC

[Aictos]

FCC are still in talks with the DfT about the extra 313s and 321s coming to FCC.

The 313s will be here in time for the December 2010 timetable, although we won't be getting as many 313s as we were originally going to have allocated to us BUT we will be getting extra 321s instead.

I can't give any figures of how many units, FCC is looking at as they are still in discussions with the DfT but the above will happen.

I don't know what units are intended to be allocated as well as it's too early to say.

The reason for FCC getting less of the LOROL 313s is as many of you know by now, Southern expressed a interest in them and at a guess, will now have the majority of them.

Thought I pass on the gen,

 

[387star]

will FCC refurbish them? when is the timetable change? good news though=more capacity

Hey shame Southern didnt get 321s?? espec as LM owned by same company.

 

[royaloak]

Southern are a 3rd rail operator, so what use would 321s be as they are 25kv?

 

[MCR247]

will FCC refurbish them? when is the timetable change? good news though=more capacity

Hey shame Southern didnt get 321s?? espec as LM owned by same company.

What would southern want with 321s considering that the only part of the Southern network with OHLE is Wembley - MKC which is a through service anyway?

 

[387star]

Oh god sorry forgot!

 

[DjU]

will FCC refurbish them? when is the timetable change? good news though=more capacity

Hey shame Southern didnt get 321s?? espec as LM owned by same company.

The problems with that are

a) they are 25Kv not 3rd rail
b) owned by HSBC Rail not London Mildand or Govia
c) they are 25Kv not 3rd rail
d) the DfT has a certain say with where they go
e) they are 25Kv not 3rd rail


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That was like a massive game of snap!

 

[387star]

just not looking forward to catching a 313 to brighton from chi if i miss a 377 lol they not built for those distances!

 

[Aictos]

will FCC refurbish them? when is the timetable change? good news though=more capacity

I don't know about any refurbishment plans so can't comment, other then expect the extra 321s to have a similar refurbishment to the existing 321 fleet.

As to the introduction of the 321s, I'm not sure but as I did post originally, the ex LOROL 313s are intended to enter service with FCC with the December 2010 timetable.

I agree, it's good to have more of the 321s which means more 12 car trains or even just lengthening certain overcrowded 4 car trains to 8 cars is very near possible.

 

[Pumbaa]

I remain very sceptical of 321s moving to FCC, after they turned them down originally. I think our best bet is to wait for the long overdue Rolling Stock Plan! I really hope they've thought it through well with this lateness!

 

[RobShipway]

I think Southern should swap the Class 313's for class 319's from FCC.

 

[A60K]

Why? They don't have any spare now.

 

[RobShipway]

Well, correct me if I am wrong but FCC seem to be using the Class 319's on short run routes that would be ideal for Class 313's.

 

[Aictos]

I remain very sceptical of 321s moving to FCC, after they turned them down originally. I think our best bet is to wait for the long overdue Rolling Stock Plan! I really hope they've thought it through well with this lateness!

Take it whatever way you feel is best, it's pretty good gen.

After all, it's their job to work with existing rolling stock and also any incoming rolling stock as well.

I can't give out any unit numbers for the number crunchers out there but as I said before, FCC will be getting 313s but not as many as before and to soften the blow, the DfT is in talks with FCC about FCC taking on extra 321s instead.

When I have further news on the allocations, I will advise all here.

Well, correct me if I am wrong but FCC seem to be using the Class 319's on short run routes that would be ideal for Class 313's.

Wrong, 319s are used by FCC on both short and long run routes as I've used 319s this year down to Brighton, around the Wall of Death aka the Sutton/Wimbledom loop and Gatwick, London Bridge to St Pancras and finally Gatwick to St Pancras.

Unless because of the recent issues over on the Thameslink route, FCC have got the 319s on the short runs due to the temporary timetable in use.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'm kind of surprised that FCC and NXEA weren't able to simplify these fleet changes. By that I mean that FCC has 12 317/1 units, plus the 6 321/4 units (could go up to 10). For fleet maintenance/rostering pursposes, it would have made sense if the 321/4s went to NXEA and FCC got 6 additional 317/1 units or if 18 321/4 units went to FCC and the 317/1 units went to NXEA. Just seems daft that FCC have two small sub-fleets of EMUs (317/1 and 321/4) alongside their 365/313 units for the Great Northern services.

 

[jon0844]

Despite FCC having damaged its reputation recently, I do think that they probably DID try and do this - but perhaps the DfT didn't understand the (obvious) logic.

Mind you, I'd quite like to see the order for all-new trains to go ahead and for both the 317s and 321s to be cascaded elsewhere, while being given a complete overhaul and interior rebuild. Add air conditioning, new seats, walls, floor, ceiling and lighting and these trains will probably go on for many, many more years. Ditto the 319s.

 

[Class377]

just not looking forward to catching a 313 to brighton from chi if i miss a 377 lol they not built for those distances!

The 313s operate GN and 377s the TL route though don't they?

 

[Aictos]

I'm kind of surprised that FCC and NXEA weren't able to simplify these fleet changes. By that I mean that FCC has 12 317/1 units, plus the 6 321/4 units (could go up to 10). For fleet maintenance/rostering pursposes, it would have made sense if the 321/4s went to NXEA and FCC got 6 additional 317/1 units or if 18 321/4 units went to FCC and the 317/1 units went to NXEA. Just seems daft that FCC have two small sub-fleets of EMUs (317/1 and 321/4) alongside their 365/313 units for the Great Northern services.

I quite like the sense in your post, I for one would thought it would have been better to have extra 317s rather then 321s but maybe that's all that was available?

Say the 379s had been delivered and the 317/7s and 317/8s got cascaded onto West Anglia duties, it would be nice if 18 317/6s came back to Great Northern duties.

