Scotrail 334 becomes uncoupled near Uphall (26/11)

[Surreytraveller]

And they did it was 6, they would have also checked before leaving uphall that all door where clear in all 6 coaches. So the driver has taken power a departed a 6car as far as they are concerned

My post was in response to another post regarding a driver checking their length on approach to a station. Not on departing Uphall.

 

[ComUtoR]

The driver should know how many they've got on without checking. It would be dangerous to assume the computer is correct

I'm not sure where to begin with this comment. It makes little to no sense.

He (or she) would (or should) check when they take the train over.

There are numerous occasions where I NEVER check my train length when taking over a train.

Oh dear! That'll cause some head scratching!

I have way more questions than any answers. Nothing about it makes any sense.

 

[theironroad]

I know bud. I was telling not asking lol

Ah, i missed something there. Just googled and image. Is the tms the screen to the right of the camera screen above the gsmr console?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Thought the guard would be phoning control that the rear coach/s had been left behind?

 

[MrBurnz]

Thought the guard would be phoning control that the rear coach/s had been left behind?

I'm sure I read in one of the first few posts on here that there was no staff on board the train left behind?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thought the guard would be phoning control that the rear coach/s had been left behind?

If there was a guard, the first phone call should be to the signaller. But I was under the impression there were no staff on the baxk half of the train ?

 

[Quakkerillo]

Thought the guard would be phoning control that the rear coach/s had been left behind?

These services don't have guards, only ticket inspectors / OBS. And I've been on a few trains on this corridor whenever I stay at my friends in Livingston where the train had no OBS come round at all, even if it was just 3-car services. So either there wasn't one (unsure if that is allowed on Scotrail), or they just sat down somewhere. And unless that was the rear cab, they may well have not noticed the rear part of the train got left behind either.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

No guards - ticket examiners on this service. Just for once it would have been helpful if he/she was ‘hiding in the back cab’’.

EDIT: Crossed post - but I agree with the above.
I use this line a lot - to have no ticket check is fairly common.

 

[Aictos]

I imagine the train probably wasn't attached properly in the first place. If it was, the emergency brakes would have been applied.
It would be unusual for several things otherwise to go wrong - a coupler failed; automatic brake failed (although it appears to have worked in the rear unit)

Umm not always, a few years ago a pair of Class 317s split upon departing from Hitchin which is why they as in FCC and GTR took the decision not to leave the interconnecting doors between units open.

Anyway, we shouldn't guess at the reasons why this incident happened as that is the job for professionals such as the RAIB not armchair experts!

isnt there an indicator in the cab to say how many vehicles in the train?

Class 313s on the Great Northern have a sliding indicator which has 3, 6, 9 cars which show any many carriages are in the consist.

The main danger would have been for a following train to have been asked to examine the line, and the driver of that train proceeding at an inappropriate speed

What a load of rubbish!

A driver who is being asked to examine the line does so at a much lower speed, 10mph though tunnels and 20 mph over track defects so seeing as it well might have been a track circuit failure, the signaller will advise the driver of the examining train to proceed at a speed no faster then 20mph in the affected area NOT at linespeed.

So no danger at all!

 

[MrBurnz]

I'm not an "armchair expert"....I don't have the in depth knowledge of everything to do with the railway unlike some.
My questions & other peoples are genuine & are not blaming or trying to blame anyone. I thought this was a discussion forum?

 

[Surreytraveller]

What a load of rubbish!
A driver who is being asked to examine the line does so at a much lower speed, 10mph though tunnels and 20 mph over track defects so seeing as it well might have been a track circuit failure, the signaller will advise the driver of the examining train to proceed at a speed no faster then 20mph in the affected area NOT at linespeed.
So no danger at all!

I know. The driver SHOULD proceed at a lower speed. Accidents have been caused in the past by rules not being followed.
Out of interest, if a section shows occupied after a train has passed through it, is a signaller required to ask the driver of that train whether they are complete before asking the next train to examine the line?

 

[Ben Glasgow]

I travel this route often. If anyone has any questions then please fire away!

One thing I can vouch for is the ticket inspector. It’s pot luck if they’re in the second set of 3 carriages if it’s a 6 consist service. They will change periodically but they usually sit with the passengers and rarely sit in the rear cab.

Googling the cab picture for the 334, it does appear there’s possibly a TMS screen but it may also be CCTV as this loco doesn’t ever have a guard and the doors are driver controlled. I don’t believe the second half of the consist left behind would have been without power as usually the pantograph is raised. I’m no expert so there’s the possibility that even if it’s up, it may not supply power to the train when it disconnects. ‍♂️

 

[Surreytraveller]

Maybe the pantograph lowered for whatever reason, and the stress of the front unit doing the pulling caused the breakaway

 

[Ben Glasgow]

Also studying the picture, can anyone see damage to the connector? It looks dry and I don’t see anything obvious like burst or bent metal. Very curious as to how this happened.

