Advance Tickets: Question on Restrictions

[hiddeneurope]

I am a writer based in Berlin, Germany who sometimes writes about railway matters. An appreciation of the high theology of rail fares on the continent does nothing to help decode the magnificently complicated system in the UK. So I hope the learned folks here can help clarify a point or two.

I am presently interested in Advance Tickets in Britain.

If I book Balloch to London Euston with Virgin, a snip at just 14 pounds, I know I am bound to a particular train from Glasgow to London (and get a reservation ticket specifying the train). But can I travel on any train from Balloch to Glasgow Queen Street to connect into that Virgin train from Glasgow Central? Or am I restricted on that first bit too?

Similarly, if I book Finsbury Park to York (taking care to specify NOT via KGX), up come a range of options - in the main Finsbury Park to Peterborough with FCC then on with an East Coast express to York. Can I take any FCC from Finsbury Park to Peterborough on the day of travel, or is my ticket valid only on the last FCC train from Finsbury Park that gives a reasonable connection at Peterborough into the onward express to York?

I would be very appreciative of a comment or two on this from those who really understand the rules.

Thank you.

Ms Nicky Gardner
editor / hidden europe
Berlin, Germany

 

[voyagerdude220]

Hello hiddeneurope and welcome to the forum!

I can confirm that you can indeed travel on any train between Balloch and Glasgow Central in your first example, because those trains do not have the option of reserving seats, meaning that you can't be tied to a reserved train on this leg of the journey. (I'm aware that there are some cases involving Southern Railway, which are different, but we don't need to worry about this)

On your second example, i'm not 100% sure, but would again say that you can catch any FCC train between Finsbury Park and Peterborough.

In general, wherever the ticket is marked route "VWC & CONNECTNS" in your first example, or any other example like your East Coast one, you must stick to the "VWC" bit- i.e. Virgin West Coast, but any connecting trains to/from this compulsory leg of your ticket, may be used, without restriction.

I'm sure many others can explain what i've just said in a far simpler, easier to understand way.

 

[John @ home]

If I book Balloch to London Euston with Virgin, a snip at just 14 pounds, I know I am bound to a particular train from Glasgow to London (and get a reservation ticket specifying the train). But can I travel on any train from Balloch to Glasgow Queen Street to connect into that Virgin train from Glasgow Central? Or am I restricted on that first bit too?

In practice, you may travel on any Balloch - Glasgow train(s), but I would choose to change at Partick, not Queen Street, to avoid a walk across central Glasgow. Let's look at the theory.

When Advance tickets were first introduced, they tended to be issued on larger "airline" ticket stock (203mm x 82mm), which had plenty room for reservation and connection information to be printed. These showed the journey details. Travel on the trains shown was compulsory where reservations existed, but for any train where reservations were not offered the ticket was printed with SUGGESTED SERVICE in the place where the coach and seat number(s) would otherwise be printed. There can be no doubt that at that time travel was allowed by any connecting train for any unreserved portion of the journey.

By 2005, some (but not all) ticketing systems changed to printing NO SEATS RESERVED instead of SUGGESTED SERVICE. This may indicate that the train companies wanted to ensure that passengers travelled on what had been the suggested service, but the rules did not change at that time so it is very likely that travel was still allowed by any connecting train for any unreserved portion of the journey.

About this time, the larger "airline" tickets were almost wholly replaced by smaller tickets the size of a credit card. This was mainly due to the increasing installation of automatic ticket gates, which do not accept the larger tickets. These smaller tickets have room for much less information, and generally make no mention of any specific connecting service where unreservable trains are used.

In 2008 there was a process called Fares Simplification, which made things much more complicated, and the rules did change. Since then, the relevant rule has been

Advance tickets terms and conditions
When and where the ticket can be used
Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s). ... If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

This may have been an attempt by the rail companies to ensure that passengers travel by one particular connecting train, but they would have a number of difficulties if they tried to enforce it:

• an itinerary is not always provided where the ticket is bought at a station or through a travel agent.
• an itinerary appears on the screen for internet purchases but there is no instruction that this is an important document that needs to be printed and carried on the journey.
• the purchaser may not necessarily be the traveller, and the traveller may have no knowledge of the itinerary, other than the information printed on reservation coupons associated with the ticket.
• the fragmented nature of the British railway system has led to different train companies using different ticket machine types and these do not all print the same amount of detail. This leads to difficulties in determining whether or not a reservation has been issued on connecting routes served by both reservable and non-reservable trains.
• train companies which do not offer reservations have no interest in which train the passenger uses. I have never known an employee of such a company to ask to see a reservation coupon.