 

[jon0844]

Although somewhat run down now, the 317/6 probably still has the nicest interior of any 317. Replace the carpet, repaint the walls and put on new seat covers and they'd look very nice on the FCC side if/when NXEA gets some new rolling stock.

 

[Aictos]

The 313s operate GN and 377s the TL route though don't they?

Great Northern Fleets

Class 313
Class 317
Class 321
Class 365

Thameslink Fleets

Class 319
Class 377

Although somewhat run down now, the 317/6 probably still has the nicest interior of any 317. Replace the carpet, repaint the walls and put on new seat covers and they'd look very nice on the FCC side if/when NXEA gets some new rolling stock.

I quite agree, I've seen photos of the 317/6s and the layout is much much better then the FCC 317s.

 

[DjU]

Although somewhat run down now, the 317/6 probably still has the nicest interior of any 317. Replace the carpet, repaint the walls and put on new seat covers and they'd look very nice on the FCC side if/when NXEA gets some new rolling stock.

I think that when the 317s get replaced on WA it'll be because they are life expired not to cascade them.

At this moment in time is seems the 317s on GN are more likely to leave or be retired, than have any stablemates join them.

All that said, the two things that could lead to 317s (and 321s) being surplus on the GN are two of the most vulnerable projects going!!
IEP (possible cancellation) & Thameslink (possible scaling back)

So then again who knows :P

 

[Helvellyn]

I quite like the sense in your post, I for one would thought it would have been better to have extra 317s rather then 321s but maybe that's all that was available?

Well it all depends on what involvement the DfT had, and if any approach was made to NXEA, who would have to be involved, i.e. releasing six 317 units in exchange for the additional 321/4 units.

Look at the debate over whether EMT will get 6 ex-LM 150 units, or if it will reach an agreement to take 6 156 units from Northern, who would take the extra 150 units. Recognition there that there is no benefit in adding a fourth DMU type to the EMT fleet!

 

[jon0844]

The 319s are going to be cascaded and given a full refurbishment (and that's not until around 2015, if TL get the new trains). I am sure the 317s can also get the same treatment, likewise the 321s.

The 317/6s look like a 365 inside. They're now very tatty due to heavy usage and simple wear and tear, but could easily be brought back to factory fresh condition with some work - and surely they're all based on a very solid train that has many more years to go even if it is another part of the country.

 

[DjU]

The 319s are going to be cascaded and given a full refurbishment (and that's not until around 2015, if TL get the new trains). I am sure the 317s can also get the same treatment, likewise the 321s.

The 317/6s look like a 365 inside. They're now very tatty due to heavy usage and simple wear and tear, but could easily be brought back to factory fresh condition with some work - and surely they're all based on a very solid train that has many more years to go even if it is another part of the country.

But there is a fundamental difference there, the 319s are going to be cascaded because they will be surplus to requirements after a larger and homogenised TL fleet. This all to do with the big Thameslink Scheme

There is currently no reason or scheme or even need to remove the 321s off GE, it is far more likely that the 321 fleet will continue to grow at GE and the units see off there days based there.

 

[jon0844]

Surely there will be new trains eventually on all of the routes out of Liverpool Street before the trains are all life expired? On that basis, there won't be any new rolling stock for another 10-20 years as I'm sure the current trains are quite able to last that long - with the usual overhauls and refreshes.

 

[87015]

317s released by 379s will be retained by NXEA (or whatever it is then) for strengthening. They will gain some GE mainline work aswell as West Anglia.

It would seem sensible THEN to swap them for the FCC 321s if the numbers add up, but it is of little use to NXEA until then to gain the units as they would have to work West Anglia diagrams with the loss of fleet flexibility, traincrew costs and the like that would bring at the moment if you put a small number of 321s onto WA diagrams, it just wouldn't work.

 

[Aictos]

317s released by 379s will be retained by NXEA (or whatever it is then) for strengthening. They will gain some GE mainline work aswell as West Anglia.

It would seem sensible THEN to swap them for the FCC 321s if the numbers add up

That's my thought exactly as with a full refurbishment like South West Trains did with their 455s would do them good as it's would give the impression of being brand new trains despite not being brand new.

 

[delt1c]

Whilst the 317/6's may have 2+2 seating dont be fooled into thinking they are more spacious than the 317/5's. The seat size and spacing is the same but they have a wider gangway to allow more standing, as a regular commuter on Lea Valley line i much preffer the 317/5 which has a better sprung seat.
Next to swap the NEEA 321's with FCC 317 units would be detrimental to NX as whilst it would reduce the unit types for FCC it would have the opposite benifit for NXEA as currently the 321's are confined to GE services and the 317's to WA services , so NX would have to spend money on type training GE drivers on the 317's.

 

[jon0844]

The seats on an old 317 are comfortable, but the ones on the 317/6 (and a 365) are just fine for me. I've happily sat on a 365 seat from London to Kings Lynn - but usually just 30 minutes or so - and don't have any issue with comfort.

In the winter, the bigger problem is my leg being roasted if I sit near the window and the heating is on!

 

[jopsuk]

I'm kind of surprised that FCC and NXEA weren't able to simplify these fleet changes. By that I mean that FCC has 12 317/1 units, plus the 6 321/4 units (could go up to 10). For fleet maintenance/rostering pursposes, it would have made sense if the 321/4s went to NXEA and FCC got 6 additional 317/1 units or if 18 321/4 units went to FCC and the 317/1 units went to NXEA. Just seems daft that FCC have two small sub-fleets of EMUs (317/1 and 321/4) alongside their 365/313 units for the Great Northern services.

But at NXEA, the 317s are West Anglia/Stansted Express whilst the 321s are Great Eastern