I assume that’s the control pod under the connector and it’s snapped shut as designed so it looks like a standard decouple.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If there was any damage, it might have been to the coupler on the other unit. I'm sure once both units are back on depot various tests will be done to try to recreate whatever happened

 

[ComUtoR]

Someone pressed the uncouple button...

Let's not posit wild/silly theories

Pigeon hit the drum switch

 

[Surreytraveller]

Let's not posit wild/silly theories

That's not silly. If there was a fault ,it may have been okay while both units were under power. If the rear unit then loses power, the fault may have manifested itself when the front unit tried to pull twice as much weight

 

[DarloRich]

That's not silly. If there was a fault ,it may have been okay while both units were under power. If the rear unit then loses power, the fault may have manifested itself when the front unit tried to pull twice as much weight

I think you ought to stop now.

Someone pressed the uncouple button...



Pigeon hit the drum switch

I suspect the former is the most likely cause.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know. The driver SHOULD proceed at a lower speed. Accidents have been caused in the past by rules not being followed.
Out of interest, if a section shows occupied after a train has passed through it, is a signaller required to ask the driver of that train whether they are complete before asking the next train to examine the line?

No, because he wouldn't be talking to the driver of the "split" train. The only driver he is going to speak to is the driver of the train that is going to examine the line.
And I can assure that the words about "proceed with caution, being prepared to stop at any obstruction" will most certainly be said, and when the tapes are listened to after the event if they aren't there then it is a severe rollicking.

 

[Ben Glasgow]

If there was any damage, it might have been to the coupler on the other unit. I'm sure once both units are back on depot various tests will be done to try to recreate whatever happened

I reckon if it was damage to the other connector then you’re right as I can’t see anything wildly obvious with the coupler in the photo when comparing to other photos of the same train. That or it was something that controls the couplers to engage/disengage malfunctioned.

 

[Ben Glasgow]

I think you ought to stop now.



I suspect the former is the most likely cause.

To be fair, the amount of pigeons I see playing the room temperature challenge near stations, it wouldn’t surprise me if it was a pigeon that wrecked choas at Uphall station.

 

[theironroad]

View attachment 55932Also studying the picture, can anyone see damage to the connector? It looks dry and I don’t see anything obvious like burst or bent metal. Very curious as to how this happened.

I assume that’s the control pod under the connector and it’s snapped shut as designed so it looks like a standard decouple.

Without wanting to make light of the situation (though doubt anyone was hurt) , it must have been pretty baffling for the passengers once they got of the train onto the platform at what seems a reasonably small station to find half their train had disappeared into yonder . The second photo of passengers milling about on the platform should probably have speech bubble caption saying something along the lines of 'wtf has just happened here then'?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think you ought to stop now.

Stop what?

I suspect the former is the most likely cause.

But you shouldn't be suspecting anything to be the cause until the professionals have done their investigation.
I propose the couple button was never pressed. Or the uncouple button was pressed in error during the attachment.

 

[Ben Glasgow]

Without wanting to make light of the situation (though doubt anyone was hurt) , it must have been pretty baffling for the passengers once they got of the train onto the platform at what seems a reasonably small station to find half their train had disappeared into yonder . The second photo of passengers milling about on the platform should probably have speech bubble caption saying something along the lines of 'wtf has just happened here then'?

“Sooo... anyone know how to drive a train?”

 

[hexagon789]

“Sooo... anyone know how to drive a train?”

I have a pretty good idea

 

[ComUtoR]

“Sooo... anyone know how to drive a train?”

Or

"Computer say no"

 

[theironroad]

“Sooo... anyone know how to drive a train?”

They'd probably get someone come forward as well saying ' just push that lever' or its the same as some sim game.

 

[hexagon789]

They'd probably get someone come forward as well saying ' just push that lever' or its the same as some sim game.

I don't think the average person could move a train somehow.

 

[alangla]

Stop what?

But you shouldn't be suspecting anything to be the cause until the professionals have done their investigation.
I propose the couple button was never pressed. Or the uncouple button was pressed in error during the attachment.

At Uphall? I doubt anyone has even coupled a failed 334 there, never mind a functioning one. Most A2B diagrams run as 6 all day, so it would be interesting to know where these two initially teamed up.
With any luck the fleet won’t be grounded during the night, if they are then it’s going to be chaos on that line. Literally nothing else can operate on it given the lack of traction knowledge, mirrors/monitors or guards with route knowledge. West of Airdrie would be just about ok though.

 

[JN114]

It won’t be the driver accidentally pressing the uncouple button.

1) It’s guarded by a spring-loaded flap.
2) It only operates the coupling at that end of the train. The driver would have to push the uncouple button in one of the intermediate cabs. And that couldn’t be construed as an accident.

It won’t be one unit panning down and the coupler failing under the strain - the couplers are designed to withstand towing forces at line speed as a relatively common recovery scenario.

These unit - unit couplers are incredibly strong, every incident of similar occurrence has been either accidental/malicious pressing of an intermediate uncouple button or not coupled together properly in the first place.

So I posit: is it possible to operate the uncouple button if a cab is not keyed in?