In summary, passengers encounter no difficulties in using the train of their choice for an unreserved leg of a journey with an Advance ticket. The legal position has not been, and is unlikely to be, tested.

The logic is identical for Finsbury Park to York, but reservable East Coast trains between Stevenage and Peterborough must not be used unless a reservation is held for that train.

John

 

[A60K]

I think you've got a few good replies there Nicky, so I would just like to say thank you to both you and Suzanne for the magazine.

I know you haven't come on here to promote it, but if there's anyone on the forum who enjoys travelling then Hidden Europe is well worth reading - often including railway interest details articles from the editors and guest writers, covering the UK, the EU and those parts of Europe that are still quite a mystery.

I hereby declare that I have no connection with Hidden Europe other than being a very satisfied reader over the past three or four years!

There are a variety of articles available on the website, and you can subscribe to the free e-mail newsletter.

 

[yorkie]

Before "simplification" last year, advance purchase fares on the East Coast route had a validity code that specified that it was the NXEC (GNER before that) train that was compulsory and that it was valid on any connecting train. Sadly the rules have been simplified in such a way that it is difficult to give a conclusive answer.

The general consensus appears to be that you can take any non-reservable train over the portion of the route where you are not reserved. What is not clear-cut, is whether or not you can take a reservable train over this same route, and also whether you can take an alternative train where the connecting service is reservable.

We could look at what's intended, but that doesn't determine validity and it is a matter of a debate what is intended anyway.

There are several topics on the subject on this forum which you can find with a search, if you'd like any particular scenarios as examples let us know and we'll see if we can find one.

 

[hiddeneurope]

.
Well folks, I have to say I am bowled over by the quality of replies here. Thank you so much, especially to John for his detailed comment, but to others too.

And then I must mention A60K for that very kind comment. No I certainly didn't come here to promote hidden europe, but it so very nice and welcoming that a member here makes that kind comment. Sincere thanks. I write for a variety of media, but I must admit that hidden europe is the one close to my heart.

But, much more important, you guys have helped put me straight on an oddball aspect of ticketing on British trains and I am grateful for the excellent advice received here today.

Nicky

 

[ashworth]

This is an interesting one which I had been wondering about myself.

Next Saturday I am travelling to London and back from Nottingham with AP tickets with my outward journey being to London Kings Cross changing at Grantham. I often find Saturday morning journeys and Sunday afternoon return journeys much cheaper by this route than direct to St Pancras with EMT.

I have a reserved seat on the 0837 from Grantham to London KX and my tickets as usual says NXEC & Connections Booked train only. I have no reservation from Nottingham to Grantham.
I have found from experience that when using the East Coast site you can often get a significantly cheaper price by putting via Bingham (local station between Nottingham and Grantham) than you get by entering via Grantham.
The only difference is that by entering via Grantham it gives an 0745 departure from Nottingham (Norwich service arriving in Grantham at 0815) and via Bingham it gives a 0730 departure from Nottingham (Skegness service arriving in Grantham at 0807).

My question is as I do not have any reservation between Nottingham and Grantham, and apart from what I originally viewed online I don't have any timings on my ticket, does it in practice really make any difference which service I travel on from Nottingham to Grantham. Incidentally whenever I have travelled on the 0745 Norwich train, even when I have had a reserved seat, there never seems to be any reservations in force on that service.

 

[Mike395]

That is correct, you can use any train timetabled to arrive in Grantham before your booked trains departure time (subject to min connection time) - bear in mind though you technically wont be able to leave the station at Grantham as you cant break your journey on an advance ticket.

 

[John @ home]

does it in practice really make any difference which service I travel on from Nottingham to Grantham.

