Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

The staff wear a distinctive uniform. The guards are generally visible and having your ticket checked is the norm rather than the exception.

It just doesn't seem in the culture of guards anywhere in mainland Europe to sit in the back cab, if it's even allowed. They are near enough always in the passenger compartment or operating the doors from a passenger door. Sometimes on longer distance services a "Dienstabteil" (service compartment) used to be allocated to them in compartment stock, but it was rarely used and was by and large a waste of 6 seats.

 

[Meerkat]

Just bloody bin the stupid plans. TPE trains get to have guards. ScotRail trains get to have guards. Welsh trains get to have guards.

Someone needs to drag these shadowy decision makers from their offices and put them on a public, open stand and force them to justify themselves.

It’s just as easy to say that lots of lines safely manage with DOO, Southern manage with DOO + OBS so the RMT should be forced to justify themselves......

 

[Carlisle]

We use private security contractors who use agency people with no railway training equipped with nothing more than a grubby hi vis that gets passed around depending on who turns up this week. The powers that be seem happy with that because it's cheap.

Isn’t that supposed to be a major incentive to convert to OBS operation, it’ll save the TOC hundreds of thousands a year on training routes rules and competency, which can be ploughed back into employing more OBS rather than minimum wage contractors.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd personally think that a second person would probably be better positioned to check whether someone's leaning on the train for example......

One noticeable exception to that which happened in reality in Liverpool readily springs to mind.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Good of you to explain the meaning of your made-up term, but perhaps you ought be less quick to complain that other people don't recognise it!

The only one complaining seems to be you. I had no problem clarifying my point. I certainly don't need your permission to make use of the English language within the rules of the forum.

Isn’t that supposed to be a major incentive to convert to OBS operation, it’ll save the TOC hundreds of thousands a year on training routes rules and competency, which can be ploughed back into employing more OBS rather than minimum wage contractors.

Care to provide a source for that? Because I'm sceptical that any TOC will "re-invest" any savings made from DOO.

One noticeable exception to that which happened in reality in Liverpool readily springs to mind.

Strangely enough the RMT response to that was simply to organise a welfare fund to support the guard's family while he served his prison sentence. Almost nobody in the role thought his actions worthy of defence beyond that to which he was legally entitled.

 

[Starmill]

The only one complaining seems to be you. I had no problem clarifying my point. I certainly don't need your permission to make use of the English language within the rules of the forum.

The idea that pure DOO is different from DOO makes little to no sense. DOO concerns methods of operation. Staffing levels are a wider consideration than DOO(P) is. DOO hardly means limited staffing, even if "pure DOO".

 

[Starmill]

Isn’t that supposed to be a major incentive to convert to OBS operation, it’ll save the TOC hundreds of thousands a year on training routes rules and competency, which can be ploughed back into employing more OBS rather than minimum wage contractors.

Is it? Is there an official proposal for "OBS" operation on the table? Because if there is I haven't heard of it?

Also, if it were proposed does it actually result in any savings of significance?

 

[yorkie]

The idea that pure DOO is different from DOO makes little to no sense. DOO concerns methods of operation. Staffing levels are a wider consideration than DOO(P) is. DOO hardly means limited staffing, even if "pure DOO".

Indeed. Terms like "pure DOO" are just meaningless. And the sooner we get trains on Northern to reach the standards that can be experienced in the Glasgow area, the better.

 

[Starmill]

The differences between each method of operation has been highlighted many times in this thread. Nobody seems to remember the differences, either deliberately so or because they just don't listen.

When the new initialism first appeared, I thought that it seemed to have been something cooked up by the DfT to try to spread confusion, and preemt the Union's position.

If that was true then it seems they achieved their aim! A confused public, even among those willing to spend time trying to understand the matter, is perhaps of political benefit.

 

[ComUtoR]

When the new initialism first appeared, I thought that it seemed to have been something cooked up by the DfT to try to spread confusion, and preemt the Union's position.

I'm not that much of a cynic to believe that but a new method of working has basically been introduced and there is no real clarity about how to define it. I can understand RMTs position to clarify the specifics.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The idea that pure DOO is different from DOO makes little to no sense. DOO concerns methods of operation. Staffing levels are a wider consideration than DOO(P) is. DOO hardly means limited staffing, even if "pure DOO".

Strathclyde Electrics and Southeastern Metro are both DOO networks. Strathclyde services are supposed to always carry a Ticket Examiner with the possibility of fines being levied on the TOC for any absences. Southeastern services rarely see any member of on-duty staff on board other than the driver. Yet both are described as DOO. I believe describing Southeastern as "pure" DOO is perfectly reasonable until such time as a suitable name is given to the Strathclyde model. DCO would have been fine except that in the DfT's eyes DCO allows for the second member of staff to be omitted without penalty. These are important differences that are worthy of discussion.

 

[yorkie]

DOO relates to the operation; it makes no mention of revenue duties.

Northern/TPE trains that I get on an evening are not DOO yet you rarely see any staff in the passenger areas of the trains. Passengers don't want this.

The Glasgow area electrics are totally different; on most trains staff are patrolling the trains constantly. But these are DOO. I can't imagine any passengers are unhappy with this arrangement.

And I've never yet met an unfriendly TE on the Glasgow services, nor been told a valid ticket is invalid, nor been told I can't break my journey. Trains are not delayed for ticket sales to be completed. The same cannot be said of Northern; quite the opposite in many cases, in my experience.

 

[Starmill]

These are important differences that are worthy of discussion.

They're absolutely crucial differences. Of course, the financial structure of the franchise and the method of operating the train doors are two separate and really quite independent variables. There isn't something inherent about the name DCO that means that the franchises isn't penalised if they run a train without the correct number of staff.

Of course we have no information from the government, the company or the union about what the proposed changes even are. Let alone what they should be called.

 

[Carlisle]

Is it? Is there an official proposal for "OBS" operation on the table? Because if there is I haven't heard of it?

That’s the problem, there’s no proposal for anything, a traditional industry like rail has always needed good solid leadership, and government expecting a bunch of dithering pen pushers to do anything other than be torn apart by the militant unions. , is frankly ridiculous.

 

[muz379]

The real issue, which RMT have been reluctant to discuss, is ensuring that going forward all guards take their customer service role seriously as opposed to a minority who insist on using the need to deal with their safety responsibilities as an excuse for ignoring passengers' needs. Instead of trying to get rid of guards we should be looking to ensure that they all perform to a uniformly high standard. And IME the job is much more rewarding to those that try to do just that.

To be fair though that is not an issue for the RMT at a national level , toc's already can and some do manage this properly .

The last franchise used to have mystery shoppers , if a mystery shopper travelled on your train and you didn't do announcements/show your face in the passenger saloon you would be asked to account for it by your manager . The current franchise does nothing of the kind .

I personally always show my face in the train at periodical intervals even if not doing revenue duties . You never know who is on the train and you never know what trouble is going on .

 

[Meerkat]

The Southeastern trains I have been on don’t need a guard.....but some of them could really do with a bouncer...
That’s my issue with this - I would prefer that trains normally had a staff member patrolling the train, checking tickets, answering questions, and keeping the peace, but guards don’t fulfill that need - partly because they are too busy with the doors and presumably partly because that isn’t all in their job spec.
And I really wish drivers would release SWR doors, because having a crowd of passengers staring at a platform waiting for the guard to do it is ridiculous.

 

[scrapy]

This is a line much beloved of DOO supporters but it ignores real world experiences. Cancellations due to no driver are more common than due to no guard. Cancellations for either reason are more likely during periods of disruption which are exactly when the presence of that second person can make a huge difference to passengers. The real issue, which RMT have been reluctant to discuss, is ensuring that going forward all guards take their customer service role seriously as opposed to a minority who insist on using the need to deal with their safety responsibilities as an excuse for ignoring passengers' needs. Instead of trying to get rid of guards we should be looking to ensure that they all perform to a uniformly high standard. And IME the job is much more rewarding to those that try to do just that.

The fact that some guards are not visble is surely down to bad management practices by the TOC and nothing to do with the RMT. The RMT actually want the guard to be visable. They also campaigned for a third person on non gangwayed units for that purpose. Dwindling and now rock bottom staff morale must also surely play a part, along with the total invisibility of senior management. Under the early days Serco Abellio when staff morale was much higher I can remember people on this forum praising the fact they regularly saw a guard on Northern compared to other TOCs. It is also in Arrivas' franchise agreement that they have to give guards a certain number of days professional development and customer service training per year. Have they done that? Of course not, it costs money.

 

[CN75]

The fact that some guards are not visble is surely down to bad management practices by the TOC and nothing to do with the RMT. The RMT actually want the guard to be visable. They also campaigned for a third person on non gangwayed units for that purpose. Dwindling and now rock bottom staff morale must also surely play a part, along with the total invisibility of senior management. Under the early days Serco Abellio when staff morale was much higher I can remember people on this forum praising the fact they regularly saw a guard on Northern compared to other TOCs. It is also in Arrivas' franchise agreement that they have to give guards a certain number of days professional development and customer service training per year. Have they done that? Of course not, it costs money.