No. It makes no difference.

It's interesting that entering via Bingham can get you a cheaper fare. This can work for destinations too. I reported here that I found singles to West Croydon £72.35 cheaper than those to East Croydon on the same train. Both tickets are issued to the common destination Croydon Stations and can be used to any of East, South or West Croydon.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

bear in mind though you technically wont be able to leave the station at Grantham as you cant break your journey on an advance ticket.

As a lifelong non-smoker, I find that the best way to leave an intermediate station without breaking a journey is to approach any member of staff and say Where can I go to smoke a cigarette? Then follow their instructions.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage
C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s station after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

John

 

[moonrakerz]

I can confirm that you can indeed travel on any train between Balloch and Glasgow Central in your first example, because those trains do not have the option of reserving seats, meaning that you can't be tied to a reserved train on this leg of the journey. (I'm aware that there are some cases involving Southern Railway, which are different, but we don't need to worry about this)

......and SWT ! you get a train reservation ticket but not a seat.

 

[googolplex]

Earlier this year I managed to miss my reserved train with an advance ticket (left my tickets at home and 20 minutes wasn't quite enough to get there and back!) from Dundee to London with NXEC. Scotrail advised me I could travel to Edinburgh on my (now expired) advance ticket, which I did and had no issues with from any of the ticket checking staff I encountered.
The service did however start from Dundee so was a sprinter with no reservations rather than a 170.

I've also had no problems with FCC travelling from Bedford to London on a slightly earlier train than that shown in the itinerary (to give me longer for the cross london transfer), and wasn't asked to produce reservations.

 

[ashworth]

That is correct, you can use any train timetabled to arrive in Grantham before your booked trains departure time (subject to min connection time) - bear in mind though you technically wont be able to leave the station at Grantham as you cant break your journey on an advance ticket.

I understand your point, but I certainly don't have any intention of leaving Grantham station as I only want to be there for the purpose of changing trains.
It's just that as I will be travelling into Nottingham from Hucknall by tram the 0745 departure will allow me to leave home at 0650 rather than 0630, which gives me an extra 20 minutes in bed and 5 minutes less to wait for a connection at Nottingham and 8 minutes less at Grantham. It all counts on these dark winter mornings!

 

[MarkyMarkD]

So are you saying that you can use the non-reserved part of an advance purchase ticket at any time the same day?

E.g. if I have an advance purchase ticket from (say) Chatham to Manchester, taking me on a specific train leaving London at (say) 8pm, I can get the train from Chatham at 8am even though that gets me to London 11 hours too early for the connection and even though that is a peak-time train?

 

[yorkie]

So are you saying that you can use the non-reserved part of an advance purchase ticket at any time the same day?

E.g. if I have an advance purchase ticket from (say) Chatham to Manchester, taking me on a specific train leaving London at (say) 8pm, I can get the train from Chatham at 8am even though that gets me to London 11 hours too early for the connection and even though that is a peak-time train?

It's not clear-cut. The fact that a train is "peak" or not isn't relevant. The question is whether you can get such an early train. In practice, probably - as the guard on the non-reservable train isn't going to be interested in asking for a non-existent reservation. But in theory, I'd say no, as a "valid itinerary" is required. You can use the National Rail journey planner to allow a wait of up to 2 hours additional to the connectional allowance for a train, to allow for delays etc, but you certainly can't put in 11 hours. If NRES gives you an itinerary then I'd say it is valid. If you want to stay beyond that then it is risky.

The following itinerary is definitely valid, but earlier is dubious:-

Chatham 1233
Victoria 1317

Vuictoria 1317 (Tube - doesn't take this long really!)
Euston 1356

Euston 2000
Manchester 2207

That's the earliest time you can get NRES to give you from Chatham. I chose 2 hours on top of the normal interchange time, but it's actually given a lot more than that.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

The logical follow-on then is that it is possible to get a fare from Chatham to Manchester (or many other places for that matter) which are cheaper than the peak time day return from Chatham to London Victoria. And because you have to break the journey at various points in London, there's nothing to prevent you never actually going near Manchester.