The RMT are significantly responsible for both undermining the morale at Northern and elsewhere as part of their industrial relations strategy against the TOC and have a long record of defending the indefensible on all train companies to protect the brothers when management try to deal with their poor performance. Until recently, merely threatening the word ‘strike’ would have forced the TOC to choose between managing and profitability.

So long as the guards have the culture that their personal performance is their management’s fault, that the RMT is their insurance policy and that they take instructions from the RMT before they do their management, the railway will never improve.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Single staffed?

When services without guards first started (BedPan, I think) the term used was OMO, one man operation. It was of course of its time, and the gender bias wouldn't suit nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When services without guards first started (BedPan, I think) the term used was OMO, one man operation. It was of course of its time, and the gender bias wouldn't suit nowadays.

Though in a bus context "OPO" (one person operation) still exists, though exceptions to it are pretty rare these days.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Can I ask a genuine question please? Sitting here as a train user (think ABC, duffel bag, fishtail parka) I can imagine drivers need considerably more detailed route knowledge than guards. Is this so, is it possible for guards to need less comprehensive route knowledge, know more routes, make keeping route knowledge easier and cheaper and so on?

 

[Carlisle]

When services without guards first started (BedPan, I think) the term used was OMO, one man operation. It was of course of its time, and the gender bias wouldn't suit nowadays.

If memory serves correctly, the phrase OMO was always far more widely used on the Underground than mainline rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can I ask a genuine question please? Sitting here as a train user (think ABC, duffel bag, fishtail parka) I can imagine drivers need considerably more detailed route knowledge than guards. Is this so, is it possible for guards to need less comprehensive route knowledge, know more routes, make keeping route knowledge easier and cheaper and so on?

Give or take the door buttons, isn't what you propose basically OBS?

 

[scrapy]

The RMT are significantly responsible for both undermining the morale at Northern and elsewhere as part of their industrial relations strategy against the TOC and have a long record of defending the indefensible on all train companies to protect the brothers when management try to deal with their poor performance. Until recently, merely threatening the word ‘strike’ would have forced the TOC to choose between managing and profitability.

So long as the guards have the culture that their personal performance is their management’s fault, that the RMT is their insurance policy and that they take instructions from the RMT before they do their management, the railway will never improve.

I disagree. Management of staff is the TOCs responsibility and as long as management operate within the law and agreements theyve made with unions the RMT would not have a problem. The RMT certainly have never told guards to hide in the back cab and it's in the RMTs interest for guards to be visable.

 

[Ken H]

I disagree. Management of staff is the TOCs responsibility and as long as management operate within the law and agreements theyve made with unions the RMT would not have a problem. The RMT certainly have never told guards to hide in the back cab and it's in the RMTs interest for guards to be visable.

seeing some of the undesirables you get on public transport, I can sympathise with guards wanting to hide. Would you go and tackle a party of half a dozen youths clearly under the influence?

 

[Starmill]

seeing some of the undesirables you get on public transport, I can sympathise with guards wanting to hide. Would you go and tackle a party of half a dozen youths clearly under the influence?

So the other passengers on the train are left to deal with that alone?

 

[Ken H]

So the other passengers on the train are left to deal with that alone?

other passengers are not asking them for money

 

[LowLevel]

seeing some of the undesirables you get on public transport, I can sympathise with guards wanting to hide. Would you go and tackle a party of half a dozen youths clearly under the influence?

We do it all the time - it's the job. 90% of the time you can have someone get on stinking of drugs or drink and they'll have a ticket or pay up, slightly grudgingly or otherwise.

Prejudge the people and the problem and all you end up doing is scaring yourself - I actually had a colleague have a near breakdown towards the end of their training because they got so worked up about being on a certain route on their own having paid too much attention to mess room horror stories.

Occasionally you'll get some grief and that's part of the job and it's down to your wits and personality to manage that.

99% of being a successful member of customer facing railway staff, whether it's a guard, RPO, OBS, dispatcher etc is knowing how to talk to people and behave.

Never talk down to people, address them in a similar way to how they address you (unless they're obviously angry) and remember that most things can sail freely overly your head. Talk to every single person who shows you a ticket, even if it's just a quick thumbs up, grin and a cheers pal. If you're nice to other people you'll be amazed who will help if you get into difficulty.

 

[northwichcat]

other passengers are not asking them for money

In some cases teenagers will be 'asking' other passengers for money.

 

[Starmill]

other passengers are not asking them for money

The guard hardly needs to ask them for money...

Inspecting tickets and patrolling the train aren't corequisitie.